Possible missing passenger - Liberty

[Landlocked_N_Texas]

There are reliability issues, and questions about how accurate the systems are at actually determining whether an object is a human or not. On a previous thread about this technology on the Disney forum (the only line to have automated systems), we had a manufacturer's representative claiming that the system used radar to determine "mass" as a criteria for determining whether a target was human or not. When I questioned him how radar could determine "mass" rather than "volume" (which a radar could do), they stopped posting.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, most likely the case. They wouldn't turn around until there was video evidence of a person going overboard, or the head count showed one person missing, but they most likely notified the USCG immediately upon the report of the person potentially being missing. So the USCG could have scrambled assets hours before it was actually determined the person was missing, I don't know where the ship is or where the incident happened so I don't know the response time, and air assets move a lot faster than sea assets and cover a greater area. And you don't know whether the USCG had assets in place for other reasons (drug interdiction, etc.).

 

 

This was my thought. Air and sea rescue might have gotten there more quickly or, being afternoon when she was found to be missing, maybe assets were already in the area.

 

I hope this is the case. Any speaking out against this woman, her frame of mind, or Carnival's conduct after searching onboard is just speculation.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums mobile app

[triptolemus]

The talk of this woman being depressed and suicidal is not based in fact. There is no evidence at this time that she was either of those things. It is entirely possible that she simply did something stupid. At this point, the story of her acting out a scene from Titanic is as equally believable as her being depressed and suicidal.

[cdamion]

Suicide is a selfish already, now they do it on a full cruise ship. These people don't care that they are affecting 3000 peoples vacation, why do we have to care about them? Typical liberal mentality, we need to care about 1 persons feelings and not 3000 peoples, because that person chose to be selfish. I care for the women's family and friends because they have to suffer for her uncaring act.

 

IF it was suicide, as opposed to a dumb accident or homicide, depression is a very very painful disease for people that suffer from it. While sure the act may seem selfish for a million reasons, the person suffering is in unbelievable pain where just being gone is the only solution.

 

Yes, I can be insensitive and get irritated when I am stuck on a gridlocked freeway for several hours because of somebody threatening to jump, or maybe if I missed a cruise port because of something similar, but the fact is it is not about me - it is about the person and their families - and the inconvenience in my life will never measure up to the pain that the suicidal person, or even moreso their families face.

[CarolSW]

I think we are seeing why depression continues to be stigmatized and undertreated. Yes accidents happen, but most who have been on current cruise ships know how hard one would have to work to go overboard.p accidentally. It is less likely that this was an accident, and more likely that it was intentional. I am assuming here, and will no doubt be taken to task for doing so, but it is more likely that this person was suffering from a mental health issue that ended up costing her her life, and raised the rath of many who don't see mental illness as the real scourge that it can be. And so people will continue to hide it when they experience it, because who wants to open themselves to ridicule and judgement rather than acutally asking for and receiving the help these folks so desperately need. Sad all around for sure, and a blow to mental health awareness.

[ISLABONITA]

It is horrific for whatever reason and only an inconvenience to those who missed a port or think their vacation was ruined.

Prayers for her children and family.

Would like to know if they are questioning her friends to see what transpired and what was going on where they left her alone at 2 am. Where were they?

and why was the captain's announcement saying we're not mad at you?

very strange.

More information would help to put the pieces to this incident together.

Empathy is definitely needed by some here.

over and out!!

Edited May 15, 2016 by ISLABONITA

[elliair]

Suicide is a selfish already, now they do it on a full cruise ship. These people don't care that they are affecting 3000 peoples vacation, why do we have to care about them? Typical liberal mentality, we need to care about 1 persons feelings and not 3000 peoples, because that person chose to be selfish. I care for the women's family and friends because they have to suffer for her uncaring act.

 

Amen to what you said! The dead know not anything while the living are still dealing with it i.e. the family.

[Karlou]

Wow! I didn't know Cruise Critic was an expert on the frailties of a person in a very serious emotional and mental distress!

I've read though this thread since yesterday morning, skimming through the technical comments and ignoring the ignorant comments about how selfish people are who feel suicide is the only route to take. I just couldn't ignore the last few comments, however. I feel so badly for the children and the family left on board. They are feeling a horror that the rest of us can only imagine. My thoughts are with them. They don't want the condemnation from people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. The other people on the ship are surely feeling very subdued. I feel for them as well.

That's all that needs to be said.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Karlou

[cruizinisthebest]

Wow! I didn't know Cruise Critic was an expert on the frailties of a person in a very serious emotional and mental distress!

I've read though this thread since yesterday morning, skimming through the technical comments and ignoring the ignorant comments about how selfish people are who feel suicide is the only route to take. I just couldn't ignore the last few comments, however, I feel so badly for the children and the family left on board. They are feeling a horror that the rest of us can only imagine. My thoughts are with them. They don't want the condemnation from people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. The other people on the ship are surely feeling very subdued. I feel for them as well.

That's all that needs to be said.

People have a right to voice their opinions and that's all anyone is doing. Doesn't make anyone an expert or portraying to be one. You aren't an expert either on what type of social discourse should be conducted on cruise critic. Comments that you don't agree with don't automatically make them ignorant. And it is not without validity that some view suicide as a selfish act. Nobody knows what happened so folks are just discussing how they feel about what they think happened. And unless something official is put out by those in charge, these speculative and opinionated threads will go on and on until people get tired of it. Just like any other thread.

 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Dave994]

Every incident that guy brings up the MOB system! [emoji35] I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to pay for these systems in way of an increased fare.

 

 

I would gladly pay an increased fare if the system saved the life of just one person.

 

You would feel the same if it was a loved one who they saved.

[Dave994]

If the systems could be proven to work, and provide an actual benefit in saved lives, I'd be the first one to advocate for them.

 

 

 

The problem is that even if every cruise ship was outfitted with these systems, the statistical sample would be so small that it would take decades to determine if the system actually resulted in recovering more people alive than other means. And once you mandate something like this, it becomes even harder to implement anything else, if and when a better solution comes along.

 

 

 

I have reservations about the manufacturers' claims for the systems, as previously noted, and there are doubts about the reliability, and robustness of the systems.

 

 

 

I find it interesting that Walker doesn't say anything about the USCG's rulings that the automated MOB systems aren't required. Even more than the cruise lines, if he felt the systems were obligatory, why not castigate the agency that regulates this?

 

 

According to Jim Walker it's mandatory:

 

One such system, the Mobtronic[emoji769] system, reportedly delivers more than 95% detection accuracy and low false alarm rates. Such technology is required pursuant to the 2010 Cruise Vessel Security and Safety Act but most cruise lines refuse to install the technology due to costs.

[triptolemus]

According to Jim Walker it's mandatory:

 

One such system, the Mobtronic[emoji769] system, reportedly delivers more than 95% detection accuracy and low false alarm rates. Such technology is required pursuant to the 2010 Cruise Vessel Security and Safety Act but most cruise lines refuse to install the technology due to costs.

 

Well, he would be wrong.

 

But one can simply read the Act for themselves.

 

‘‘§3507. Passenger vessel security and safety requirements

 

‘‘(a) VESSEL DESIGN, EQUIPMENT, CONSTRUCTION, AND RETRO- FITTING REQUIREMENTS.—

 

‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—Each vessel to which this subsection applies shall comply with the following design and construction standards:

 

‘‘(A) The vessel shall be equipped with ship rails that are located not less than 42 inches above the cabin deck.

 

‘‘(B) Each passenger stateroom and crew cabin shall be equipped with entry doors that include peep holes or

other means of visual identification.

 

‘‘© For any vessel the keel of which is laid after the date of enactment of the Cruise Vessel Security and Safety Act of 2010, each passenger stateroom and crew cabin shall be equipped with—

 

‘‘(i) security latches; and

 

‘‘(ii) time-sensitive key technology.

 

‘‘(D) The vessel shall integrate technology that can be used for capturing images of passengers or detecting passengers who have fallen overboard, to the extent that such technology is available.

 

https://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg2/cgis/Docs/HR3360CruiseVesselSecurityandSafetyActof2010.pdf

 

 

MOB detection systems are not specifically required under the Act, as you can see. The minimum requirement is a image recording system of some type.

Edited May 15, 2016 by triptolemus

[Dave994]

Well, he would be wrong.

 

But one can simply read the Act for themselves.

 

 

 

MOB detection systems are not specifically required under the Act, as you can see. The minimum requirement is a image recording system of some type.

 

 

Why the hell would I go searching for the act and read it? I don't own a cruise line.

 

I just shared what I read. Either way, it should be the law in my mind. But I doubt it will happen anytime soon.

[triptolemus]

Why the hell would I go searching for the act and read it? I don't own a cruise line.

 

It took me exactly 15 seconds to find the document and the relevant section of the Act.

 

Figure if you're gonna comment on it, you might want to read it? But that's not the American way, is it?

 

Mr. Walker would do his lazy readers a favor and maybe cite the Act rather than interpreting it for them in alignment with his bias. Ah, but there's a reason he didn't cite the Act, isn't there?

[Elaine5715]

Just a little perspective on having family with long term mental illness issues is that as a self -protection mechanism, you become numb to the years of threats and acts of self harm. If as a family member try tto intensely monitor the person with mental illness, you, yourself take on their sense of safety, you will both fail and you can become part of their challenge. Trying to live your life at high alert, waiting for that phone call to deal with a situation you can not control, that your assistance may or may not be welcome, that after dozens of threats, partial attempts, that that one time the family member succeeds from either determination or just bad luck and then others want to know where's the family?

[chengkp75]

According to Jim Walker it's mandatory:

 

One such system, the Mobtronic[emoji769] system, reportedly delivers more than 95% detection accuracy and low false alarm rates. Such technology is required pursuant to the 2010 Cruise Vessel Security and Safety Act but most cruise lines refuse to install the technology due to costs.

 

Well, he would be wrong.

 

But one can simply read the Act for themselves.

 

 

 

MOB detection systems are not specifically required under the Act, as you can see. The minimum requirement is a image recording system of some type.

 

One wonders if Walker has a vested interest in Mobtronics. And is the "reported" performance of their system based on the manufacturer's testing or third party testing?

 

Walker is frequently wrong. Note item © in the act quoted by triptolemus: This only applies to ships whose keel was laid after 2010, and as I've stated, the Liberty was built in 2005, so the requirement for any MOB system is not required at all.

 

Secondly, as with all federal laws, there is a federal agency that makes rules to implement and enforce the provisions of the act, and in this case that agency is the USCG, and they have ruled that ships can use either of the two system types mentioned in the act, or a combination of the two.

[missholly24]

Wow! I didn't know Cruise Critic was an expert on the frailties of a person in a very serious emotional and mental distress!

I've read though this thread since yesterday morning, skimming through the technical comments and ignoring the ignorant comments about how selfish people are who feel suicide is the only route to take. I just couldn't ignore the last few comments, however. I feel so badly for the children and the family left on board. They are feeling a horror that the rest of us can only imagine. My thoughts are with them. They don't want the condemnation from people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. The other people on the ship are surely feeling very subdued. I feel for them as well.

That's all that needs to be said.

 

Just an FYI her children nor her husband were on board with her. I do agree that some of the posts are out of line. I followed to gain information about if a crime was committed or not.

[triptolemus]

Walker is frequently wrong. Note item © in the act quoted by triptolemus: This only applies to ships whose keel was laid after 2010, and as I've stated, the Liberty was built in 2005, so the requirement for any MOB system is not required at all.

 

I read that as only ©(i) and ©(ii) apply to the 2010 keel laying bit. (D) seems to be separate from the 2010 keel requirement.

 

No matter though. As stated, the Act absolutely does not require a MOB system on any passenger vessel, before or after 2010.

[chengkp75]

Why the hell would I go searching for the act and read it? I don't own a cruise line.

 

I just shared what I read. Either way, it should be the law in my mind. But I doubt it will happen anytime soon.

 

Well, its not the law. And as for changing it, remember, it was not the cruise industry that proposed the wording making the automated MOB systems optional, but one of that industry's biggest opponents, Sen. Rockefeller.

[Karlou]

Just an FYI her children nor her husband were on board with her. I do agree that some of the posts are out of line. I followed to gain information about if a crime was committed or not.

 

 

I missed that part. Thanks.

[chengkp75]

I read that as only ©(i) and ©(ii) apply to the 2010 keel laying bit. (D) seems to be separate from the 2010 keel requirement.

 

No matter though. As stated, the Act absolutely does not require a MOB system on any passenger vessel, before or after 2010.

 

You're correct. I hate reading legislation with the various sub and sub-sub sections.

[SuiteTraveler]

"Based on the video analysis, we can confirm that it appears she climbed up and sat on a deck railing and subsequently fell backwards," Carnival spokeswoman Jennifer De La Cruz said.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-carnival-cruise-ship-passenger-fell-backward-off/story?id=39128702

[firemanbobswife]

Maybe they should just make the railings electrified to keep people from climbing on them. [emoji15]

[Kcruiser2014]

Thank you Suite Traveler. I was just coming to post this hoping it would keep down the speculation.

[triptolemus]

You may be right about murder or suicide, but it was NOT an accident. People can't just fall over the railings. They are far too high.

 

If the quote in the latest report is accurate, I think you can scratch murder off the list as well. People do not participate in their own murder by climbing into position on the rail so someone else can push them off to their watery demise.

[Kittybork]

If the quote in the latest report is accurate, I think you can scratch murder off the list as well. People do not participate in their own murder by climbing into position on the rail so someone else can push them off to their watery demise.

 

No, they don't.

 

Did I miss a link to a video of the fall?