Silver Whisper June 7-14 Civitavecchia-Piraeus: A Very, Very Weird Cruise

[Stumblefoot]

Now I have heard, and been informed on several boards that Viking is NOT a luxury line. Quite frankly, I’m not sure why not, and I’ve been on a quest to find a definitive criteria for “luxury.”

 

We did like Viking and have 2 more cruises booked with them, but we aren’t loyalists. We’re looking around to check out other options, and I’m still searching for that “luxury” unicorn. [emoji12]

Why? You’re satisfied with Viking, so why are you still searching for a unicorn? You know unicorns aren’t real, right? [emoji4]. Viking is doing great things, has 5 ships with 11 more on order over the next 8-years, and is clearly satisfying you.

 

We’re obviously as different as night and day because I am a loyalist as I don’t have the time to search for something better than my current satisfaction. If a company earns my loyalty my personality is like, “why bother”? Now, don’t get me wrong, if a company fails to satisfy or whose actions lose my trust, I’ll switch in a heart beat. Just ask United Airlines.

 

Luxury to me are the simple things...

1) Quick and correct answers to my questions.

2) Never touching my luggage from the time I depart a hotel until the day I disembark the ship.

3) Having my favorite bottled water and fruit in my suite upon arrival.

4) Flexibility and the ability to adapt to my changing needs.

5) A pillow to meet my every wish.

6) Never touching my wallet after embarkation.

7) The ability to dine when and with whom I wish.

8) The choice to dress as formal or as casual as I choose.

8) The choice to have virtually any style of wine I choose at anytime, not just at meals time. And, the ability to order some of the most special bottlings in the world at prices often less than retail.

9) Dining options beyond a buffet; everyday.

10) The ability to order anything my heart desires, 24-hours a day.

11) Sincere treatment and care as guest.

12) Immediate service recovery if something should fail to meet the brand’s promise.

 

PS - BeeMinor, we have always had a champagne stopper in our suite. It's handy because it is hard to knock off a whole bottle on your own.

And JP, DW and I will gladly help you finish your champagne in 18-months so that you don’t need a stopper. [emoji12] And, we’ll introduce you to the Connoisseur list too! I’m thinking some d’Yquem at the bottom of the world will be pretty divine!

 

 

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[newlondon]

Stumblefoot, d'Yquem anywhere is so special:):).

[Stumblefoot]

Stumblefoot, d'Yquem anywhere is so special:):).

Amen to that NewLondon!

 

 

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[jpalbny]

 

And JP, DW and I will gladly help you finish your champagne in 18-months so that you don’t need a stopper. [emoji12] And, we’ll introduce you to the Connoisseur list too! I’m thinking some d’Yquem at the bottom of the world will be pretty divine!

 

 

Ha, I am sure we can count on your for that!

 

We've hit the connoisseur's list on a few occasions. It's one of the ways to use the OBC that we get on every cruise, since we don't often do ship's excursions. I've also found that once you order a bottle from the list, the head sommelier will often pull out other bottles from the complimentary list for you to try.

 

I have a 1997 Chateau d'Yquem that I got with OBC on a 2014 cruise. Saving it for a special occasion... maybe wherever we decide to celebrate our 25th anniversary.

[Cyber Kat]

Cyber Kat: first, I don’t think that BeeMinor experienced a ‘luxury’ trip.

 

Our experiences with SS have been quiet, refined, unobtrusive service. It’s not so much ‘unlimited booze’ as a freedom to not have to show a card every time you want something. If something is possible, it will be done.

 

There are no line ups, either to get on board, or while on the ship. The ships are (normally) quiet and calm. The crew is there to see to the passengers’ needs and wants.

 

[snip]

 

One of the hallmarks of luxury is the freedom of spontaneous dining with new friends.

 

Luxury isn’t so much stuff as attitude, space, and service.

 

 

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I didn’t want to hijack BeeMinor’s very interesting trip report. I thought I could condense a response down to one post, but it was getting all jumbled.

 

First to all who thought that I was under the impression that BeeMinors cruise was typical for SS - fear not! I knew from the start that it was an outlier and said so in my first post.

 

I was mainly looking at other aspects - namely the wine issues and some of the service issues - in my continuing quest for the definition of luxury. I’m still trying to figure out why Silversea, Crystal and Regent are considered “luxury,” while Viking, Oceania and Azamara are not.

 

So far I only have experience on Viking. We have an Azamara cruise booked for the spring, so I will have that experience to add to my comparison list.

 

The atmosphere on Viking was quiet and calm with the exception of Torshavn (the sort of nightclub) when the band got going. And the Beatles show - which was just a fun party near the end of the cruise. It was sedate in comparison to deck parties on mainstream lines for sure.

 

The service was quiet and efficient but friendly.

 

There was no card showing except when entering and leaving the ship.

 

There are no lines any where with the possible exception of the Gelato station. It’s very popular and you might find 2 or 3 people ahead of you.

 

Though reservations are required for the 2 alternative restaurants, they are very flexible if you have made new friends you would like to dine with. The main Restaurant has no such requirements and is very flexible.

[UKCruiseJeff]

A very important component of luxury and quality is the guarantee of consistency. Customers should be clear exactly what it is that they should expect and the product shouldn’t be a lottery. It should meet or exceed their expectstions and not dissapoint.

 

If you agree therefore that Beeminor and others including my wife and I did not enjoy a luxury cruise because of the 220 boozecruisers and if Silversea persists in reserving the right to repeat the experience on future cruises and keeping it secret ie without the guarantee of pro-actively informing their retail customers, therefore offereing them the opportunity of exercising a fully informed choice whether to proceed or not, then I think it logically follows that they do not provide a luxury product.

 

When you inject a lottery aspect into the quality of the experience, the product therefore is unreliable and it ceases to be a luxury product.

 

IMHO. :)

Edited July 5, 2018 by UKCruiseJeff

[RachelG]

Having cruised many nights on Silversea, the described cruise sounds awful and nothing like any I have experienced. I would be upset too, and as Jeff points out, a large part of luxury is being able to count on consistency ( in a good way).

 

But that said, to the OP, I would give Silversea a second chance. In 100 nights onboard, we have never experienced anything this dreadful.

[SLSD]

I have been reading this thread with interest. I am just so sorry that anyone had to go through this kind of thing. I've sailed with Silversea once--and that was over 10 years ago. The passengers on that cruise were extremely quiet and sedate. Lately, we have been sailing with Seabourn and have been very pleased. I have to say that reading about this cruise will discourage us from booking a cruise with Silversea.

[tgh]

Of course aberrations that "disturb" the ambience are extremely common and are glossed over by many.

 

Historically there was always minor maintenance happening but now full blown renovation is happening regularly with all sorts of impediments to passengers ; shipping containers on the deck flooring ripped up..dust noise...all sorts of stuff is very common.

 

The cruise line only agrees to give you a cruise .. somewhere .. anywhere.. They can leave port , hang around outside, eventually come back in and they have given you a cruise : There is no warranty in terms of where you will go or when.. no matter what the glossy pics allude.

Claims for this category of underperformance are very common and SS has a well oiled process to deal with the issue.

 

All cruise lines operate with massive contingent liability to underperformance, either due to weather , poor planning and logistics , or maintenance issues. If it was possible to hold them to specific performance (delivering exactly what they promise) most would be broke in a year. They have , therefore , very well developed processes to avoid fiscal responsibility for carriage failure. The terms of passage contract is completely loaded in favour of the carrier ; the passenger has few rights. In some jurisdictions passengers do have redress options , but these options are well understood by the carrier and settlement gifts with no admission of guilt but delivered with conditional silence clauses are well organised and utilised

 

Caveat Emptor….

[UKCruiseJeff]

Of course aberrations that "disturb" the ambience are extremely common and are glossed over by many.

 

Historically there was always minor maintenance happening but now full blown renovation is happening regularly with all sorts of impediments to passengers ; shipping containers on the deck flooring ripped up..dust noise...all sorts of stuff is very common.

 

The cruise line only agrees to give you a cruise .. somewhere .. anywhere.. They can leave port , hang around outside, eventually come back in and they have given you a cruise : There is no warranty in terms of where you will go or when.. no matter what the glossy pics allude.

Claims for this category of underperformance are very common and SS has a well oiled process to deal with the issue.

 

All cruise lines operate with massive contingent liability to underperformance, either due to weather , poor planning and logistics , or maintenance issues. If it was possible to hold them to specific performance (delivering exactly what they promise) most would be broke in a year. They have , therefore , very well developed processes to avoid fiscal responsibility for carriage failure. The terms of passage contract is completely loaded in favour of the carrier ; the passenger has few rights. In some jurisdictions passengers do have redress options , but these options are well understood by the carrier and settlement gifts with no admission of guilt but delivered with conditional silence clauses are well organised and utilised

 

Caveat Emptor….

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3288/contents/made

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/contents/enacted

[tgh]

Perhaps most people suffering holiday discomforts accept them as the luck of the draw and are insufficiently irritated or motivated to actively seek legal redress ; it is a daunting prospect.

The cruise lines know this and hence their strategy works.

It takes a considerable amount of application, intelligence , and luck to successfully prosecute.

[UKCruiseJeff]

Perhaps most people suffering holiday discomforts accept them as the luck of the draw and are insufficiently irritated or motivated to actively seek legal redress ; it is a daunting prospect.

The cruise lines know this and hence their strategy works.

It takes a considerable amount of application, intelligence , and luck to successfully prosecute.

 

https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money

[Bill B]

Caveat Emptor….

 

I'm of the opinion if most people read their 'Passage Contract' they would never book a cruise.

 

The lines (as you point out) guarantee the pax essentially... nothing! :o

 

Whenever I have a cruise booked, I have my 'fingers crossed'.

 

The best customer sevice I have ever received was from a line most SS pax would never consider - Costa.

I had two separate bookings on two different ships - I was to disembark the first ship and embark the second ship the same day in the same port (Civatvecchia)... kind of a 'Back-To-Back', but on two different ships. The bookings were not 'linked'.

 

The problem arose when, after final payment (and within the 50% penalty period), Costa changed the embarkation port for the 2nd cruise from Civitavecchia to Napoli. They gave me the option of accepting the change, or a full refund (as it should be). However, now, to cancel the 1st cruise, I was in the 50% penalty period.

 

I emailed Costa Asia/Pacific (I was living in China), explained the situation, and was surprised when, without question, they cancelled both cruises and cheerfully refunded 100% of what I had paid. The money was credited to my VISA card within two days! Perhaps I was just lucky with the 'billing cycle'... but... :)

 

They could, legally, have kept 50% of what I paid for the 1st cruise. They were pleasant and expedient. I felt they went 'above & beyond'. All-in-all, superlative customer service! :D

Edited July 6, 2018 by Bill B

[jollyjones]

Perhaps most people suffering holiday discomforts accept them as the luck of the draw and are insufficiently irritated or motivated to actively seek legal redress ; it is a daunting prospect.

.

 

Perhaps some of us simply don't want to. Perhaps some of us simply feel that just because something didn't work out well, doesn't mean we deserve to be compensated for it. Perhaps some of us enjoy life more by simply going with the flow and enjoying what we have, rather than demanding redress for what we don't have.

[SLSD]

At the same time, Silversea sets up certain expectations. And, I do believe that there is an implicit promise that your experience will be what they advertise. I do believe that a class action lawsuit might reap some rewards for those who were harmed. Hopefully, there is a guest list published and available that could help a class come together. I am not an attorney, but I have been married to one for over 40 years. Yes, there is something to be said for going with the flow--but the experience I am reading about here appears to be beyond the pale.

[UKCruiseJeff]

At the same time, Silversea sets up certain expectations. And, I do believe that there is an implicit promise that your experience will be what they advertise. I do believe that a class action lawsuit might reap some rewards for those who were harmed. Hopefully, there is a guest list published and available that could help a class come together. I am not an attorney, but I have been married to one for over 40 years. Yes, there is something to be said for going with the flow--but the experience I am reading about here appears to be beyond the pale.

 

Hi, thanks.

 

Class actions don't really exist in the UK although we do have a version called "Group Action". It isn't really needed as much here as say the US as we have clear consumer laws and rights and have relatively easy access to the courts on consumer issues.

 

I think the issue is simply this. Silversea promised many people on board that the company was well aware that it had made a serious error by booking this group onto a retail cruise rather than insisting on a full charter. Mark has confirmed that the group booking failed to meet normal criteria with respect to both size and the careful checking of "demographics". The combination of those two issues created the problem. Then, in order to placate customers and keep the people complaining under control false promises and hollow assurances were given that was taken on trust but have not been delivered. So you have many customers who started by simply being annoyed and angry at what they endured on the cruise being compounded by subsequently feeling that they had been suckered and cheated.

 

That is compounded by Silversea not recognising that an appropriate response would be to do exactly as they promised ie to treat each individual complaint on an individual basis. This is an important difference. For Beeminor for example this trip was a part of a bigger European trip. For us, it was the entire trip and for personal reasons I wanted my wife to simply have a quiet week on Whisper which we know well. It was the ship that was the destination and we planned simply to leave the ship in each port for lunch. As it turned out the only time that the ship was a littler quieter was during the day when many of the boozecroozers were on arranged trips. Also when we were queuing up for the return flight we met several couples and triples all planning to request full refunds on their return but believing that they would be received receptively and positively based on the reassurances they had received. However, one elderly gent who was traveling by himself said that he had complained but did not intend to pursue it as he was quite infirm had planned to spend his days on his balcony or in his suite which is where he remained for most of the cruise. He was thrilled to bits that each evening he was invited to a staff table. So each traveler had different needs and different levels of annoyance.

 

If Silversea had done exactly as they had said and treated each complaint on an individual basis then the elderly gentleman would not have been offered a refund against a future cruise. So he was a satisfied customer before that is now even happier because he has a discount he clearly didn't feel he justified. Beeminor having had a bad cruise has the background that this was a component of something bigger and it seems was planning a further cruise and so a discount is of some use and has decided is satisfied with the offer and it seems will not be pursuing it. We had only booked the cruise really for a change of scenery and some peace and quiet. We hadn't planned to spend much of the day in a suite with barely functioning TV. There were other issues with the cruise that I haven't bothered discussing on CC, but in any event none of those even collectively would have nudged others to complain but not u, because they were issues we were largely expecting and were fine with. We set our expectations low and told ourselves that nothing SS could do would make us grumpy.

 

So the bottom line is that offering everyone a discount on a future cruise is an expensive, lazy and inappropriate way to compensate people. It may be something you might do in order to say sorry and generate goodwill, but it doesn't put it right for everyone because it may work for some people with some disappointments in some countries but fails to acknowledge that everyone's needs and experience was different against the background of the core promises that Silversea makes. Overlaid over that is that some customers have no consumer protection so the discount is a good result because it is "better than nothing" whereas other countries are much more consumer friendly.

 

Essentially Silversea has admitted it provided a cruise that wasn't of the quality customers should have received and then refused to resolve it. In the UK that is unlikely to work and will only result in a likely higher award with some extra and perfectly avoidable costs compared to simply resolving it with us. If they had simply delivered on the reassurances we may have even felt confident enough not to have cancelled the longer more expensive cruise we had been looking forward to in 2019 for which we are still waiting for a refund ....

[SLSD]

Just one other thought (especially for those from the United States on this cruise) is this: Just because a contract says particular things--does not mean those words will hold up in court. Written words are just that--but not always enforceable, especially if (in this case) a cruise line knowingly booked a charter that they KNEW would significantly impact other customers. Just a thought to consider.

 

 

I will ask my husband when he gets back home today whether UK citizens could join a class action suit in the US. I THINK the answer is yes. I'll report back. I do understand that various passengers expectations were not met in varying degrees--but the fact remains that Silversea advertised one thing (elegance, culture, sophistication) and delivered another. One might argue that they could not have known how these passengers (the partial charter) would behave. That argument could be countered by pointing out that they have experienced this before and could be expected to know what could happen.

Edited July 6, 2018 by SLSD

[UKCruiseJeff]

Just one other thought (especially for those from the United States on this cruise) is this: Just because a contract says particular things--does not mean those words will hold up in court. Written words are just that--but not always enforceable, especially if (in this case) a cruise line knowingly booked a charter that they KNEW would significantly impact other customers. Just a thought to consider.

 

Your post crossed with mine which you may have missed ..... you make the point well.

 

We had international clients and it was extremely tough advising executives when they went from the UK to the US on assignments and in the other direction. The thing I have always found bewildering is how little consumer protection exists - virtually none in the US - and how little pressure there seems for it. I presume it is because big business finances elections and big business does not want consumer protection. We have clear laws that state that any clause in a consumer contract that is "unfair" can be ignored, and that includes clauses the negate the need to deliver what you promised. The laws compel corporations to tell customers of any significant changes to what they offer so that consumers can make an informed choice whether to proceed or not without any penalty but WITH compensation when appropriate.

[UKCruiseJeff]

I will ask my husband when he gets back home today whether UK citizens could join a class action suit in the US. I THINK the answer is yes. I'll report back. I do understand that various passengers expectations were not met in varying degrees--but the fact remains that Silversea advertised one thing (elegance, culture, sophistication) and delivered another. One might argue that they could not have known how these passengers (the partial charter) would behave. That argument could be countered by pointing out that they have experienced this before and could be expected to know what could happen.

 

Thanks ... to be clear .... we do not need one or want one. Although as you quite rightly say the promise is the same, the loss is different for different people. But thanks for the kind thought. :) I want my claim heard by a British Judge against the background of OUR consumer laws rather than what you currently do not have in the US ....;)

 

Our system is that within our Government IT system you log in the same system you complete your tax returns and find out your pension and complete the Money Claim online. The claim/summons is issued within 24 hours. The defendant has to respond within 14 days and if they fail you request judgement. If it goes to a hearing it is normally in a small room and is quite straight forward. This issue is at the moment with no offer having been made - straightforward.

[SLSD]

Exactly UKCruiseJeff--however, that does NOT mean that the courts will not hold for a consumer who had certain expectations based on advertising etc. I find this a fascinating legal issue.

 

I'll say this--I once served on a jury in the United States where the issue was whether a taxi driver was an independent contractor or an employee of the taxi company. The contract the driver had signed stated clearly that he/she was an independent contractor and NOT an employee of the company. The jury found otherwise. We found that just because the contract said a particular thing--did not make it true. We found that the driver was indeed an employee. I think the same kind of thing can hold for a cruise contract. There are certain duties the cruise line has to its business invitees/guests, no matter what the words of the contract say. You have to look to advertising--what is held out as usual on the web site, etc. etc.

 

Of course the more documentation the passengers could present--the better.

[SLSD]

I know nothing about English law Jeff. It is great news if you have a straightforward avenue toward justice here.

[UKCruiseJeff]

I know nothing about English law Jeff. It is great news if you have a straightforward avenue toward justice here.

 

 

I don't suggest you read them, they are extremely boring ... but you may want to glance down the headings under these two bits of legislation ...

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1.../contents/made

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...ntents/enacted

 

..... for example ....

PART 2 Unfair terms

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/part/2/enacted

[newlondon]

SLSD, I also have served on a jury. The facts in your case must have been very interesting in order to negate a specific statement.

I would have had a lot of difficulty overriding the contract terms. I have followed UKJ's saga with interest and will be surprised if, after negotiating with Mark Conroy, a satisfactory compromise does not result.

[SLSD]

newlondon, I don't think it is that unusual. In the case, the taxi company had a driver sign a contract saying that they were an independent contractor. In reality, the company provided the car, paid the driver, gave them the customers, etc. etc. When there was an accident, the company said they were not liable because the driver was independent and not their employee. Just because a piece of paper had been signed saying the driver was independent, did not make it so.

[tgh]

Perhaps some of us simply don't want to. Perhaps some of us simply feel that just because something didn't work out well, doesn't mean we deserve to be compensated for it. Perhaps some of us enjoy life more by simply going with the flow and enjoying what we have, rather than demanding redress for what we don't have.

 

Indeed, why amplify the pain ? Moving on is what most of us do but sadly this plays into the hands of providers who seek to obfuscate their corporate failings by pruning services. I note the cheerful resignation of a cruiser on another thread where the line has withdrawn diving services. As far as I am aware , Expedition cruises in warm waters have always advertised the availability of diving… what next ?

 

There is a veritable sea of upwardly aspirational cruisers seeking to experience "6 star luxury". The vast majority will have zero understanding of the kind of service and appointments that may exist with a genuine luxury experience.

As long as this demographic is populous, the hard and soft product deterioration will likely escalate, rather than improve.