Panama Canal 10-24-2023 strange itinerary change

[tallfir]

Just checked the itinerary for the Viking Star -  FLL to LA on 10/24/2023 and there is something really strange. My printed itinerary, which I received when booked, and the itinerary on the Viking Ocean Website shows Day 6 is in Cartegena, Columbia but on "My Viking Journey" it shows Cozumel, Mexico. Day 3 is also in Cozumel. If MVJ is correct, the ship stops in Cozumel on Day 3, then wanders aimlessly for TWO days in the Caribbean and then comes back to Cozumel. Then miraculously sails at warp speed to Colon, Panama overnight. I am not a sea captain or for that matter a STAR SHIP captain, but I think it is physically impossible to make it from Cozumel, Mexico to Colon, Panama overnight on a cruise ship.

 

What do you seasoned sailors think?

 

PS - According to a website called "BednBlue" at 15 knots it will take 2 days, 4 hours and 20 minutes to make the 785 nautical miles.

[May B]

Cute!

 

I think whoever was typing in the itinerary ended up being a victim of a funny spellcheck, or had a brain glitch. 
 

Have a great trip.

[lindajpe]

Tallfir - We are booked on the same cruise, Viking Star, October 24-November 10, Panama Canal,  and noticed the same thing. We wondered if Cartagena had been dropped due to a change in the US State Department changing its travel advisory from 2 to 3 ("Exercise Increased Caution" to "Reconsider Travel") for Colombia on May 11.  We called Viking yesterday; the customer service rep tried to get an explanation from her supervisor; that person was also unable to find out what was going on. They agreed that if there has actually been an itinerary change that booked passengers should be notified, also that the return to Cozumel after two days at sea would not make sense, as well as the race from Cozumel to Colon. They filed a report and are supposed to get back to us by phone call and/or email.

 

[junglejane]

We're on this cruise so I'm following this thread to see what you figure out. This will be our first time on Viking.

[tallfir]

lindajpe - Thanks for the additional information. I also called Viking Customer Service and spoke to a rep. and her supervisor. Both were absolutely clueless! I look forward to seeing what kind of response you receive. 

 

I have been to Cartagena several times over the last 25 years. My first visit to Cartagena was in 1998 and there were armed military soldiers on almost every street corner. As a newbie cruiser from rural Oregon, I was really shocked! My last visit in March of this year, things were crowded but no military with guns. Cartagena is a large modern cosmopolitan city with a very long history. I chuckled to myself upon hearing the local tour guide lamenting the problems caused by all the illegal immigrants flooding Columbia. LOL.

 

 

[BigBee51]

We too are on this cruise. We like sea days but I think this particular cruise has plenty and will be sorely disappointed in Viking if they add another sea day if Cartagena is off the table. We did plenty of slow cruising last summer when they added multiple sea days due to Russia invading Ukraine.

Edited June 12, 2023 by BigBee51

[junglejane]

@BigBee51 We had the same thought. This is our first Viking cruise and while we like sea days this cruise already had more than we're used to, and we'll be a little disappointed if there is yet another.

[Heidi13]

A couple of issues are involved.

 

Since this is Port Everglades to San Pedro, this is a coastal voyage between 2 US ports, so the PVSA is applicable. For a foreign-flagged ship to carry pax between 2 US ports, she must visit a distant foreign port.

 

A distant foreign port in this region includes Cartagena and the ABC islands, it does not include any of Central America or other Caribbean ports. Therefore, on these cruises, Cartagena is normally added for PVSA compliance. If Cartagena is cancelled, then Viking needs to substitute another distant foreign port.

 

Affirmative, Cozumel to Colon is not possible overnight, as cruise ships need to be at the Colon breakwater by about 05:30.

 

Hardly surprising the L/A office, even at the supervisor level, is not aware of this most basic information.

[junglejane]

2 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

A distant foreign port in this region includes Cartagena and the ABC islands, it does not include any of Central America or other Caribbean ports. Therefore, on these cruises, Cartagena is normally added for PVSA compliance. If Cartagena is cancelled, then Viking needs to substitute another distant foreign port.

What are the other options for a distant foreign port besides Cartagena? Aruba?

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, junglejane said:

What are the other options for a distant foreign port besides Cartagena? Aruba?

 

Bonaire, Curacao and any South American port except those in panama.

[May B]

4 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

A couple of issues are involved.

 

Since this is Port Everglades to San Pedro, this is a coastal voyage between 2 US ports, so the PVSA is applicable. For a foreign-flagged ship to carry pax between 2 US ports, she must visit a distant foreign port.

 

A distant foreign port in this region includes Cartagena and the ABC islands, it does not include any of Central America or other Caribbean ports. Therefore, on these cruises, Cartagena is normally added for PVSA compliance. If Cartagena is cancelled, then Viking needs to substitute another distant foreign port.

 

Affirmative, Cozumel to Colon is not possible overnight, as cruise ships need to be at the Colon breakwater by about 05:30.

 

Hardly surprising the L/A office, even at the supervisor level, is not aware of this most basic information.

I believe they made the same error when initialing offering Octantis itineraries, in 2022, first year in the St Lawrence and Great Lakes, going Canadian port to a different Canadian port.

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, May B said:

I believe they made the same error when initialing offering Octantis itineraries, in 2022, first year in the St Lawrence and Great Lakes, going Canadian port to a different Canadian port.

 

Similar, as the PVSA is not applicable in Canadian Ports, but we also have Cabotage Laws, specifically the Coasting Trade Act. While not as clearly defined as the PVSA, it can provide more latitude. A good example is the number of round trip cruises from Vancouver.

 

Foreign-flagged ships can operate in this trade, but must make application to the Minister of Transport, who must determine if any Canadian vessels can provide the service. Clearly we have no cruise ships capable of sailing to Alaska, but do have vessels operating on the Great Lakes.

 

So in the case of the Expedition Ships, the L/A Office had not anticipated pax booking multiple cruises and therefore hadn't completed the research and due diligence. 

[May B]

4 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Similar, as the PVSA is not applicable in Canadian Ports, but we also have Cabotage Laws, specifically the Coasting Trade Act. While not as clearly defined as the PVSA, it can provide more latitude. A good example is the number of round trip cruises from Vancouver.

 

Foreign-flagged ships can operate in this trade, but must make application to the Minister of Transport, who must determine if any Canadian vessels can provide the service. Clearly we have no cruise ships capable of sailing to Alaska, but do have vessels operating on the Great Lakes.

 

So in the case of the Expedition Ships, the L/A Office had not anticipated pax booking multiple cruises and therefore hadn't completed the research and due diligence. 

Ah, now I remember it better! B2Bs were the ones that wouldn’t work. And of course guests are always flummoxed when they’re trying to spend gaboodles of mine but there’s no way to do it legally. 

[tallfir]

This discussion of the American PVSA just adds to the absolute stupidity of these laws. Hundreds of foreign flagged ships leave West coast ports every year from San Diego, LA, SF and Seattle and the government allows them to use Ensenada and Victoria as "distant foreign ports" or whatever loophole or exception they can dream up. The only thing more stupid is Viking not explaining why the potential unattainable itinerary has been posted on MVJ. None of this frustration would be necessary if Viking just left the itinerary on its original schedule. They could wait until the last minute after the cruise departed from Florida and then inform the passengers of the change. They give themselves the right to do that for almost any reason in the cruise contract. What could the paying passengers do? 

[junglejane]

9 hours ago, tallfir said:

Hundreds of foreign flagged ships leave West coast ports every year from San Diego, LA, SF and Seattle and the government allows them to use Ensenada and Victoria as "distant foreign ports" or whatever loophole or exception they can dream up.

As @Heidi13 explained above better than I can, different rules apply to closed loop cruises. For example, the cruises from LA to Hawaii can get away with a call in Ensenada because they are closed loop cruises, so they just need to go to a foreign port, not a "distant" one. But this cruise is a full transit and needs to go to a "distant foreign port."

[Cienfuegos]

On 6/12/2023 at 6:22 PM, Heidi13 said:

 

So in the case of the Expedition Ships, the L/A Office had not anticipated pax booking multiple cruises and therefore hadn't completed the research and due diligence. 

I'll speculate that the wholesale layoff of experienced employees at Viking may have contributed to this problem.  Many companies eliminated decades of institutional knowledge in the pandemic, forced retirements, layoffs, etc. People who had the depth of knowledge to remember "there was an issue back in 1994", etc.

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, Cienfuegos said:

I'll speculate that the wholesale layoff of experienced employees at Viking may have contributed to this problem.  Many companies eliminated decades of institutional knowledge in the pandemic, forced retirements, layoffs, etc. People who had the depth of knowledge to remember "there was an issue back in 1994", etc.

 

I concur that the employee turnover contributes to the day to day issues being reported.

 

However, compliance with local Cabotage Regulations is a basic issue when operating foreign-flagged ships on voyages not classed as an International Voyage. Prior to opening bookings the managers should have researched both the Canadian & US Cabotage Laws and implemented policies to ensure compliance.

 

If managers are not aware of different requirements for International and Coastal voyages, they should be encouraged to seek employment more suited to their skill sets. Since I have dealt with the same managers for a number of years, I am not aware of any large turnover with the decision makers, so I'll suggest this is not a contributing factor.

[Cienfuegos]

17 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

 Since I have dealt with the same managers for a number of years, I am not aware of any large turnover with the decision makers, so I'll suggest this is not a contributing factor.

Thanks for that perspective.  Which deepens the fog of Why Didn't They Plan For This?

[debnpaul]

I am on the 2/17/2024 date of a similar Panama Canal itinerary and we have just lost Jamaica as a port, and Cozumel is listed a second time in its place.    We like Cozumel a lot, but I’m not sure I want to go there twice on the same cruise!  I am guessing we will also see further changes to the itinerary. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by debnpaul

[oskidunker]

Lot of crime in Jamaica but not sure Cozumel is any better

[grifdoglover]

The Panama Canal is experiencing EXTREME drought conditions.  Vital Commercial shipping is being affected.

[OneSixtyToOne]

2 hours ago, grifdoglover said:

The Panama Canal is experiencing EXTREME drought conditions.  Vital Commercial shipping is being affected.

Interesting. The design of the canal succeeded where others failed because it used the enormous amounts of water available to operate the canal efficiently. I can see how a drought might severely impact operations.

[OneSixtyToOne]

5 hours ago, grifdoglover said:

The Panama Canal is experiencing EXTREME drought conditions.  Vital Commercial shipping is being affected.

Here is an NPR article from 2008 about the situation. Part of the problem is the size of the new locks.

Edited June 16, 2023 by OneSixtyToOne

[trebor900]

On 6/15/2023 at 6:11 PM, debnpaul said:

I am on the 2/17/2024 date of a similar Panama Canal itinerary and we have just lost Jamaica as a port, and Cozumel is listed a second time in its place.    We like Cozumel a lot, but I’m not sure I want to go there twice on the same cruise!  I am guessing we will also see further changes to the itinerary. 

We are on the Panama Canal and Central America in November.  We have been told that the itinerary is now reversed and will be Visiting Montego Bay first and Cozumel last and they are in the process of updating.  The itinerary on the Viking website has been updated, but MVJ not as yet. I have been assured we won't be visiting Cozumel twice.

[junglejane]

Other itineraries can add a stop in Jamaica (the pros and cons of which are a separate question), but the Ft Lauderdale-Los Angeles cruise "needs" Cartagena to comply with the PVSA.  The ABC islands are an alternative, but they are further away and probably more expensive for Viking.