Resilient Lady Cancelled Australian Season

[-The-True-North-]

Someone said it best. Best case for VV is to be sold off and placed as a subsidiary of another company (most likely Royal Caribbean).

 

They did some things great. And other things terrible.

[notme2012]

4 hours ago, Tolkmit said:

 

Virgin hasn't been lying; but they have been making statements open to interpretation. They say the season in Australia was successful. It probably was in the sense that it got better than targeted post-cruise survey ratings. It almost certainly wasn't in a financial sense. People infer them claiming a successful season to mean they were happy with the result, which them cancelling this upcoming season suggests isn't true. But Virgin didn't actually lie.

 

If Applebee's decided they didn't care about making money and dropped their prices by 90%; they'd have amazing reviews and be winning awards from people who were used to eating at McDonalds and Taco Bell. If instead of lowering prices, Applebee's doubled their prices overnight, their reviews would tank from what they currently are. Virgin was amazing when they were charging half of what they charge now and gave you tons of onboard credit to go with it, especially when the ships weren't sailing full. All of that is changing now that they are trying to be a successful company; so referencing reviews from people who paid 12 or 24 months ago prices isn't very relevant. Virgin was amazing for the price. But some of the issues that were excused based on them being new, ignored based on the low price, or minimalized by the low population onboard; are starting to be talked about a lot more. Yes, there are some posters who are hardcore fans who will defend Virgin no matter what. But reviews of start-up prices Virgin is not a good response to reviews of today's prices Virgin.

You hit the nail on the head! Shortcomings are forgivable when weighed against price and conditions. Virgin Voyages is so hyped up now, it is leading to a very hard fall from grace. I was so disappointed with the food quality on our cruise. That alone leads me away from VV!

[wolfie11]

I cruise a lot.  In the last few years I’ve been on Princess, RCI, and Celebrity, as well as Viking, Regent, Cunard, Hurtigruten, Alaska Dream Cruises, and Virgin.  I really can’t stand the mainstream cruise lines anymore.  They nickel and dime, everything is a hard sell, constant announcements to urge people to the casino, shops, art auctions, bingo, and whatever else makes them money. And they absolutely lie to you.  I recently cruised Virgin and I have to say, they made cruising fun again.  Everything was pretty laid back with no frantic efforts to get you to spend, spend, spend.  Sailor’s loot so I could choose a budget that matched my drink consumption rather than having to spend almost the cost of another cruise on a drink package that was way more than I’d ever use.  Lots of free “classes” and activities that have mostly been discontinued on the Walmarts of the Seas.  I would gladly go on a Virgin cruise again.  My problem is that of all places in the world to go, the two I loathe the most are the Caribbean/Mexico and the Med in summer.  I wish they would expand their itineraries to more interesting places and I would jump onboard anytime.

[DCGuy64]

12 hours ago, Tolkmit said:

 

Virgin hasn't been lying; but they have been making statements open to interpretation. They say the season in Australia was successful. It probably was in the sense that it got better than targeted post-cruise survey ratings. It almost certainly wasn't in a financial sense. People infer them claiming a successful season to mean they were happy with the result, which them cancelling this upcoming season suggests isn't true. But Virgin didn't actually lie.

 

If Applebee's decided they didn't care about making money and dropped their prices by 90%; they'd have amazing reviews and be winning awards from people who were used to eating at McDonalds and Taco Bell. If instead of lowering prices, Applebee's doubled their prices overnight, their reviews would tank from what they currently are. Virgin was amazing when they were charging half of what they charge now and gave you tons of onboard credit to go with it, especially when the ships weren't sailing full. All of that is changing now that they are trying to be a successful company; so referencing reviews from people who paid 12 or 24 months ago prices isn't very relevant. Virgin was amazing for the price. But some of the issues that were excused based on them being new, ignored based on the low price, or minimalized by the low population onboard; are starting to be talked about a lot more. Yes, there are some posters who are hardcore fans who will defend Virgin no matter what. But reviews of start-up prices Virgin is not a good response to reviews of today's prices Virgin.

Since you quoted me in your reply, (although I wasn't responding to you in mine), I'll just say this: we have never been on a Virgin Voyages cruise. I literally only booked the very first one about 2 weeks ago. We're newbies to Virgin. I don't have a dog in this fight, so to speak. I'm keeping an open mind. I simply get tired of people accusing a company of "lying" when it comes down to someone's interpretation of things. Accusing someone of lying is a serious thing to me. If you don't have the evidence to back a charge like that up, you should be called out for it. It sounds more like a case of feeling that Virgin hasn't lived up to some of its promises, but that again is open to interpretation. Fortunately, someone who has tired of one line has many others to choose from.

[DCGuy64]

1 hour ago, wolfie11 said:

I cruise a lot.  In the last few years I’ve been on Princess, RCI, and Celebrity, as well as Viking, Regent, Cunard, Hurtigruten, Alaska Dream Cruises, and Virgin.  I really can’t stand the mainstream cruise lines anymore.  They nickel and dime, everything is a hard sell, constant announcements to urge people to the casino, shops, art auctions, bingo, and whatever else makes them money. And they absolutely lie to you.  I recently cruised Virgin and I have to say, they made cruising fun again.  Everything was pretty laid back with no frantic efforts to get you to spend, spend, spend.  Sailor’s loot so I could choose a budget that matched my drink consumption rather than having to spend almost the cost of another cruise on a drink package that was way more than I’d ever use.  Lots of free “classes” and activities that have mostly been discontinued on the Walmarts of the Seas.  I would gladly go on a Virgin cruise again.  My problem is that of all places in the world to go, the two I loathe the most are the Caribbean/Mexico and the Med in summer.  I wish they would expand their itineraries to more interesting places and I would jump onboard anytime.

We haven't cruised with as many lines as you have, but based on what I understand about VV, their model of doing things differently is one of the things I find most attractive about them. No constant hard-selling of spa treatments, excursions, art auctions, future cruises, jewelry, photography, etc. Most everything included, even sodas and sparkling water, all the restaurants, the list goes on and on. Our cruise is not until January 2025, but I'm already looking forward to it. We still cruise with the traditional concept, too, but it'll be nice to try something different. For one thing, my wife is vegetarian, and Virgin seems to do an outstanding job of accommodating her dietary needs. 

[WanderingTravels]

7 hours ago, wolfie11 said:

I cruise a lot.  In the last few years I’ve been on Princess, RCI, and Celebrity, as well as Viking, Regent, Cunard, Hurtigruten, Alaska Dream Cruises, and Virgin.  I really can’t stand the mainstream cruise lines anymore.  They nickel and dime, everything is a hard sell, constant announcements to urge people to the casino, shops, art auctions, bingo, and whatever else makes them money. And they absolutely lie to you.  I recently cruised Virgin and I have to say, they made cruising fun again.  Everything was pretty laid back with no frantic efforts to get you to spend, spend, spend.  Sailor’s loot so I could choose a budget that matched my drink consumption rather than having to spend almost the cost of another cruise on a drink package that was way more than I’d ever use.  Lots of free “classes” and activities that have mostly been discontinued on the Walmarts of the Seas.  I would gladly go on a Virgin cruise again.  My problem is that of all places in the world to go, the two I loathe the most are the Caribbean/Mexico and the Med in summer.  I wish they would expand their itineraries to more interesting places and I would jump onboard anytime.

 

Like where?

[wolfie11]

37 minutes ago, WanderingTravels said:

 

Like where?

In the past eight years or so - Alaska, Japan, the Med, British Isles, Australia, New Zealand, French Polynesia, Panama Canal, South America, and Antarctica. Before that some cruising in Europe, Asia, China, and Cuba.  

[WanderingTravels]

6 minutes ago, wolfie11 said:

In the past eight years or so - Alaska, Japan, the Med, British Isles, Australia, New Zealand, French Polynesia, Panama Canal, South America, and Antarctica. Before that some cruising in Europe, Asia, China, and Cuba.  

I meant where besides the Caribbean and Med would you like Virgin to go?  The ships are big so they do have limitations.

[wolfie11]

21 minutes ago, WanderingTravels said:

I meant where besides the Caribbean and Med would you like Virgin to go?  The ships are big so they do have limitations.

Sorry, basically anywhere on the above list.  Alaska would be nice with crossings from Japan, although I think Alaska is over capacity now on ships.  Iceland, British Isles, Norway, South Pacific and Polynesia.  Go back to Australia with better itineraries. They’re not that big at around 900 feet long, compared to the Colossus of the Seas ships and can get into medium sized ports.  

[gumshoe958]

1 hour ago, wolfie11 said:

Sorry, basically anywhere on the above list.  Alaska would be nice with crossings from Japan, although I think Alaska is over capacity now on ships.  Iceland, British Isles, Norway, South Pacific and Polynesia.  Go back to Australia with better itineraries. They’re not that big at around 900 feet long, compared to the Colossus of the Seas ships and can get into medium sized ports.  

VV’s USP seems to revolve around partying by night and chilling out by day rather than visiting scenic destinations so I can’t really see them doing Iceland, Alaska or Norway.

[jon81uk]

10 minutes ago, gumshoe958 said:

VV’s USP seems to revolve around partying by night and chilling out by day rather than visiting scenic destinations so I can’t really see them doing Iceland, Alaska or Norway.

They are doing Iceland next year.

[gumshoe958]

2 minutes ago, jon81uk said:

They are doing Iceland next year.

I stand corrected! I guess it does kind of fit in the chilling category. 

[Tralfaz1138]

9 minutes ago, jon81uk said:

They are doing Iceland next year.

One of the Iceland routes also has Bergen as a stop, so Norway will be covered somewhat.  There's also a cruise around Scotland and Ireland so the British Isles are in there.

 

There's some hope for Alaska also at some point.  Someone else posted a port schedule for Oregon with Brilliant Lady on there for May 2026, so that could be on the way to an Alaska route.

[notme2012]

2 hours ago, WanderingTravels said:

I meant where besides the Caribbean and Med would you like Virgin to go?  The ships are big so they do have limitations.

At 110,000 gross tons, the Lady ships are not considered "big" compared to ships that have been introduced in the last 10 years. The biggest issue Lady ships have is they cannot transit the Panama Canal. Supposedly the Brilliant Lady was altered to fit the Panama Canal.

 

In my opinion, VV would not sell well in markets that don't have enough young people to "fit their concept" of cruising. Which is what happened in Oceania. Most Millennials and Gen Z do not have the extra funds to do $3000k cruise plus airfare OR they have kids! 

 

Which the Americas and Europe probably have the demographics, funds, etc. But they don't have the desire to cruise. Virgin Voyages marketing plan is very flawed. The average age on VV sailings is over age 50.

[jon81uk]

18 hours ago, notme2012 said:

Virgin Voyages marketing plan is very flawed. The average age on VV sailings is over age 50.

I think the average age they are marketing at now is 35-55. They know those are the people with some money, who don’t want to be round kids and still are young at heart and will party when they don’t have to worry about looking after kids. Look at the Karma Chameleon video from last year, most of the couples shown are 50+ with some 30+.

 

[wolfie11]

13 hours ago, jon81uk said:

I think the average age they are marketing at now is 35-55. They know those are the people with some money, who don’t want to be round kids and still are young at heart and will party when they don’t have to worry about looking after kids. Look at the Karma Chameleon video from last year, most of the couples shown are 50+ with some 30+.

 

I had an interesting conversation with someone from Virgin last time I was onboard.  It turns out people in their 50’s and 60’s really like sailing on Virgin.  With the new ship coming out they will be doing more 7-10 day cruises to cater to the older demographic in the Med and Caribbean.  

[notme2012]

On 3/28/2024 at 4:39 PM, gumshoe958 said:

VV’s USP seems to revolve around partying by night and chilling out by day rather than visiting scenic destinations so I can’t really see them doing Iceland, Alaska or Norway.

VV provides very little to mostly no port information. My cruise went into 3 NZ fjords. There was a small bit of commentary, but that was the only info provided on my 12 night cruise.

[Stewie0353]

We were booked to sail Australia this coming December and built a family and friends Christmas around it. Virgin decided to cancel that and are now booking the Resilient Lady for more profitable voyages. To date I have only been refunded the 2nd payment but have no news of where the $1590 deposit is! There will be many thousands of Australian travellers in this boat. Can anyone enlighten me where we stand with the deposit, travel insurance and destroyed plans? I have booked with Princess in May 2025. 

[notme2012]

22 minutes ago, Stewie0353 said:

We were booked to sail Australia this coming December and built a family and friends Christmas around it. Virgin decided to cancel that and are now booking the Resilient Lady for more profitable voyages. To date I have only been refunded the 2nd payment but have no news of where the $1590 deposit is! There will be many thousands of Australian travellers in this boat. Can anyone enlighten me where we stand with the deposit, travel insurance and destroyed plans? I have booked with Princess in May 2025. 

If you have no intentions of rebooking with Virgin, then you need to challenge the charges with your CC company. I sincerely doubt they will provide any help because they did the cancelations almost a year prior to your sailing date.

[The_Big_M]

16 hours ago, Stewie0353 said:

We were booked to sail Australia this coming December and built a family and friends Christmas around it. Virgin decided to cancel that and are now booking the Resilient Lady for more profitable voyages. To date I have only been refunded the 2nd payment but have no news of where the $1590 deposit is! There will be many thousands of Australian travellers in this boat. Can anyone enlighten me where we stand with the deposit, travel insurance and destroyed plans? I have booked with Princess in May 2025. 

 

For the deposit you should contact them. If you booked direct you should be able to get it fairly quickly, but if you went through a TA then it will take longer, and may involve fun and games with them as some of them make refunds difficult. (They shouldn't - but some do.)

 

As for the travel insurance, contact your insurer - they may likely be able to transfer it to another cruise when you explain the situation.

[notme2012]

On 2/26/2024 at 5:42 PM, CruisingWalter said:

 

Honest question for those of you who sailed in Australia.  How full were the ships?  From the little information I was able to glean, it didn't sound like the sailings in Australia were sailing full.  Just curious for those who actually sailed the ships in Australia, were the ships sold our or sailing light? 

Our cruise, March 15th sailing, was 91% full, or 2550 pax. The design of these ships does not work with that many people. Also, most of our 6 sea days, the deck areas were closed because it was raining or windy. 

[notme2012]

On 3/27/2024 at 7:47 AM, DCGuy64 said:

What would you have had them say instead? "We lost money on the Aussie market, so we're out of here?" I can't remember the last time a corporation said something like that.

American car companies have stated numerous times that car models were being discontinued because they did not make money on that model. Heck, even Toyota and Honda have done the same. It is generally accepted when a company discontinues a product or service, the rationale is they're not making a profit. Some companies are forward and state the facts, others let media draw the conclusions. 

[DCGuy64]

8 hours ago, notme2012 said:

American car companies have stated numerous times that car models were being discontinued because they did not make money on that model. Heck, even Toyota and Honda have done the same. It is generally accepted when a company discontinues a product or service, the rationale is they're not making a profit. Some companies are forward and state the facts, others let media draw the conclusions. 

Then if that's the case, I blame the Aussies. If they can't sustain a cruise company, the cruise company has every right to abandon that market.

[notme2012]

8 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Then if that's the case, I blame the Aussies. If they can't sustain a cruise company, the cruise company has every right to abandon that market.

Yes and no. How to start a cruise line from scratch was defined by Disney Cruise Lines. Start small, DCL had just 2 ships for years. Stay in a market that you know that your inventory will always sell, DCL sailed just from Port Canaveral for years. Virgin Voyages could have followed that formula and would have been very successful. Just by staying in the Caribbean, they could have been more successful financially, etc.  Instead they ordered all these ships, then Covid, then all the cancelations, etc. Logistically running a cruise line is basically the same. VV just changed the on-board experiences. Like many have said, VV just does not have the logistics to operate worldwide. 

 

Our cruise from NZ to Sydney was 90%+ full. But many of the other sailings, were less than 50%, even with huge price incentives. Princess does plenty of cruises from Australia, many times they have 3 ships in that area. The market exists in Oceania, but VV just isn't marketing in a way that attracts people to book. 

Edited April 12 by notme2012

[Tolkmit]

5 hours ago, notme2012 said:

Yes and no. How to start a cruise line from scratch was defined by Disney Cruise Lines. Start small, DCL had just 2 ships for years. Stay in a market that you know that your inventory will always sell, DCL sailed just from Port Canaveral for years. Virgin Voyages could have followed that formula and would have been very successful. Just by staying in the Caribbean, they could have been more successful financially, etc.  Instead they ordered all these ships, then Covid, then all the cancelations, etc. Logistically running a cruise line is basically the same. VV just changed the on-board experiences. Like many have said, VV just does not have the logistics to operate worldwide. 

 

Our cruise from NZ to Sydney was 90%+ full. But many of the other sailings, were less than 50%, even with huge price incentives. Princess does plenty of cruises from Australia, many times they have 3 ships in that area. The market exists in Oceania, but VV just isn't marketing in a way that attracts people to book. 

 

Disney Cruise Line was operating at a significant loss for it's first 5 years, and was propped up by the rest of the company. It then starting managing to break even, but went back to losing money and needed to once again be propped up externally, in order to expand. It wasn't until it had 4 ships running that it actually started gaining traction in the market, and making enough money to expand without needing external help. If there is any lesson from DCL; it's that, if you are going to have ships operating around the size and price range of Virgin; you need to have at least 4 to have hope of growing the company.

 

I don't think Virgin's marketing plan for Australia was the problem. The issue was their business plan plus covid. Virgin knew it would be operating at a loss for a few years as it sold cruises for cheap in order to build a customer base in the US market. I believe they planned to increase prices in the US market, then use the profit from that to sustain losses in the Mediterranean and Australian markets while they built a customer base there as well. Covid delayed them becoming profitable in the US markets; but they tried to get started elsewhere anyways, hoping the positive reviews & word of mouth from the US market would give them enough of a jump start in the Mediterranean and Australia. It didn't work. They were still going to be operating at a significant loss in both markets this year. So, when the opportunity came to break their Australia contracts due to international issues; they took it. They can make money in the US with the increased prices, and focus on building their customer base in the Med; then in a year or two, once they can start making money off the Med, use that plus the US profits to sustain losses in Australia and build a customer base there. Once they are making money all 3 places, then they expand.
It's all speculation, obviously; but it's a theory that makes sense and fits the facts.

 

Don't get me wrong, Virgin has some planning issues that have contributed to everything. From the start, they didn't want to just be an upscale, adults only version of already existing cruise lines, they wanted to do things differently. So rather than take what other cruise lines do and make it their own, they built from the ground up. I think a lot of the stuff that most of us really like about Virgin comes from them doing it that way. Unfortunately, they've also created a lot of problems for themselves by not learning from other cruise lines mistakes, and it's going to be very interesting if they are able to tackle some of those problems without losing what makes them special going forward.