Take shore excursion but go off on your own

[Hawaiidan]

16 minutes ago, Cruzin Terri said:

I think you hit the nail on the head. I have decided that we will not take a ship excursion but continue to explore other options.  

Thanks for your response.

Terri

the less moving parts and people you involve the better. 

  By the way  if you use  tours by locals know that in SO. France  they think a lot of their services and charge astronomical  rates as "tours":  takes a huge comission!"  compared to the rest of Europe.    Best to search the net to find people with independent business       example:   locals wanted $950 for a tour that  the local only charged $580 !    DO your homework.........it  pay$

[Cruzin Terri]

30 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said:

the less moving parts and people you involve the better. 

  By the way  if you use  tours by locals know that in SO. France  they think a lot of their services and charge astronomical  rates as "tours":  takes a huge comission!"  compared to the rest of Europe.    Best to search the net to find people with independent business       example:   locals wanted $950 for a tour that  the local only charged $580 !    DO your homework.........it  pay$

Thank you Dan.  I usually stay away from third party vendors like Victor and Tours by Locals for that very reason and try to find independent providers.

Terri

[Flatbush Flyer]

58 minutes ago, ORV said:

It should be pointed out that no one posting here speaks for Oceania. They can relate what they think the rule is, things that might have occurred in the past, or what they do. The only people that really could answer your question would be Destination Services once onboard. I do know it makes the tour guides nervous when anyone in their group tries to break off on their own. Obviously they have some responsibility for everyone in their group. 

With agreement that “no one here speaks for O,” I can relate my personal experience from the point of view of responsibility on both sides of a tour contract.

Part of my support for grad school came from operating (and guiding) an alpine ski tour service in the Tyrol (in partnership with the Austrian government). Later in life, “buck stops here” executive positions in universities found me often combing the fine print on all sorts of travel contracts for student groups. 

Rest assured that, from both perspectives, a guide providing time sensitive services in a visited location who allowed his/her charges to take off with only an “I’ll be back at the bus on time” would be “toast.”

And, of course, there remains the probable anger of others in the tour group when that “I’ll be back” person doesn’t keep their “promise.”

[Intlxpatr]

My husband and I leave the groups often. We always check with the guide and let them know we are leaving. We also take full responsibility for getting ourselves back to the ship well before departure. We have never caused a problem, and we relish having time to explore on our own. Many times the cruise lines have no interest in things we really want to see - petroglyphs or walk the city walls in Dubrovnik, or have time for a relaxed meal in Marrakesh, things that are fun and special to us. We think it is perfectly normal to seek out these experiences on our own. We choose our own adventures 🙂 You can, too. 

 

[Guppy99]

41 minutes ago, Intlxpatr said:

My husband and I leave the groups often. We always check with the guide and let them know we are leaving. We also take full responsibility for getting ourselves back to the ship well before departure. We have never caused a problem, and we relish having time to explore on our own. Many times the cruise lines have no interest in things we really want to see - petroglyphs or walk the city walls in Dubrovnik, or have time for a relaxed meal in Marrakesh, things that are fun and special to us. We think it is perfectly normal to seek out these experiences on our own. We choose our own adventures 🙂 You can, too. 

 

That's great! But you shouldn't use  tour as taxi service to get there. If you want to be on your own and are able to get back on your own, then you can certainly get there on your own.

[Flatbush Flyer]

32 minutes ago, Guppy99 said:

That's great! But you shouldn't use  tour as taxi service to get there. If you want to be on your own and are able to get back on your own, then you can certainly get there on your own.

+1

[Host Jazzbeau]

1 hour ago, Guppy99 said:

That's great! But you shouldn't use  tour as taxi service to get there. If you want to be on your own and are able to get back on your own, then you can certainly get there on your own.

Why?  If you're willing to pay the ship's price, who are you harming by doing this?

[Guppy99]

2 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Why?  If you're willing to pay the ship's price, who are you harming by doing this?

For all the reasons stated above:

- going off on your own is a liability for the tour operator and if a celebrity cruise, for celebrity If you get robbed, murdered, are in an accident, become ill, go missing, etc., don't think that anyone will hesitate to sue both. And don't think it can't happen. Especially to two tourists wandering around by themselves.

- if you do not come back in time, exactly how long should someone wait for you? Then you will have inconvenienced the whole tour who may have other plans, or the next tour the operator is committed to

- if you don't come back on time, and the tour operator returns to the ship, but the ship thinks you are on the tour, now what do they do? Search for you? wait? leave? Now you have inconvenienced the entire ship.

- your intention may be to get back in plenty of time, but you may get stuck in traffic, or experience some other delay.

- what if something happens and the tour has to change the meeting place or round up everyone early (this has happened to me more than once)?

- even if you say "adios and don't worry about us."... the same things can happen and no one would know for quite some time.

- and don't think that because you have a cell phone you are ok. They fail, often, especially abroad in some areas.

- if a tour operator says ok, well, he is likely not more than a local operator and not an owner who cares about the liability (or even knows there is liability) or is unwilling to say no and have any confrontation.

 

When you buy an excursion ticket, you are entering into a contract. When you go off on your own (unless it is an on your own type tour), then you are breaking that contract. 

Are all these bad things going to happen? I don't know. But they have and they do.

 

 

 

[Host Jazzbeau]

Maybe those are the rules for Celebrity, but this forum is about Oceania.  Do you have the contract wording that supports your position, or are you just making up your own rules altogether?  [My MIL used to do that, and nobody listened to her...]

[Guppy99]

38 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Maybe those are the rules for Celebrity, but this forum is about Oceania.  Do you have the contract wording that supports your position, or are you just making up your own rules altogether?  [My MIL used to do that, and nobody listened to her...]

it doesn't matter what cruise line and no I'm not making it up. It's basic contract law. Do you realize when you buy tickets or give your coat to the coat check a contract is created? There are obligations for both parties.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Guppy99

[Host Jazzbeau]

I also know what an adhesion contract is.  And the only request I have ever heard about this from anyone in authority is to please let the guide know you are dropping out so they won't wait for you.  But next time I will expect to find you at the gangplank with a summons...

[Flatbush Flyer]

1 hour ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Why?  If you're willing to pay the ship's price, who are you harming by doing this?

Who’s being harmed?
 

By leaving the contracted tour with the permission of the guide, that guide has placed him/herself, his/her company and Oceania in a vulnerable position of liability should the “wanderer(s)” then become injured, lost, late to return, etc.

That guide’s company’s employment contract CYA boilerplate most likely says “no deviations from the plan w/o company approval.”  And the smart guide will inform folks of the need not to wander while also refusing “permission” when asked. At the same time, should the wanderer leave anyway, at least the guide has  relayed the policy while not supporting the customer’s decision to disobey. which (In most situations) should be sufficient to protect him/herself from a legal action when one of the wanderers (perhaps not the who initially said “I take full responsibility”) decides to sue “everyone in sight” for negligence. 

[Flatbush Flyer]

1 hour ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Maybe those are the rules for Celebrity, but this forum is about Oceania.  Do you have the contract wording that supports your position, or are you just making up your own rules altogether?  [My MIL used to do that, and nobody listened to her...]

If the issue of what happens on a ship’s tour was not a major concern for O, it would not have included an entire section in its Ticket Contract doing its best to distance itself from any responsibility:

g. Shore Excursions and Other Transportation, Services and Facilities:

.... Carrier makes no representation, either express or implied, regarding the suitability, safety, insurance or other aspects of any such independent contractors, transportation, tours, services, products or facilities and Carrier’s liability for nonperformance of any independent contractor providing such facilities or services shall be limited to a refund of the amounts received by Carrier on the Guest’s behalf, if any. We assume no responsibility in whole or in part for any delays, delayed departures or arrivals, missed connections, loss, death, damage or injury to person or property or accident, mechanical defect, failure or negligence of any nature whatever caused in connection with any accommodations, transportation, services or facilities, substitution of hotels, common carriers or equipment with or without notice or for any additional expenses occasioned thereby. ......This Ticket Contract constitutes the sole agreement between Carrier and You, it being understood that the various independent contractors otherwise participating in the Cruise or CruiseTour will enter into their own separate contractual arrangements with You, and that You assume the risk of utilizing the services and facilities of those independent contractors......

 

Of course, that wouldn’t stop an attorney from digging into the wound created by “the tour guide said it was okay.”

[Cruzin Terri]

I’m sorry I opened this can of worms.  However, I have taken a number of River Cruises with Tauck.  One of the things we were told from the get-go is that if we wish to break away from the tour we were free to do so.  Now I understand that usually the Riverboat is docked in the city where we were touring and usually a bus was not involved. However, sometimes there were buses.  But that seemed to be the case in each of the cities where we docked.

I am not sure that this is different.  

However we were encouraged to do our own thing if we wanted to.

Tauck is a class act and does very right by their guests.  And they sure didn’t seem to have a problem with guests going off on their own.

Just another perspective.

Terri

[Host Jazzbeau]

@Cruzin Terri your experience is the same as mine with AmaWaterways.  I have seen the ship Cruise Director making a public announcement that is it fine to leave the tour as long as you tell the guide.

 

@Flatbush Flyer the contract language you quote says nothing about people who leave a tour part way – it is disclaiming responsibility even for those who stick close to the guide.  So – I stated above that I have seen CD's give permission to leave the tour.  Have you actually seen one of these 'smart' guides you mention tell people that they can't leave?

[Flatbush Flyer]

2 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

@Cruzin Terri your experience is the same as mine with AmaWaterways.  I have seen the ship Cruise Director making a public announcement that is it fine to leave the tour as long as you tell the guide.

 

@Flatbush Flyer the contract language you quote says nothing about people who leave a tour part way – it is disclaiming responsibility even for those who stick close to the guide.  So – I stated above that I have seen CD's give permission to leave the tour.  Have you actually seen one of these 'smart' guides you mention tell people that they can't leave?

Actually I have witnessed guides refusing to approve leaving the group (and not just on an Oceania ship tour). Fortunately, it’s been a non-existent  occurrence that anyone on an O group tour in which I’ve participated asked to leave at the beginning of arrival in a distant location (as was proposed by the OP). But,  I can recall several specific occurrences where “leave early” requests were refused by the guide including a Buenos Aires tour where our tour bus was hit by a car and, despite some folks wanting to leave on their own, all were informed that they must wait for the replacement bus (which they did). FWIW, the tour was extended for significant extra time.
 

Another tour was a nature walk in Brazilian forestland where a special effort was made to inform folks that all were required to remain with the group “no matter what.” All complied.

 

Though not O, I refer back to my own work as a ski tour organizer/guide. The nature of leading an “on mountain” tour in a place like Kitzbuhel, Austria requires keeping a group together despite differences in ability (or interests). It would be all too easy for someone to head down the wrong way there (“on their own”) and end up three towns away by boarding the wrong ski lifts. In that situation, agreeing to someone’s request to “break off” would be quite negligent. And that reality would relate easily to any of O’s “active sports” tours like kayaking, biking, snorkeling, etc. Moreover, the same goes for urban settings that may not be particularly safe at night and/or in certain neighborhoods for individuals or couples unfamiliar with the territory.....

Bottom line: If for no other reasons than good common sense at one end and a litigious society at the other, “smart” guides will do their best to keep assigned groups together on prescribed itineraries.

 

 

[Guppy99]

5 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

I also know what an adhesion contract is.  And the only request I have ever heard about this from anyone in authority is to please let the guide know you are dropping out so they won't wait for you.  But next time I will expect to find you at the gangplank with a summons...

Apparently you do not know what an adhesion contract is when you mention it in this context. If your final word is always an offensive insult, then your argument loses credibility.

[Host Jazzbeau]

I went back and carefully reread @Cruzin Terri's original post here, and I stick to my view that what she wants to do in going from Marseilles to Aix and then leaving the guided tour to do her own thing is exactly what the CDs and guides on river cruises announce is legitimate.  A far cry from wandering off in a jungle or on a ski slope.  She will in all probability be told when and where to meet the bus for the return to the ship.  Worst case, a taxi can do the 45-min drive back to the ship.

 

When our MSC cruise was diverted from Corsica to Toulon, we decided that visiting Aix was more interesting than any of the excursions they threw together, so we hired a taxi to take us there, wait, and bring us back.  If MSC had offered an excursion, we would have taken it – and I'm sure that the sites we chose to visit and linger over were not what the guided tour would have done, so we would have dropped out of the tour and rejoined them at the bus.  We have done this on other tours and seen others do so as well.  It is really no big deal.

[Flatbush Flyer]

1 minute ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

I went back and carefully reread @Cruzin Terri's original post here, and I stick to my view that what she wants to do in going from Marseilles to Aix and then leaving the guided tour to do her own thing is exactly what the CDs and guides on river cruises announce is legitimate.  A far cry from wandering off in a jungle or on a ski slope.  She will in all probability be told when and where to meet the bus for the return to the ship.  Worst case, a taxi can do the 45-min drive back to the ship.

 

When our MSC cruise was diverted from Corsica to Toulon, we decided that visiting Aix was more interesting than any of the excursions they threw together, so we hired a taxi to take us there, wait, and bring us back.  If MSC had offered an excursion, we would have taken it – and I'm sure that the sites we chose to visit and linger over were not what the guided tour would have done, so we would have dropped out of the tour and rejoined them at the bus.  We have done this on other tours and seen others do so as well.  It is really no big deal.

Not a big deal until it’s a big deal. 

[Cruzin Terri]

4 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

I went back and carefully reread @Cruzin Terri's original post here, and I stick to my view that what she wants to do in going from Marseilles to Aix and then leaving the guided tour to do her own thing is exactly what the CDs and guides on river cruises announce is legitimate.  A far cry from wandering off in a jungle or on a ski slope.  She will in all probability be told when and where to meet the bus for the return to the ship.  Worst case, a taxi can do the 45-min drive back to the ship.

 

When our MSC cruise was diverted from Corsica to Toulon, we decided that visiting Aix was more interesting than any of the excursions they threw together, so we hired a taxi to take us there, wait, and bring us back.  If MSC had offered an excursion, we would have taken it – and I'm sure that the sites we chose to visit and linger over were not what the guided tour would have done, so we would have dropped out of the tour and rejoined them at the bus.  We have done this on other tours and seen others do so as well.  It is really no big deal.

Thanks, Jazzbeau. 

There are a number of reasons in play here. I walk slowly due to a hip injury.  That is why public transportation is not an option.  Because of this I also find it difficult to keep up with a group.

Putting those things aside.  My real dislike for ship tours is that I have to see what they want me to see and not what I want to see.

On the river cruise, whenever we separated from the group, we were always punctual and at the assigned place and time way before the group. It would be the same here. We are responsible people

Terri

[sunlover12]

This is an interesting thread. I’d just like to add that I have been on quite a few O shore excursions and have never seen anyone request to leave before it’s over.  At the end of the tour, the guide will usually say you’re free to stay and explore on your own and make your way back to the ship. But never before the end. I don’t know the legal aspects of it but it does seem reasonable to think there could  be liability issues involved if someone left the tour soon after it started. 

As has been mentioned, if possible you should find a tour that will only drop you off and pick you up. 

[alaskaca]

We did this in Saint Lucia in 2020.  It was a bus ride from port to Pigeon Island and the excursion was a Snuba adventure.  We wanted to hike the trails of the island vs snuba.  I first checked with Destination Services and was advised to talk with the tour guide.  Given permission by the guide with no hesitation, along with the time to be back to the drop off location.  We were there early and it all went off without a hitch.  Good luck Terri, you sure started an interesting thread😉

[clairol]

On 2/23/2022 at 10:34 PM, su-arizona said:

First, and most important, Oceania DOES NOT PORT IN MARSEILLE CITY.  It ports in the Marseille Cruise Port, which is in the middle of nowhere some distance from Marseilles.

I think that this may depend on what ship you are come in on. When we were there on Marina (2019) we were at the cruise port but when we were there on Nautica (2017) we were right in town. Perhaps size doe smatter in this case?

[Guppy99]

7 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

I went back and carefully reread @Cruzin Terri's original post here, and I stick to my view that what she wants to do in going from Marseilles to Aix and then leaving the guided tour to do her own thing is exactly what the CDs and guides on river cruises announce is legitimate.  A far cry from wandering off in a jungle or on a ski slope.  She will in all probability be told when and where to meet the bus for the return to the ship.  Worst case, a taxi can do the 45-min drive back to the ship.

 

When our MSC cruise was diverted from Corsica to Toulon, we decided that visiting Aix was more interesting than any of the excursions they threw together, so we hired a taxi to take us there, wait, and bring us back.  If MSC had offered an excursion, we would have taken it – and I'm sure that the sites we chose to visit and linger over were not what the guided tour would have done, so we would have dropped out of the tour and rejoined them at the bus.  We have done this on other tours and seen others do so as well.  It is really no big deal.

Doing something does not make it right.  Thinking your assessment and judgement is better, does not make it right.  Just because you can, does not mean you should. My last comment on the subject. Clearly you do as you please.

[pinotlover]

First of all, people “leave “ the tours regularly. I have been on several O shorex where we have a planned two hour lunch break. People split up and go where they want, eat what they want, and do what they want. Those personal decisions aren’t liability risks for the tour operators. 
 

I was on one O shorex where the tour guide split a couple off the tour hours early and gave them on a map where to meet the bus. The tour specifically said no wheel chairs, yet Oceania allowed a couple in a wheelchair on the tour. According to the tour guide , Oceania had both breached the contract and broken national laws by allowing them on the tour. After about an hour of disintegrating conditions while trying to facilitate them, the guide was going to lose those two or about twenty of us. About 5 hrs later that couple meet us at the bus. 
 

Liability laws in most countries are far different than those in the US.