Unhappy people on the Oosterdam 10/15/05

[xpcdoojk]

Wow jc' date=' are you sure they went out of business or maybe just moved. We have a large store here in Orange County and I know of several in California and other states. When I was associated when them it was privately owned. I certainly hope this is not the case. I heard recently that they had once again been selected as one of the best Companies in the US to work for. [/color']

 

Positive, Out of business.

 

Heather, I agree it isn't necessarily right, but I don't know how they do it differently. Large groups are very profitable to the cruiselines. The key to operating a business is to make money. The problem is that groups negatively affect the atmosphere on any given week of a ships sailing. We all agree. I agree that the cruiselines are aware of this, but until they become so successful that the sailings book at a premium price by individuals there is really no reason to turn down groups from their perspective. Our group has a TA who is a multimillionaire from his internet adventures into travel TA business. I am sure he is making less per person for our 450 passengers than individual sales, but he made one sale. IE he convinced my boss to book with him and to let him take care of the details. Which is easier from a sales point of view. 1 big customer or 225 individuals?

 

It isn't fair, but 450 beats 2 everytime, even if they are in the HAL equivalent of the RCI owner's suite.

 

jc

 

My two out of control welsh terriers are driving me insane at this moment, and I have had to threaten them with a time out. The old one is now drinking water and the baby rubbing against my legs. When winter comes the allergies die down. egads:rolleyes:

[Cruiseoften]

stanfordsgirl, Once we were in the Ocean Bar...which was open for business....with some friends, enjoying ourselves, during an art auction. The auctioneer had the audacity to ask us not to talk during the auction. I very politely told him that we were in a public area, open to the public and that we would not shut up to please him. I also told him that there were other rooms where he could hold his auctions with no one but interested pax present..........jean:cool:

 

Have to kinda sorta think you were a bit out of line :) - a group per se was not involved - art auctions are held on many ships these days. It was in a public area and no special invitation was required - sorry - but seems to me that perhaps you were being a bit loud and the auctioneer was, assuming he did it politely, within his rights to request you not talk (at least loudly) during the auction - I doubt that he asked you to 'shut up'. An auction lover, the same request is made at 'on land' auctions.

[HeatherInFlorida]

jc, fine. Then they can get themselves a ship exclusively for groups with separate dining rooms, 3 or 4 pools, etc., ... set up for groups (I'm talking about groups of well over 100 people now, not small groups).

 

Obviously we individual bookers are important, too, or they would be more forthcoming with the information about their groups. But since they know we won't book if there's a large group, then they defraud us instead.

 

So I guess the best way to fight back is to go the route that Susana has so aptly begun which is to seek and to find where the large groups are booked and boycott them.

 

They'll hear us ... believe me, eventually they'll hear us.

[xpcdoojk]

Heather, first have a wonderful cruise.

 

2nd, I agree. but they are not going to let us know, the internet is our weapon and we can communicate, but really most of us only care about our sailing, not the hundreds of others. It is just going to be very difficult to change things. Not impossible, but hard. Education is the key.

 

jc

[mechcc]

Yes the website will help those of us who search these boards and ban together but there are so many individual cruiser's who never see this board or any others and would not know how to research large groups. Even with Susana's web site, it is highly doubtful we could find all the big cruise groups so we are all at risk of still getting booked on an undesirable cruise.

 

But at this point, it's the start of a solution and hopefully smack upper management in the face that there is more then one unhappy customer with their practice on large groups. As big as this thread is and the affected passengers are only on day 3 of their cruise should be sending a message to HAL.

[mechcc]

Have to kinda sorta think you were a bit out of line :) - a group per se was not involved - art auctions are held on many ships these days. It was in a public area and no special invitation was required - sorry - but seems to me that perhaps you were being a bit loud and the auctioneer was, assuming he did it politely, within his rights to request you not talk (at least loudly) during the auction - I doubt that he asked you to 'shut up'. An auction lover, the same request is made at 'on land' auctions.

 

I'm sorry but I agree with Janice, having an auction near a bar area is only designed to attract more people who are probably not knowledgeable in what they are buying. Some of the so-called-art may actually be valuable but in my admittedly limited knowledge - most appears to be pure junk and the auctions are there to take advantage of the slightly or more then slightly inebrieted passenger. If these art auction are geniune or not just a scam to get the fool to part with his money - then hold them in a much more dignified location that plays hommage to the serious art these works are suppose to be, like a meeting room. Buying art in a bar makes me think of the nudie picture that was always hanging in the wild west saloons. Land based auctions aren't held in bars that are open to the public so that they intrude on the person in the bar for a drink.

[LoveLifeAtSea]

trubey ..... Thank you for creating your website! That is extremely nice of you to take the time and to share your info!

[cruznon]

Trubey,

I also want to thank you for your web site. I think this would benefit ALL cruise lines.

I'd like to believe after what's taking place on on the Oosterdam, HAL might rethink their actions in the future. I'm not sure they will. As has been stated, $$$ talks and these huge charters do fill the cabins.

What HAL is not considering is that many pax may never sail HAL again after their treatment this week (or on other such group impacted cruises. ) Massive changing of confirmed dinner seating is just bad business. Pax remember these things....

After having read these boards the past year+ (in my opinion) HAL cruisers seem to be the most loyal of all cruisers. I loved my first HAL cruise on the Oosterdam--that's why we immediately booked the Zuiderdam. It was nice, but all we'd hoped for...

Dining times do matter to many of us and passengers remember the way they were treated by a cruise line and there are many cruise lines to choose from....

Oooo...I LOVE to read the comment cards at the end of this week.

[sail7seas]

=Dining times do matter to many of us and passengers remember the way they were treated by a cruise line and there are many cruise lines to choose from....

Oooo...I LOVE to read the comment cards at the end of this week.

 

 

THAT is another part that bothers me a lot. Seattle presented this situation to the crew on the ship. They are forced to deal with it the best/only way possible. THEN Seattle will probably give them all sorts of heat because the comments cards will be very poor.....lots of very unhappy passengers. What could the Maitre d', Hotel Manager, F & B et al do? They had to play the hand they were dealt.

[Two@Sea]

While reading this thread I keep imagining an elderly couple. They have worked long and hard for years and years, barely making ends meet, but knowing that someday, if they could just save a small amount each week, their dream of a cruise would come true. And, as we all do, they would have talked about every little detail, like how special it was going to be to dine at 8:00 pm (or, whenever) and then dance together, and then stroll the deck in the moonlight... you get the idea.

 

Now, imagine this couple finally realized their dream, on the cruise this week. Seriously. Think about it as if it was real, because for all we know, it could be someone's reality. A lifetime of planning and dreaming spoiled by corporate greed.

 

HAL is WRONG to do this, especially after embarkation!!!

[kryos]

But, more important to me, what is really upsetting is I frankly do not think HAL really cares. We all know that it's the bottom line that counts! A big group like this one is exactly what companies like HAL want! Money speaks a hell of a lot louder than loyalty. And, while we ALL know that our loyalty represents money, to someone such as HAL, we're just peanuts.

But ... their bottom line could be affected.

 

For example ...

 

Let's say there are about 1500 passengers onboard with 900 or so being a part of this large group. The large group gets all the perks ... late dining, exclusive use of certain lounges and pool areas for their group events, perhaps entertainment geared to their preferences, etc. Now, out of that remaining 600 passengers who are getting shafted are maybe 300 who are loyal HAL customers (or at least used to be). Some of them are like Sail7Seas ... cruises in first rate accommodations multiple times each year. Wouldn't the cruiseline stand to lose a lot more future business by going over the top in catering to this group. Now, not only will these 300 or so HAL loyalists stop cruising the line, but they will also tell their friends and family (who in many cases will also be HAL loyalists) how they got shafted ... and those friends and family may no longer sail the line either.

 

Just look at the effect this thread has had on many of us. We are outraged and we aren't even the ones screwed here.

 

No, I think any cruiseline who goes over the top in catering to groups is setting themselves up to lose a lot of future business. Sure, there is nothing wrong with giving some perks to a group, but those perks have to be such that they have little if any impact on others sailing onboard the same ship. If the group insists that the entire cruise has to revolve around them, then HAL (or any other cruise line) should respond by suggesting that they charter the ship then. If it's a full ship charter, then ... sure ... the cruise can be 100% all about their group.

 

But as long as a group is sailing on a regularly scheduled cruise, the cruise line's should ensure that all passengers have a great cruise experience ... not just those belonging to the group.

 

Anything less would amount to shortsighted and poor business practices, in my humble opinion.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

["Wandering Wino's&quo]

Well said Rita. Thanks for your comments.

[Bramcruiser]

THAT is another part that bothers me a lot. Seattle presented this situation to the crew on the ship. They are forced to deal with it the best/only way possible. THEN Seattle will probably give them all sorts of heat because the comments cards will be very poor.....lots of very unhappy passengers. What could the Maitre d', Hotel Manager, F & B et al do? They had to play the hand they were dealt.

 

 

Exactly. The cruise director said on our Oosterdam cruise that the different departments on the ship do get the feedback from these forms. He stressed how important it was to fill those cards in. Yet, he always did go on about only filling out the positives. Almost like they didn't want to hear anything negative.

 

Unfortunately, I see a terrific game of passing the buck being played between head office and the different departments on the ship. It is head office that allowed the booking of a large group to rake in all those dollars for the sake of the company and they'll take the glory for the company as a whole in how successful they are in booking such large groups. Unfortunately, the little guys on the ship will be blamed for all the problems created by such a large group taking over the ship and annoying the other passengers.

 

Still, I think its the most effective way to vent your frustration outside of a massive letter writing campaign when everyone gets home. I mean if head office gets about 1,000 letters regarding the same ship and sailing dates they have no choice but to investigate. These mixed with a threat of taking business elsewhere are perhaps a lot more effective that yelling and screaming at staff which in the end makes one look like a lunatic and not worthy of getting results. I sympathize with a lot of the views that people have here but if you presented it the way you do in front of the staff I'd be one of the staff members secretly wishing to throw you overboard. Sorry! Its how you complain that is important.

[kryos]

Now, imagine this couple finally realized their dream, on the cruise this week. Seriously. Think about it as if it was real, because for all we know, it could be someone's reality. A lifetime of planning and dreaming spoiled by corporate greed.

 

HAL is WRONG to do this, especially after embarkation!!!

Wrong does not even begin to describe it.

 

Let me take your hypothetical just a bit further.

 

Ma and pa get on the boat and only then find out that they will have to dine at 6:15 unstead of the 8:00 timeframe they were led to believe they had. But, hey ... ma and pa aren't gonna let a little thing like this affect their cruise. They'll adjust. They figure they can always eat in the Lido if 6:15 is too early any given night. Besides, that nice lady at the front desk told them they would each receive a $100 shipboard credit in appreciation of them being so "flexible." Sounds good to them.

 

On the first night of their cruise, they opt to eat in the dining room at 6:15. All goes well. Hey, this time is not bad at all ... and our waiters are so nice. Maybe we are actually better off with this early dining time. They really enjoy the Welcome Aboard Show too ... and since they're tired from all their traveling on this first day aboard, they are only too happy to retire to their cabin by 10:00 p.m.

 

Now, on night number two of their cruise, ma and pa are relegated to the Lido ... because they got back from port a bit too late to make their early dining room seating. After the Lido, which is pretty nice, they decide to catch the late show. But, wait ... what are all those signs outside the show lounge ... "special show exclusively for our group sailing guests?" Ma and pa are turned away at the door of the lounge. Seems the second show is exclusively for the group. They've brought onboard their own entertainment exclusively for them. Besides, ma and pa wouldn't enjoy that entertainment. It's some grungy looking kids that talk rather than sing. Guess ma and pa are out the show tonight. Oh, well ... guess they'll have to find a lounge to sit in.

 

After an hour or so, ma and pa are politely asked to leave the lounge they are sitting in. Seems our group has another special event planned. They are taking over three of the lounges for the next several hours. Ma and pa move up to the Lido deck since it is a nice warm night. They can enjoy the ocean breezes up there. But, the force is not with ma and pa this day. A small contingent of the group members have taken over all the spots at the bar. They are getting louder and more profane by the minute. Ma and pa wind up back in their cabin by 10:30 again this night.

 

The next morning is another port call. This one involves tendering. Ma and pa want to be off early so that they can go exploring. They have no choice but to go off on their own because the group has taken over all of the excursions ... and it appears they received priority for them. Ma and pa were closed out of just about every one. Probably doesn't matter anyway, though. Two hours after tendering operations began, ma and pa are still waiting aboard ship. Seems all the group members have priority for the tenders. Ma and pa are beginning to be sorry they ever booked this cruise. It's not turning out to be anything like they thought it would be.

 

As the final insult, ma and pa miss their flights home. See, they cut it too short, but really thought they wouldn't have much of a problem getting to the airport by 11:00 A.M. After all, the ship docked at 8:00? What was the hold up?

 

Seems the group members got priority disembarkation and then priority for transfer to the airport too. Even the ones getting cabs were all in line way ahead of ma and pa.

 

Ma and pa have sworn off cruising, by the way. They spent far more for this vacation than they ever spent before. Wouldn't have minded if they had enjoyed it, but thanks to the group's priority status, they cruise dreams were shattered ... and they have no desire to ever spend that kind of money again ... for any kind of vacation.

 

Sad, isn't it?

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[kryos]

Sorry ... double post. :(

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[LoveLifeAtSea]

But ... their bottom line could be affected.

 

For example ...

 

Let's say there are about 1500 passengers onboard with 900 or so being a part of this large group. The large group gets all the perks ... late dining, exclusive use of certain lounges and pool areas for their group events, perhaps entertainment geared to their preferences, etc. Now, out of that remaining 600 passengers who are getting shafted are maybe 300 who are loyal HAL customers (or at least used to be). Some of them are like Sail7Seas ... cruises in first rate accommodations multiple times each year. Wouldn't the cruiseline stand to lose a lot more future business by going over the top in catering to this group. Now, not only will these 300 or so HAL loyalists stop cruising the line, but they will also tell their friends and family (who in many cases will also be HAL loyalists) how they got shafted ... and those friends and family may no longer sail the line either.

 

 

 

I TOTALLY agree with you Rita! It just seems to me that HAL doesn't. When you treat somebody with such disrespect for what makes their cruise experience important to them, then you are treating their dollar as if it doesn't count. WE all know that our money is needed to keep these companies alive, so why are the individual passengers expected to give up what has been confirmed for the sake of a group?

[trubey]

I was thinking that one of the reasons HAL likes to do these group cruises is that many first timers will sign up for something like this. Those people will become the new repeat business. Who cares about loyalty? Did you ever think you got some sort of special discount or treatment because you are a repeat customer or client?

 

Many years ago, we leased a Ford car. It was our 8th brand new Ford. When the car had problems, do you think they cared? Well, we never bought or leased another one from them. Of course, every company has it's own problems, but at least you can feel good about voting with your dollars.

 

I'm not suggesting that we boycott HAL—far from it. I just think that their callousness will hurt themselves in the long run.

 

All this being said, I keep wondering if my guarantee cabin for next month's cruise will be a broom closet. susana.

[LoveLifeAtSea]

IMO,

Seattle grabs the groups; dances jigs about the high profit they get from the groups then throws the whole mess at the ship's officers and crews and tells them to 'make it happen'. They do not get into practicalities or logistics or care about the problems. I think it simply goes something like......Mr. Captain, Mr. Hotel Manager, Mr. /Ms. Food and Beverage Manager etc etc-----it's your job to make everyone happy. Figure out a way to do that. And, in the meantime, don't forget we expect high satisfaction ratings at the end of the cruise.

 

 

 

 

Sail, unfortunately, I think you are right about this.

 

In my many years in business, I have often seen this senario played out. The Sales Department has always been treated as the 'great ones', doing whatever it takes to bring in the bucks, and then the Operations Department has to deal with whatever the Sales Department has created, hence, often being the 'bad guy'. It's never been fair. But, that's usually what 'Corporate' wants and pushes for.

[dakrewser]

* It was never like this before Carnival took over!

 

 

* It was never like this before auto-tipping!!

 

 

And I am "voting with my dollars" - I haven't taken a 7-day Caribbean cruise in almost 10 years. But I'm not cancelling my 16-day on Prinsendam next summer!!!

 

:rolleyes:

[elmorejj]

mechcc, thanks for agreeing.

 

Cruiseoften, re read my post, I never said the auctioneer told us to shut up, he asked us to not talk........not quite the same thing. What are we supposed to do in a bar, sit and stare into our drinks while he auctions off some non descript art?.........jean:cool:

[heavenly]

But I did mention that I am a member of Cruise Critic and there are a lot of upset people about how HAL handled this Princess House thing. The impression she gave me is that Princess House didn't want to charter the whole boat so they just all booked separately and then bombarded the ship. She said that they are aware of how many people are unhappy.She also said that they are trying to accomadate them with free Pinnacle dinners.

 

This really has me LOL... There is NO WAY a company is going to book 1000 passengers individually and give up all the perks and profits that go along with having a group that large. Without this being a group booking they wouldn't have access to any of the rooms, etc... I would be furious...

 

On the record, we have a small group on the 10/22 Oosterdam and have the Hudson room most afternoons and the Queens lounge one evening AFTER all official entertainment.

[kryos]

I was thinking that one of the reasons HAL likes to do these group cruises is that many first timers will sign up for something like this. Those people will become the new repeat business. Who cares about loyalty? Did you ever think you got some sort of special discount or treatment because you are a repeat customer or client?

Not necessarily. Many of these "group" cruises are what is called an "incentive," i.e., the company gives the cruise away free to employees who meet their sales goals or achieve other company objectives. Many of those people would never cruise on their own; i.e., maybe for their money they prefer land vacations, or maybe the kids want Disney, etc. In those cases, the first timers will take the freebie, sure. But they would never even dream of cruising if they had to pay for it.

 

Even if the cruise is paid for by the group members, a lot of times they only take the cruise for the prospect of sailing with the group and participating in all the activities the group has planned (sales seminars, awards banquets, group excursions, etc.) These people are unlikely to become repeat passengers because booking another cruise on their own won't give them those group "perks" and the many socialization opportunities available as part of the group. There is a good chance the group may do a land trip the following year, so those people will just join the group on their land event at that time.

 

So, bottom line, I don't think the cruise line necessarily stands to garner a lot of repeat passengers who take their first cruise as a part of a group. Oh, sure ... they may get a few, but it won't offset all the potential passengers they could lose when a group takes over the ship.

 

I think HAL (and other lines that go over the top in catering to groups) is making a big mistake. When they do this sort of thing, they are angering blocks of loyal passengers who will be so turned off after a week of being treated like a second class citizen (paying first class money) that they may never sail the line again. Then, to make matters worse, if the cruise line gets maybe half a dozen repeat cruisers from the group, that will be a lot.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[kryos]

This really has me LOL... There is NO WAY a company is going to book 1000 passengers individually and give up all the perks and profits that go along with having a group that large. Without this being a group booking they wouldn't have access to any of the rooms, etc... I would be furious...

 

On the record, we have a small group on the 10/22 Oosterdam and have the Hudson room most afternoons and the Queens lounge one evening AFTER all official entertainment.

No one is saying they should give up group bookings. All we are saying is that groups should not get perks to the point where other paying passengers ... passengers who are often paying even more per day that the group members ... are being denied ammenities they have paid for. In the case of your group ... the Hudson room is no big deal. That's probably classified as a meeting space anyway. Having a lounge one evening after the entertainment is over is also no big deal. There are loads of other venues aboard ship that the displaced passengers can go to have a nightcap or whatever.

 

But taking a group and giving them exclusive second seating, to the point where other passengers not part of the group are now forced to take first seating ... even if they have already been confirmed for second ... is just not fair. That's allowing the group to take over the ship ... which is unacceptable unless they've chartered it.

 

I, too, was part of a large group on my first cruise. We not only took over the Hudson room in the afternoons ... but we had it blocked 24-hours a day because our bookstore and printer room was located there. They had a lot of expensive gear in that room that they were not going to open up to other people aboard ship at any time. We also used other areas for "break-out" sessions during the day. However, I don't think our group interferred much at all with other passengers aboard ship. Those areas were usually places that did not see much activity during the day.

 

The only possible contentions our group may have had with other passengers is one "welcome aboard" cocktail party on the first night, where the group had a dedicated lounge area, and taking over the Pinnacle Grill on the last night for a special "appreciation" dinner for the instructors and staff hosting the conference. This was back in the day before auto-tipping, and venues such as the Pinnacle Grill and Lido did not serve dinner on the final night of the cruise (forcing you to go to the dining room and present your tip envelopes). :)

 

There were about 300 of us on this sailing and we were a bunch of writers attending a retreat/conference onboard the Rotterdam. I doubt the other passengers onboard ship even realized we were there, and when we had book club discussions there were many times that other passengers wandered in and sat down. I don't believe anyone not part of the group was ever asked to leave.

 

So, of course, cruise lines will book large groups. Travel agents love groups too. Groups are money. But the cruise line needs to enforce certain standards ... and primary among them is that passengers onboard ship who are not part of the group have to be catered to as well. If the group's needs require them to monopolize the ship facilities, then they should be encouraged to just charter the dammed ship exclusively for their group. Otherwise, everyone else's money is the same shade of green and they too have a right to an enjoyable cruise.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[kryos]

And I am "voting with my dollars" - I haven't taken a 7-day Caribbean cruise in almost 10 years. But I'm not cancelling my 16-day on Prinsendam next summer!!!

Same here. I've sworn off of 7-dayers after the mob scene on the Zuiderdam last summer. I'm booked for a CC group cruise in October of 2006 ... with another 7-day sailing tacked onto the back of it ... but I think that's gonna be the last seven-dayer I ever do. Too big of a risk of large groups and hoards of children ... even if the cruise takes place while school is in session. At least with the longer cruises, you generally don't get many large groups, and if you sail when school is in session, it's unlikely too many kids will be aboard. Parents can't pull them out of school for longer blocks of time as they can on the seven-dayers.

 

I'm gonna be checking Trubey's website too ... I hope our CC group cruise doesn't wind up getting shafted with a large group. :(

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[RevNeal]

Too big of a risk of large groups and hoards of children ... even if the cruise takes place while school is in session. At least with the longer cruises, you generally don't get many large groups, and if you sail when school is in session, it's unlikely too many kids will be aboard. Parents can't pull them out of school for longer blocks of time as they can on the seven-dayers.

 

AMEN, Rita! AMEN!

Give me the longer cruises ANY day!!!!! :)

 

I'm doing a 7-day back 2 back this November on the Westerdam. I figured that the timing -- a couple weeks before Thanksgiving -- would be sufficiently close, yet removed, from Thanksgiving so as to discourage kids. Any closer to Thanksgiving (like the week of or the week after) and you can get more kids because families will pull kids out of school for the week of Thanksgiving and the week AFTER Thanksgiving. But, 2 weeks in advance and it seems to me to be less-likely that there will be kids aboard ... too close to the Thanksgiving holiday without being ON it.

 

With the exception of especially timed cruises, like that, I plan on taking 10+ day cruises. :) I doubt we'll have swarms of kiddos on the Noordam's maiden voyage, and as for the Oosterdam next January ... that's the first week back from the New Years break ... I doubt there will be many kids missing school that week. But ... we'll see, won't we? Any kids who DO show up will be excellent skeet-substitutes. :)