Denied boarding -bevare if you hold a previus us visa

[SeaShark]

Could NCL be transporting ESTA pax under their subsidiary Oceania Cruises somehow?

 

FYI, the most recent list is dated Dec 2016 and not at all easy to find. Norwegian Cruise Line still very much absent.

 

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2016-Dec/Signatory%20VWP%20Carriers%28December%202016%29.pdf

Don't confuse NCL with NCLH. Oceania is not a subsidiary of NCL.

[triptolemus]

Don't confuse NCL with NCLH. Oceania is not a subsidiary of NCL.

 

I"m not confused...that's why I'm asking.

 

How else does one explain NCL transporting ESTA pax when NCL doesn't appear on the signatory carrier list?

[Tomtom70]

You didn't mention in your 1st post that it was escalated to a security officer. What kind of security officer was this? An NCL Security Department employee? A local policeman? A US Customs and Border Patrol officer?

 

Not sure what his title was - but security something - and he was with the ship (NCL guy vs. the checkin people who are "port" people). We checked with someone at the ship and made a quick "denied" decision.

 

After that he didnt want to see anything we showed him to prove everything was i order including showing him the electroic I94 document from the before mentioned immigration site.

 

I dont really see what they have to gain on this.

[Tomtom70]

 

Just out of curiosity, what did they do after NCL refused to let them board? I assume the return tickets are for a week or two away. Are they making the best of a holiday while they are here or did they just get the tickets changed to go back home?

 

Thanks for the curiosity. Of course we didnt go either when they were denied - so we just got a hotel close by for the first night and then started planning a week of Florida vacation instead. So we had a good familiy celebration.

 

I asked NCL in the Port if they could help with getting us some transportation as we had delivered our rental car..... NOPE ....need to fix that yourself. Not a big thing - but it really shows that this is not a customer focused company.

 

We have better consumer rights protection in Europe in general so it might be easier - my contract is with NCL Europe

[Tomtom70]

As a check in agent, when I am presented an expired document I will alert a supervisor.

 

(There are such things as single entry visas, which have little to do with passports or ESTA.

 

My guess is that the student had overstayed their entry, or were not currently enrolled in a US school at the time. There is a type of visa where a letter from the institution showing the status of the student is required.)

 

A supervisor will have knowledge, and/or resources that I don't.

 

Ultimately either CBP or the ship's staff will make a determination.

 

It breaks my heart to see denied boarding for any reason.

 

David

 

Thanks David. Their student visas had expired. But they had left the country and now coming back as tourist - on ESTA. That was the part that confused the checkin people and the NCL guys unfortunately.

[SeaShark]

I"m not confused...that's why I'm asking.

 

How else does one explain NCL transporting ESTA pax when NCL doesn't appear on the signatory carrier list?

 

Well...in the absence of verifiable fact, we have nothing but a guess based on what we do know.

 

For example, people have CLAIMED that NCL did this. Can we prove it happened, or is this anecdotal evidence only? Was NCL on the approved list at the time this occurred, but they are not now on the list? Did the person who reviewed the documents at the time simply ASSUME that NCL was on the list and, based on that assumption, mistakenly approve the passenger(s) for travel?

 

Too many unanswered questions.

 

 

However, the topic of this thread is supposed to by why the OP was denied travel...not what may or may not have happened to other people in the past.

 

The OP was denied travel on the ETSA documents. CBP personnel are all over the port...they could easily have been brought in to verify the travel documents. Were they? If not, WHY not?? Who walks away from a paid cruise because they don't want to ask CBP for clarifications on the documents?? (Seriously, if you can create an account on Cruise Critic to ask questions of uninvolved strangers, you can certainly ask the same questions to the proper authorities at the time, right??)

 

We know that DHS requires a private carrier to be on the approved list to transport guests. We know that NCL is NOT on the current list. That is a valid and justifiable reason for the guest to be denied. I'm not claiming that this is what happened...I can't, I wasn't there, I don't know and neither does anyone else here. I do, however, know that these rules fit the facts as presented by the OP. Anything else is simply a guess or opinion.

[Tomtom70]

If a non-American turns up at any port wanting to board a ship which will dock in America how does the person dockside know they have an ESTA if the traveler does not have a paper copy?

 

If the traveler does have an electronic ESTA how can it be proved it will still be extant when the ship actually arrives in America without a paper copy?

 

Princess has a "Round the World" that has people boarding in Auckland, Sydney etc. All non-American passengers travelling to the USA will need some form of authority, Visa or ESTA, to allow entry to the USA. Without a paper copy how will Princess know that they will not be held accountable for taking non-admittable persons?

 

While it is NOT necessary to carry a paper copy when entering the USA, the authorities there are directly connected to the Homeland Security etc, databases and can check the status of any passenger. How do cruise lines and their shore employees do it outside the USA. The Cruise lines need to know that everyone boarding the boat can get off in the USA as they have the right paperwork.

 

That also applies to anyone getting on the boat in an American port and then finishing a cruise back in an American port.

 

For heaven's sake, if you are a non-American and need an ESTA carry a paper copy.

 

 

Well - I would think that like the airlines the cruisechips also should be able to convert to the digital age and check that online....

 

In this case all had paper copies of the ESTA as well - but that did not help. (the previous Student visa was their problem....)

[Tomtom70]

 

 

The OP was denied travel on the ETSA documents. CBP personnel are all over the port...they could easily have been brought in to verify the travel documents. Were they? If not, WHY not?? Who walks away from a paid cruise because they don't want to ask CBP for clarifications on the documents?? (Seriously, if you can create an account on Cruise Critic to ask questions of uninvolved strangers, you can certainly ask the same questions to the proper authorities at the time, right??)

 

 

 

I asked them to contact the immigration people to get proper status verified but that was declined by NCL.... again: it all seemed to me that when they had made their decision we were just in the way. They did not want to listen to any suggestions or to see any documentation we could show them

[karenbecs]

My husband had his ESTA revoked just before travel a few years ago as US authorities stated he had overstayed on a previous visit He hadn't ( was only there 7 days) and in fact had been back since the alleged overstay He was banned for 10 years It took 18 months for him to prove they had made an error , Had to make visits to Embassy in London , endless correspondence with CBP / Homeland Security He had confirmation from employer and GP that he was in UK at the time of supposed overstay He lost cost of holiday and travel insurance refused to pay out despite going to Ombudsman . They said it was down to US to compensate US say they can refuse entry to whoever they believe has committed overstay etc

Since the ESTA was reinstated he has been back to US but always gets taken to secondary questioning and has to produce the paper ESTA plus his redress number from CBP . But I agree that there is confusion at ports in November this year at Southampton when booking in for TA with Cunard he was told his ESTA wasn't valid and he may not be allowed to board as Cunard would be fined as it was due to expire in December 16 .He said we are on round trip and will be back before it expires but it still took a nerve wracking 30 minutes before officials agreed he could board I do hope this family have more luck than we did in resolving the matter

Edited December 26, 2016 by karenbecs
Spelling mistake

[SeaShark]

I asked them to contact the immigration people to get proper status verified but that was declined by NCL.... again: it all seemed to me that when they had made their decision we were just in the way. They did not want to listen to any suggestions or to see any documentation we could show them

 

First, you don't have to ask them, you can simply do it yourself.

 

Second, the people in the port terminals are NOT NCL EMPLOYEES...they work for the Port Authority. They, acting for CBP, make the determination on the documents...NOT NCL (or any other cruise line). If there is a question, you talk directly to CBP...that is why they are there.

 

I think you should have made more of an effort at the time...It may have made a difference. Posting here and discussing it to death will do NOTHING to correct the issue.

[triptolemus]

Well...in the absence of verifiable fact, we have nothing but a guess based on what we do know.

 

For example, people have CLAIMED that NCL did this. Can we prove it happened, or is this anecdotal evidence only?

 

I dunno... hawkeyetlse seems to be a credible poster and accepting their assertion as facts if only for a moment allows us to explore possibilities which could be insightful or eventually lead to learning facts about similar situations.

[SeaShark]

I dunno... hawkeyetlse seems to be a credible poster and accepting their assertion as facts if only for a moment allows us to explore possibilities which could be insightful or eventually lead to learning facts about similar situations.

 

Yeah, maybe "exploring the possibilities of similar situations" is exactly why the OP started this thread. Who cares about the topic at hand when we can discuss assertions about similar situations?? :rolleyes:

[triptolemus]

Yeah, maybe "exploring the possibilities of similar situations" is exactly why the OP started this thread. Who cares about the topic at hand when we can discuss assertions about similar situations?? :rolleyes:

 

You're a real stick in the mud sometimes.

[Charles4515]

First, you don't have to ask them, you can simply do it yourself.

 

Second, the people in the port terminals are NOT NCL EMPLOYEES...they work for the Port Authority. They, acting for CBP, make the determination on the documents...NOT NCL (or any other cruise line). If there is a question, you talk directly to CBP...that is why they are there.

 

I think you should have made more of an effort at the time...It may have made a difference. Posting here and discussing it to death will do NOTHING to correct the issue.

 

The people who do check in are either NCL employees or contracted employees by NCL. They act on the authority of NCL, not the port authority. As for the effort they made, you were not there. You can't tell someone how persistant they should have been or should be. From the description someone with NCL made the decision and finding someone from CBT was not going to have any effect. You are also assuming that CBT are checking the disembarking passengers have any authority over embarking passengers or are able to check embarking passengers.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Charles4515

[SeaShark]

You're a real stick in the mud sometimes.

 

I think that speaks more for the quality of your arguments than anything else.

 

Perhaps you would be happier finding someone other than me to convince. As noted, "We don't owe anybody unconditional acceptance of their opinions".

[triptolemus]

I think that speaks more for the quality of your arguments than anything else.

 

Perhaps you would be happier finding someone other than me to convince. As noted, "We don't owe anybody unconditional acceptance of their opinions".

 

There's a difference between having a discussion and seeking unconditional acceptance. I assure you I am participating in the former.

 

Further, I am not looking to convince you of anything. I thought perhaps, given your vast knowledge and superior intellect, that you might be able to shed some light as to how NCL could transport ESTA (not ETSA as you keeping saying) passengers when NCL are not on the CBP list -- a matter which is very much germane to this discussion.

[Tomtom70]

First, you don't have to ask them, you can simply do it yourself.

 

Second, the people in the port terminals are NOT NCL EMPLOYEES...they work for the Port Authority. They, acting for CBP, make the determination on the documents...NOT NCL (or any other cruise line). If there is a question, you talk directly to CBP...that is why they are there.

 

I think you should have made more of an effort at the time...It may have made a difference. Posting here and discussing it to death will do NOTHING to correct the issue.

 

Well....I would have loved to - but how can we know how to do this ? There are no CBP in the checkin area where all of this is happening. I really think NCL as the profesional part in this should help us with this.

 

I dont really care if the port people are employed with NCL or not. They are working on behalf of NCL and is NCLs face towards us as their customer. And also in this case they did consult with the "people on the ship" as they called it - thats where the decision was made.

 

Nothing will correct the issue at this time....so dicussion here is just a way for me to: 1. get some input to the process of claiming refunds. 2. warn other people that it would seem NCL interpret immigration rules stricter than immigrations officers do.

[casofilia]

When you have a study/student visa what happens to it when you have finished studying and are leaving the USA?

 

Is it sufficient to just let it lapse? Or should you go to some authority and have your passport annotated to state that the visa stipulations have been completed and that the visa is no longer applicable?

 

If you do the former and the latter is required then the US Authorities may well imagine that you have been, at some time, an over-stayer and treat you that way.

 

I presume that a study/student visa would allow you to enter and exit the USA a number of times and is extant for a period of time or until the study has been finished.

[aladin553]

Coming into the United States on ESTA is fine by air but then they are leaving the country by Sea on NCL. Therefore, they will not be permitted entry into USA again after the cruise because per ESTA rules once your 90 days or the date you leave you have to wait another 90 days before coming back into the country on a new ESTA. That's why they recommend a tourist visa with multiple entries so that you can leave and come back.

I wish they informed you of this before you spent all that money but it's all clearly written on the state department website.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[casofilia]

Coming into the United States on ESTA is fine by air but then they are leaving the country by Sea on NCL. Therefore, they will not be permitted entry into USA again after the cruise because per ESTA rules once your 90 days or the date you leave you have to wait another 90 days before coming back into the country on a new ESTA. That's why they recommend a tourist visa with multiple entries so that you can leave and come back.

I wish they informed you of this before you spent all that money but it's all clearly written on the state department website.

 

That is interesting, being from New Zealand I will follow what is now posted about this more closely.

 

Does that mean that if I fly and enter San Francisco or Los Angeles on an ESTA and then cruise to Alaska stopping in Canadian ports I will not be allowed to re-enter the USA in Seward?

 

HELP!!!

[RDC1]

I believe that Chengkp75 nailed the issue pretty well.

 

Immigration at the airport knew that they were coming from outside of the country and that there was no immigration hold on them so they could get into the country.

 

 

Once at the cruise terminal, the cruise line, NCL, depends upon the documentation they are given, in this case the passports. If the passports did not have the documentation showing that they properly left the country after their student visas and if they did not have other paperwork showing that they had left, then by definition they did not have appropriate travel documentation.

The person at the desk does not just make this up, they will have a list of what is needed under various circumstances.

 

Just as using copies of documents are not acceptable, then it follows that neither would logging into a government web site. After all I can log in and see an on line image of my birth certificate on the county web site were it was registered. But they certainly would not take that in place of the physical document, even though it is a government web site.

 

Bottom line they either needed physical copies of the documentation that said that they left properly or some information needed to be in their passports.

 

The OP did not state if he asked them specifically what their process required, either in terms of physical documents, or entries in their passport.

 

The only other course of action would have been to call the local number of immigration at the port, explain the circumstances and see if they could/would intervene,

Edited December 27, 2016 by RDC1

[Charles4515]

That is interesting, being from New Zealand I will follow what is now posted about this more closely.

 

 

 

Does that mean that if I fly and enter San Francisco or Los Angeles on an ESTA and then cruise to Alaska stopping in Canadian ports I will not be allowed to re-enter the USA in Seward?

 

 

 

HELP!!!

 

 

 

You will be allowed to re enter. If you go to Canada, Mexico, Caribbean you are not considered to have left the country (US) under the ETSA.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited December 27, 2016 by Charles4515

[S.S.Oceanlover]

I believe that Chengkp75 nailed the issue pretty well.

 

Immigration at the airport knew that they were coming from outside of the country and that there was no immigration hold on them so they could get into the country.

 

 

Once at the cruise terminal, the cruise line, NCL, depends upon the documentation they are given, in this case the passports. If the passports did not have the documentation showing that they properly left the country after their student visas and if they did not have other paperwork showing that they had left, then by definition they did not have appropriate travel documentation.

The person at the desk does not just make this up, they will have a list of what is needed under various circumstances.

 

Just as using copies of documents are not acceptable, then it follows that neither would logging into a government web site. After all I can log in and see an on line image of my birth certificate on the county web site were it was registered. But they certainly would not take that in place of the physical document, even though it is a government web site.

 

Bottom line they either needed physical copies of the documentation that said that they left properly or some information needed to be in their passports.

 

The OP did not state if he asked them specifically what their process required, either in terms of physical documents, or entries in their passport.

 

The only other course of action would have been to call the local number of immigration at the port, explain the circumstances and see if they could/would intervene,

 

If you could log into the govt website and see your birth certificate displayed you could print it out and use that if you were going on a closed loop cruise from the U.S.

 

Bill

[sanger727]

If you could log into the govt website and see your birth certificate displayed you could print it out and use that if you were going on a closed loop cruise from the U.S.

 

Bill

 

Are you suggesting that if I have a digital copy of my birth certificate I can print it out on an 8.5x11 piece of paper from my home printer and it would in any way shape or form be considered an official document??

 

Since the requirement is a "•State certified U.S. birth certificate

 

(Baptismal paper, hospital certificates of birth, and Puerto Rico birth certificates issued prior to 7/1/10 are not acceptable.)"

 

I'm gonna say no

[S.S.Oceanlover]

Are you suggesting that if I have a digital copy of my birth certificate I can print it out on an 8.5x11 piece of paper from my home printer and it would in any way shape or form be considered an official document??

 

Since the requirement is a "•State certified U.S. birth certificate

 

(Baptismal paper, hospital certificates of birth, and Puerto Rico birth certificates issued prior to 7/1/10 are not acceptable.)"

 

I'm gonna say no

 

is there a difference between printing that out from a digital copy or making a photocopy of your original birth certificate?

 

Making a photocopy of an original birth certificate was good enough for a fellow CC member to board a ship.

 

I wouldn't go and try it without the original just in case but if you were already at the port and were going to be denied passage I'd give it a shot.

 

Bill