How will Florida's ban on vaccine passports effect cruise ship requirements?

[quinceemom]

I'm astounded that you were able to describe it so accurately.  It's completely inhumane that politicians have to treat this issue as what is best to get them re-elected and not give consideration to their own voters.  If his edict stands and cruise lines do decide that they will sail out of Florida, my bet is that cruise lines will not let unvaccinated passengers off the ships in international destinations.  While they may not be able proof of vaccine to board in Florida, they can sure ask for it if you want to disembark outside of US or the destinations can sure ask for it.  Some of these countries have worked much harder than we did to keep the virus under control.  At any rate, all the updates in last 24 hrs from CDC have been gifts!!!!  Hopefully, we've come through the worst of it and will soon be enjoying our favorite adult beverages and watching sunset from the back decks of our favorite ships.  

 

[Donald]

With the virus still running out of control in many parts of the USA, I would be extremely reluctant to visit that country for any reason - even an emergency. It is just too risky.

 

Currently Florida is reporting higher infection and death numbers than many individual countries. There is no way I would consider going there for any reason - even a cruise.

[KeepCalmBearOn]

On 5/4/2021 at 11:00 AM, Cienfuegos said:

I suspect Governor DeSantis is playing to the cheap seats on this one.  He's in a win-win situation as far as his political ambitions for 2022 (re-election bid?) and 2024 (Presidential bid?).

 

I would not dismiss Gov. DeSantis' concerns so blithely. We used to leave medical decisions (i.e. to vaccinate or not) to a patient and their doctor. The sanctity of those decisions isn't supposed to be violated. The right of privacy, especially medical privacy, has been pretty firmly established in U.S. law for over 50 years now.

 

On 5/6/2021 at 4:32 AM, CruiserBruce said:

The fact that a company is publicly traded doesn't matter. You think a McDonalds, or a Costco, for example, can't require masks on their property? Really? They can, and do. The airlines (all publicly traded)required masks before the Executive Order.

 

Costco and McDonald's can require you to wear a mask in their store, but that isn't the question. The question is, can they require you to be fully vaccinated in order to enter their store. California's  Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. Civil Code, section 51 et seq.) declares that Californians “are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges, or services in all business establishments of every kind whatsoever,” and prohibits business establishments from discriminating on the basis of sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, medical condition, marital status or sexual orientation.

 

On 5/6/2021 at 3:20 PM, Cienfuegos said:

The situation seems to be setting up to be the CDC and the cruise lines favoring all, or mostly all, passengers and crew to be vaccinated, and Governor DeSantis opposing vaccinations as a condition for service in Florida.

 

To be clear, Gov. DeSantis isn't opposing vaccinations. He is doing all he can to get people vaccinated in FL as quickly as possible. What he is opposing is the violation of people's privacy rights. We have a federal law that punishes entities that release or expose your private medical records. Can we now say it is okay to force you to release or expose your private medical records?

 

On 5/9/2021 at 1:51 PM, jimgev said:

Let's get to the bottom line. The Desantis edict was nothing more than a political stunt. Period.  It was a dumb move and very likely unconstitutional. NCL has called the bluff and now FL is facing hundreds of job losses and many millions in lost revenues.. Other cruise lines are contemplating similar tactics. It is now only a question of how long it will take for Desantis to come up with some way to save face.

 

NCL hasn't "called the bluff" until they don't sail from FL. As to "facing hundreds of job losses and many millions in lost revenues", in case you had not noticed, that is happening now only it is thousands of jobs and billions of dollars and DeSantis is trying to fix that.

 

Cruise lines have been sailing in other parts of the world without vaccination requirements. I don't recall news of any outbreaks.

 

17 hours ago, mikkelhansen said:

As a non-American, can someone explain the political and/or logical and/or scientific reasoning behind this bill?

I'm from Denmark, and what I have read about the bill seems like completely reversed logic.

In Denmark, we are slowly opening up business across the board; indoor dining, cinemas, fitness centers etc. However, all indoor-based non-retail businesses (ie. fitness centres, dining, cinemas etc.) MUST require valid Covid passports, either showing completed vaccination or a negative PCR/antigen test not older than 72 hours. Both test types are available completely free for anyone in Denmark. Just a few days ago, Covid immunity (from an earlier contracting of Covid) was added as a valid option in the Covid passport. The Covid passport is available as an phone app or on print. The latest major re-opening was just last week on May 6, and I couldn't even imagine BANNING Covid passports in that situation, like I understand DeSantis is aiming to do.

 

The concern is over privacy primarily and maybe secondarily the freedom to be in control of your own body. The simplest way to think of it is to sub in another medical condition for Covid. I don't know about Denmark, but in the United States it would be unthinkable for a gay cruise to require gay men to show proof of taking PrEP (pre-exposure prophylaxis) medicine  as a condition of taking the cruise. A lot of the medical privacy laws the U.S. and various states have stems from past discrimination against those with HIV.

 

16 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

This dives deeply into politics, which is probably not appropriate for Cruise Critic. But DeSantis thinks he is protecting the "freedom" of people to do whatever they want, regardless of how it affects others. He sees himself as a future presidential candidate in the Trump line of politics.

 

The order he signed, and the similar state law that takes effect shortly, have NO scientific basis at all. Its all about the "freedom" issue. Its politics over science.

 

It is possible the law will be overturned. It is possible the law will adversely affect cruising resuming in Florida, so if DeSantis wants cruising back in Florida, a compromise will be required.

 

I don't believe anyone is advocating for people to anything they want, but for the freedom to control their own bodies, a firmly entrenched right now and their rights of medical privacy, another important civil right, even if it is more recent.

 

People keep pretending this fealty to science until the science doesn't support their view.

 

The science says California public schools should have been fully open since the fall for in person learning, yet here we are ending our second year locked out of schools. Less than half the students in public school have returned to in person learning.

 

4 hours ago, Donald said:

With the virus still running out of control in many parts of the USA, I would be extremely reluctant to visit that country for any reason - even an emergency. It is just too risky.

 

Currently Florida is reporting higher infection and death numbers than many individual countries. There is no way I would consider going there for any reason - even a cruise.

 

I am not sure what reports you are looking at but FL cases peaked in January and have been heading steadily down since then. With FL's population, it would be the 10th biggest country in Europe and is doing better than major countries like Germany, France and Hungry.

[CT Sean]

 

5 hours ago, scottca075 said:

The concern is over privacy primarily and maybe secondarily the freedom to be in control of your own body. The simplest way to think of it is to sub in another medical condition for Covid. I don't know about Denmark, but in the United States it would be unthinkable for a gay cruise to require gay men to show proof of taking PrEP (pre-exposure prophylaxis) medicine  as a condition of taking the cruise. A lot of the medical privacy laws the U.S. and various states have stems from past discrimination against those with HIV.

 

 

Nobody is taking away anybody's "freedom over their own body".  Cruising is not a right.  You want to get on a cruise ship - you need to meet some requirements and one of those - for the time being at least - should be proof of vaccination against a virus that has been clearly shown will infect a large number of passengers given the slightest opportunity.  HIV is is no way analogous to Covid - it doesn't spead like fire through the air. If it did - it would be completely reasonable to say ALL passengers (limiting to gay passengers is discriminatory) are required have some measure of prevention.

[KeepCalmBearOn]

2 hours ago, CT Sean said:

Nobody is taking away anybody's "freedom over their own body".  Cruising is not a right. 

 

Change "Cruising is not a right"to "Staying in a hotel is not a right" or "Eating at a lunch counter is not a right" and you see it in a different light.

 

In California it would be a protected civil right. Let me quote California's Unruh Civil Rights Act again.

 

"(Cal. Civil Code, section 51 et seq.) declares that Californians “are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges, or services in all business establishments of every kind whatsoever,” and prohibits business establishments from discriminating on the basis of sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, medical condition, marital status or sexual orientation."

 

If you force someone to inject something in their body in order to be able to do certain things, like grocery shop, fly in a plane, take a cruise ship, you most certainly have taken from them the fundamental right to control their body.

[CT Sean]

1 hour ago, scottca075 said:

 

Change "Cruising is not a right"to "Staying in a hotel is not a right" or "Eating at a lunch counter is not a right" and you see it in a different light.

 

 

I won't actually see it in a different light.

 

So I take it there are no physical requirements to be able to ride on amusement park rides (as one example) in CA? Based on your interpretation of that code, they are not allowed to "discriminate" due to height or weight or any other physical issue on the list of "medical conditions that prevent you from going on this ride"?

 

By that same logic, cruise lines would not be allowed to prohibit pregnant women from cruising in their third trimester.  I'll quote Disney's policy, but plenty of other lines (maybe all of them - I'm not checking) have similar.

 

Q. Are Guests who are pregnant permitted to sail?

A. Women who have entered their 24th week of pregnancy as of their embarkation date or who will enter their 24th week of pregnancy during the cruise will be refused passage due to safety concerns.

Neither a doctor’s medical statement nor a waiver of liability will be accepted. In addition, Disney Cruise Line cannot be held responsible or liable for any complications relating to pregnancy at any stage.

 

It's certainly possible that it's simply never been challenged but I'm thinking that CA status is not as all-powerful as you want it to be.

[Donald]

15 hours ago, scottca075 said:

 

I am not sure what reports you are looking at but FL cases peaked in January and have been heading steadily down since then. With FL's population, it would be the 10th biggest country in Europe and is doing better than major countries like Germany, France and Hungry.

I look at www.worldometer.net every day. They compile alll the reports on COVID illness and death submitted by local health departments from over 220 countries around the world, and update the totals every midnight GMT.

As of today 15 May 2021:

 

Florida’s reported population is 21,477,737.

If Florida was an independent country, its population would rank #58 in the world, just below Sri Lanka.

 

Florida‘s reported COVID cases total 2,286,203.

If Florida was an independent country, its COVID cases would rank #16 in the world, just below Mexico.

 

Florida’s reported COVID deaths total 36,007.

If Florida was an independent country, its COVID deaths would rank #20 in the world, just below Turkey.

 

Until 2 weeks ago, Florida was reporting the second-highest daily totals (after Michigan) for new cases among the 50 US States.

As of 2 weeks ago Florida is in First Place, with the highest daily totals for new COVID Cases in America.

 

These are absolutely dismal numbers they should be ashamed of.

First World Country?? I don’t think so.

[KeepCalmBearOn]

6 hours ago, Donald said:

These are absolutely dismal numbers they should be ashamed of.

First World Country?? I don’t think so.

 

In total infections per100k, FL is 19th in the U.S. for states, and the more important stat, deaths per 100k, FL is 27th in the U.S. and below the national average.

 

Deaths per 100k in the UK with its NHS are 191.39 per 100k, FL is 167.

[Donald]

2 hours ago, scottca075 said:

 

In total infections per100k, FL is 19th in the U.S. for states, and the more important stat, deaths per 100k, FL is 27th in the U.S. and below the national average.

 

Deaths per 100k in the UK with its NHS are 191.39 per 100k, FL is 167.

If you set the bar low enough, it will always look good.

[KeepCalmBearOn]

17 hours ago, Donald said:

These are absolutely dismal numbers they should be ashamed of.

First World Country?? I don’t think so.

 

10 hours ago, scottca075 said:

In total infections per100k, FL is 19th in the U.S. for states, and the more important stat, deaths per 100k, FL is 27th in the U.S. and below the national average.

 

Deaths per 100k in the UK with its NHS are 191.39 per 100k, FL is 167.

 

7 hours ago, Donald said:

If you set the bar low enough, it will always look good.

 

You ignore the point, which is FL has done better than "First World" countries like the UK, Germany, France and Belgium and major U.S. states like NY and NJ while pursuing very different paths and strategies.

[Donald]

And you ignore the point that Florida has done - and is doing - worse than over 200 1st, 2nd, and 3rd World countries, and most of the US States while pursuing very different paths and strategies.

Today Florida Health Departments reported 3,590 new COVID cases - the highest number among American states, and 61 new  COVID deaths - second-highest after Texas at 67.

Today, 204 countries around the world reported fewer new COVID Cases than Florida.

Today, 200 countries around the world reported fewer new COVID Deaths than Florida.

[Cienfuegos]

Reporting fewer cases, and reporting fewer cases per one hundred thousand people are different metrics.

 

Governor DeSantis has enabled and encouraged the shut down of vaccines at health facilities in poor, rural Everglades communities like South Bay while looking the other way as Board members of Morse Life jumped the line at a senior citizen facility. His disregard of poor and often powerless people reflects badly on him.  In my opinion, his opinions on masks, cruise operations, etc will be tainted by political expediency.

 

It is sad, he started off well.

[jimgev]

The Florida approach to this pandemic has been a disaster. Not only have the numbers been dismal, in fact, they are not reliable. The Governor has consistently tried to hide the true numbers and has aggresively combated attempts to reveal the truth.

Here are the new "official" numbers - if they can even be believed.

As of 2:30 p.m. Monday, there have been 2,293,980 positive cases of the coronavirus recorded in the state. The case count includes 2,251,148 Florida residents and 42,832 non-Florida residents. There are 36,133 Florida resident deaths reported, 724 non-resident deaths, and 93,148 hospitalizations at some point during illness, according to the Florida Department of Health.

[KeepCalmBearOn]

3 hours ago, jimgev said:

The Florida approach to this pandemic has been a disaster.

 

The results tell a different story. FL is in the middle of the pack in terms of cases and deaths per capita, but has kept its economy going much better than states that were lockdown states. They've done a better job at reopening schools and extracurricular activities than states that have most of their schools still closed and higher numbers than FL.

[Donald]

For May 17, 2021 - From www.worldometers.info 

Florida reported 2,292,004 total COVID Cases

47 US States reported lower numbers

204 Countries around the world reported lower numbers

 

Florida reported 2,482 new COVID Cases

49 US States reported lower numbers

179 Countries around the world reported lower numbers

 

Florida reported 36,085 total COVID Deaths

46 US States reported lower numbers

204 Countries around the world reported lower numbers

 

Florida reported 20 new COVID Deaths

45 US States reported lower numbers

162 Countries around the world reported lower numbers

While a vast improvement on COVID deaths, this may be just an anomaly. The preliminary numbers reported by Florida for May 18, although incomplete, are already - once again - the highest in the USA.

 

[Cienfuegos]

Thanks, everyone, for a great and very civil discussion of what might be a very contentious issue.

 

 

 

 

[CT Sean]

16 hours ago, Donald said:

For May 17, 2021 - From www.worldometers.info 

Florida reported 2,292,004 total COVID Cases

47 US States reported lower numbers

204 Countries around the world reported lower numbers

 

Florida reported 2,482 new COVID Cases

49 US States reported lower numbers

179 Countries around the world reported lower numbers

 

Florida reported 36,085 total COVID Deaths

46 US States reported lower numbers

204 Countries around the world reported lower numbers

 

Florida reported 20 new COVID Deaths

45 US States reported lower numbers

162 Countries around the world reported lower numbers

While a vast improvement on COVID deaths, this may be just an anomaly. The preliminary numbers reported by Florida for May 18, although incomplete, are already - once again - the highest in the USA.

 

 While I agree that Florida's handling of the pandemic has been "less than optimal", citing the raw data doesn't prove anything.  2482 new cases doesn't mean much on it's own.  2500 out of 200 million residents would be pretty good, out of 2 million would be alarming.  FL has the 3rd largest population in the US.  Even if the infection rate was perfectly distributed in every state, FL would have 3rd highest infection count. 

 

That's why the "per 100k" is so important.  FL's 7 day moving average is currently 102 per 100k.  I do however believe FL is still a high infection rate compared to much of the country.  NYC is 50 per 100k and so is Texas, but there are several states - WV, PA, OR that are also around 100 (WV is actually 115)

 

I also have no choice but to wonder how many travelers have been infected in FL and brought the virus home with them.

[CruiserBruce]

The Judge sent the Florida v CDC case to mandatory mediation.

[Donald]

4 hours ago, CT Sean said:

 While I agree that Florida's handling of the pandemic has been "less than optimal", citing the raw data doesn't prove anything.  2482 new cases doesn't mean much on it's own.  2500 out of 200 million residents would be pretty good, out of 2 million would be alarming.  FL has the 3rd largest population in the US.  Even if the infection rate was perfectly distributed in every state, FL would have 3rd highest infection count. 

 

That's why the "per 100k" is so important.  FL's 7 day moving average is currently 102 per 100k.  I do however believe FL is still a high infection rate compared to much of the country.  NYC is 50 per 100k and so is Texas, but there are several states - WV, PA, OR that are also around 100 (WV is actually 115)

 

I also have no choice but to wonder how many travelers have been infected in FL and brought the virus home with them.

 

Thank you for making my point.

“Per 100k” is very important information to scientists, doctors, and residents. It lets them understand how a particular area is faring over a long period of time.

 

But as a potential tourist, I unfortunately do not really care how many Floridians on average, out of 100,000, got sick or died over the past year. 

I only care how dangerous it might be if I were to visit Florida next week to join a cruise ship.

Florida is the 3rd most populous state in America - but for the past few months it has consistently reported substantially more new COVID Infections and COVID Deaths than California and Texas, both with significantly higher populations. And those daily numbers are increasing - not decreasing. It also has reported consistently higher numbers than the other 47 States.

As a tourist, which states appear safer to visit?

 

Florida’s daily COVID numbers have consistently been much greater  - every day - than the daily numbers for about 206 countries around the world.

As a tourist, I really do not care how all those countries have fared with COVID last year. I only care how things are going NOW, when I plan on joining a cruise ship there.   

 

And if I want to compare “apples to apples” I can look at a country with a population similar to Florida. Taiwan for example (23.8 million) vs Florida (21.5 million).

 

Yesterday, 18 May 2021

 

                 Total Cases.    New Cases.    Total Deaths.   New Deaths.

Taiwan.              2260.              245.                     14                       2. 

Florida.      2,296,785.           2,805.              36,236.                   97.  

 

Which place will I find safer to visit and board a cruise ship?

I think you can guess the answer.

[capriccio]

6 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

The Judge sent the Florida v CDC case to mandatory mediation.

Here's some more details on that from a Sun Sentinel article published this evening (https://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/fl-bz-florida-cdc-suit-goes-to-mediator-20210519-yu5wgqmcpnaetileu6ga25nuqm-story.html?utm_source=onesignal&utm_medium=notification&utm_campaign=2021-05-18-Suit-against-CD) Judge refers Florida’s cruise line suit against CDC to mediator.

 

Highlights:

• A Tampa federal judge overseeing the state’s civil case against the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention referred the matter to a mediator Tuesday with instructions to hear the positions of both sides before June 1.
• Recap of last weeks hearing:  Lawyers from the Florida attorney general’s office argued the agency overstepped its authority by imposing a multi-step process for cruise lines to safely resume operating from U.S. ports after more than year of no service...Justice Department lawyers countered that the state has no authority to dictate when and where the companies can resume service. In court papers, government lawyers also said the state had allowed an entire year to pass without taking any action.
• The judge also allowed the American Society of Travel Advisors, a Washington-based trade group of travel agents, to file a friend of the court brief to support the state’s argument about economic damages suffered by the industry and communities outside Florida.

[KeepCalmBearOn]

7 hours ago, Donald said:

And if I want to compare “apples to apples” I can look at a country with a population similar to Florida. Taiwan for example (23.8 million) vs Florida (21.5 million).

 

In case you had not noticed, a homogeneous population like Taiwan, is not the same as a multi-cultural, ethnically diverse place like FL. Taiwan get 11 million tourists a year, FL gets 130 million tourists a year.

 

NY and FL are an apple to apple comparison. FL is lightyears ahead of NY. FL is a little bit better than TX and a little bit worse than CA.

[Donald]

4 hours ago, scottca075 said:

 

In case you had not noticed, a homogeneous population like Taiwan, is not the same as a multi-cultural, ethnically diverse place like FL. Taiwan get 11 million tourists a year, FL gets 130 million tourists a year.

 

NY and FL are an apple to apple comparison. FL is lightyears ahead of NY. FL is a little bit better than TX and a little bit worse than CA.

You keep setting the bar as low as possible.

A broken arm is better than a broken leg, which is better than terminal cancer.

But I don’t want to have any of those things.

Miami Herald claims that Florida had 86.7 million visitors in 2020 - not 130 million.

 

18 May, 2021 Total cases.  New Cases.  Total Deaths.  New Deaths

California.         3,771,382.            1,232              62,725.              25

Texas.                2,939,885.            2,679.             51,243.              42

Florida.              2,296,785.            2,805.             36,236.               97

New York.         2,138,099.             1,159.             53,313.              43

 

Florida claims 8.7 million vaccinated, and still shows very poorly, compared to the rest of the world.

So let’s get a little closer.

 

Mexico has 130.1 million people; multi-cultural, ethnically diverse.

The population of Mexico is more than 6 times that of Florida. 

Florida has vaccinated 8.7 million people.

Mexico hasn’t vaccinated anyone.

 

18 May, 2021.  Total Cases.  New Cases.  Total Deaths.   New Deaths

Florida.             2,296,785.           2,805.         36,236.              97

Mexico.            2,382, 745.              822.       220,489.             56

 

With 6 times the population of Florida, Mexico has essentially the same number of reported cases. 

Florida is reporting more than 3 times the number of new cases daily.

Mexico previously had about 6 times the number of COVID deaths over the past year.

Florida is reporting nearly double the number of new deaths.

 

Is Mexico cleaner than Florida?

Florida has vaccinated a third of its population; Mexico has not vaccinated anyone.

Does Mexico have better Medical Care?

Are Mexicans healthier than Floridians?

 

As I mentioned earlier, as a potential tourist, only 2 numbers interest me:

- How many new people are getting sick this week

- How may new people are dying this week.

Comparing Mexico and Florida; Florida loses big-time.

[CT Sean]

Florida state officials not releasing medical examiners' coronavirus death data

9 hours ago, scottca075 said:

 

In case you had not noticed, a homogeneous population like Taiwan, is not the same as a multi-cultural, ethnically diverse place like FL. Taiwan get 11 million tourists a year, FL gets 130 million tourists a year.

 

NY and FL are an apple to apple comparison. FL is lightyears ahead of NY. FL is a little bit better than TX and a little bit worse than CA.

More data without context.  7 of the top 10 States with the highest death rates are also where the pandemic first exploded.  As doctors learned how to treat the severely infected, death rates went down.  Unless, you're claiming that FL is better at treating patients that NY, MA, CT, NJ,etc. but you;re gonna need evidence to support it.

 

From that same source, there also this story Florida state officials not releasing medical examiners' coronavirus death data

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by CT Sean

[KeepCalmBearOn]

5 hours ago, Donald said:

You keep setting the bar as low as possible.

 

 

You keep ignoring the rates per 100k, which is the only way to compare apples to apples between U.S. states. You can click on " COVID-19 death rates by state: May 19" below to see the numbers.

 

 COVID-19 death rates by state: May 19

 

NY state is #2 at 270 deaths per 100k, Texas is #23 at 177 deaths per 100k, FL is #27 at 169, CA is #29 at 159. TX, FL and CA are all within a reasonable range of each other; NY is off the charts.

 

 

5 hours ago, Donald said:

Mexico has 130.1 million people; multi-cultural, ethnically diverse.

The population of Mexico is more than 6 times that of Florida. 

Florida has vaccinated 8.7 million people.

Mexico hasn’t vaccinated anyone.

 

Do you just make things up? Mexico's death rate from Covid is 173 per 100k, or worse than FL's 169 per 100k.

 

Mexico has administered over 23 million vaccines and over 10 million people are fully vaccinated.

 

5 hours ago, Donald said:

Miami Herald claims that Florida had 86.7 million visitors in 2020 - not 130 million.

 

FL had 131 million visitors in 2019, over 30 million per quarter. In the first quarter of 2020 there were over 30 million despite the state virtually closing in early March.

[KeepCalmBearOn]

25 minutes ago, CT Sean said:

Unless, you're claiming that FL is better at treating patients that NY, MA, CT, NJ,etc. but you;re gonna need evidence to support it.

 

NY, NJ, CT, RI & MA all pursued different strategies than CA, TX and FL and the results show. It was in Washington state before it got to NY and WA responded better. There is your context.