Saga cruise ship sale/sale and lease?

[nosapphire]

Just for information.

https://news.sky.com/story/saga-sets-post-easter-deadline-for-cruise-operation-suitors-13099348

Bear in mind that Saga have never owned any of their river cruise ships - they are all chartered, and nobody worries about that.

IF the ocean ships transfer ownership, it will probably work in a very similar manner - book with Saga, pay Saga, deal with Saga, travel with Saga, under Saga terms and conditions.

Actual ownership of the vessels will not have much affect.

(unless, of course, the two companies have a dispute about terms....)

(drat, wish I hadn't thought of that).

 

[Cynthia Darch]

As long as Saga don't go down the same route as when Carnival took P&O over .. soooo many awful changes as time moved on and now, well that's why so many of us moved away from them and sooo happy we did.

[Denarius]

5 hours ago, nosapphire said:

Just for information.

https://news.sky.com/story/saga-sets-post-easter-deadline-for-cruise-operation-suitors-13099348

Bear in mind that Saga have never owned any of their river cruise ships - they are all chartered, and nobody worries about that.

IF the ocean ships transfer ownership, it will probably work in a very similar manner - book with Saga, pay Saga, deal with Saga, travel with Saga, under Saga terms and conditions.

Actual ownership of the vessels will not have much affect.

(unless, of course, the two companies have a dispute about terms....)

(drat, wish I hadn't thought of that).

 

I have taken several river cruises with Riviera travel. They are of a similar standard to Saga's river cruises. Riviera do not own any of their ships. All are leased from other owners, principally the Swiss family owned company Scylla which builds some ships specifically for long term lease to Riviera. Scylla operate the ships and employ all the staff apart from the cruise director and his/her assistant, who are the only Riviera employees onboard. Other cruise companies may have similar but less transparent arrangements.

[Goddess-Freja]

Its going to be announced after Easter Norwegian cruise Lines will take over Saga.

 

On 3/22/2024 at 11:49 AM, nosapphire said:

Just for information.

https://news.sky.com/story/saga-sets-post-easter-deadline-for-cruise-operation-suitors-13099348

Bear in mind that Saga have never owned any of their river cruise ships - they are all chartered, and nobody worries about that.

IF the ocean ships transfer ownership, it will probably work in a very similar manner - book with Saga, pay Saga, deal with Saga, travel with Saga, under Saga terms and conditions.

Actual ownership of the vessels will not have much affect.

(unless, of course, the two companies have a dispute about terms....)

(drat, wish I hadn't thought of that).

[Spence55]

40 minutes ago, Goddess-Freja said:

Its going to be announced after Easter Norwegian cruise Lines will take over Saga.

 

That’s a pretty sweeping statement without reference to a source. Are you saying NCL is purchasing the ships and the cruise business? 

[Spence55]

W

30 minutes ago, nosapphire said:

New member.

Single post.

Norwegian Troll?

Who knows? It wouid be an interesting development if true. The latest report attributed EBITDA of £40 million per ship. Unfortunately for shareholders the ‘I’ stands for interest payable on debt. But if the board wants to realise value, the cruise business would be a logical acquisition for one of the bigger players seeking to increase market share. 

[Denarius]

1 hour ago, Spence55 said:

W

Who knows? It wouid be an interesting development if true. The latest report attributed EBITDA of £40 million per ship. Unfortunately for shareholders the ‘I’ stands for interest payable on debt. But if the board wants to realise value, the cruise business would be a logical acquisition for one of the bigger players seeking to increase market share. 

I will be interested to see what form the deal takes if and when it is agreed. Will the new partner own and operate the ships like Scylla provide ships to Riviera travel (see my earlier post #3) or will it just own the ships with Saga renting them on long term lease and operating them itself?

[Goddess-Freja]

8 hours ago, Goddess-Freja said:

My mum was told on a cruise this week

This is how I know (not a Norwegian troll 🤣)

[nosapphire]

10 hours ago, Goddess-Freja said:

My mum was told on a cruise this week

You will find that the majority of people on these boards will not place much credence in unspecified hearsay, well meaning or otherwise.

If you elaborate, such as which cruise line and who told your mum (for example, another passenger? an Officers table at dinner?) it may get more credit, but at the minute it is just gossip.

 

It may well be a case that NCL are throwing their hat into the ring, and will be one of the suitors announced as interested parties -  but would seem surprising that a "done deal" would be announced while interested parties are still being invited, after which (one assumes) due diligence has to be undertaken, along with getting the banks (who own the ships) to agree the sale.

 

[Goddess-Freja]

3 hours ago, nosapphire said:

You will find that the majority of people on these boards will not place much credence in unspecified hearsay, well meaning or otherwise.

If you elaborate, such as which cruise line and who told your mum (for example, another passenger? an Officers table at dinner?) it may get more credit, but at the minute it is just gossip.

 

It may well be a case that NCL are throwing their hat into the ring, and will be one of the suitors announced as interested parties -  but would seem surprising that a "done deal" would be announced while interested parties are still being invited, after which (one assumes) due diligence has to be undertaken, along with getting the banks (who own the ships) to agree the sale.

 

Currently on saga cruise and it was an officer who told her. So straight from the proverbial. But don’t take my word for it, you’ll see for yourself just after Easter.

[Wivvy]

Entirely feasible - as would be an Easter embargo. Anyone who's broken that embargo would be putting quite a lot at risk in terms of legal consequences.  Would anyone be that crazy?

[LondonLad60]

28 minutes ago, Windsurfboy said:

As said above , very strict rules on information about this type of thing, doubt if more than a handful in head office are privy to these negotiations.  Not even Captains will be in the loop.

I was on P&O's Oriana when rumours were flying around about her being sold. At a Peninsular Club lunch the senior officer (I think it was the deputy captain) was asked if he knew anything. He straight batted the question back with the standard reply, "We are not aware of any plans to sell Oriana". A lady on the table said, "This ship has been sold". She was asked, do you mean it's up for sale? She said, "No, it has been sold - and that's all I'm saying". Within a week or so, the sale was announced...

[Denarius]

16 minutes ago, Wivvy said:

Entirely feasible - as would be an Easter embargo. Anyone who's broken that embargo would be putting quite a lot at risk in terms of legal consequences.  Would anyone be that crazy?

One would hope not, for their sake. Disclosure of confidential price sensitive informaion which could materially affect share values is a very serious matter. Where the source to be identified the very least they could expect would be to lose their job.

Edited March 29 by Denarius

[Minor Mariner]

Let's wait and see. Quite possibly just a bit of fanciful gossip, although something is going to happen and the sooner it does the better for all concerned.

[Mollag]

16 hours ago, LondonLad60 said:

I was on P&O's Oriana when rumours were flying around about her being sold. At a Peninsular Club lunch the senior officer (I think it was the deputy captain) was asked if he knew anything. He straight batted the question back with the standard reply, "We are not aware of any plans to sell Oriana". A lady on the table said, "This ship has been sold". She was asked, do you mean it's up for sale? She said, "No, it has been sold - and that's all I'm saying". Within a week or so, the sale was announced...

On our recent Aurora cruise one of the officers was telling people that P&O were buying SAGA, he was most taken aback when I said god forbid that happens and SAGA gets dragged down to P&Os level. 

[Denarius]

4 hours ago, Mollag said:

On our recent Aurora cruise one of the officers was telling people that P&O were buying SAGA, he was most taken aback when I said god forbid that happens and SAGA gets dragged down to P&Os level. 

I doubt whether NCL are likely to be in the frame as their operations and market positioning are far removed from Saga's. There could however be an element of informed speculation present as NCL's parent company Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings also own Oceania Cruises and Regent Seven Seas Cruises as well as NCL. Both Oceania and Regent occupy a similar market position to Saga and operate smaller ships. So the acquisition of Saga as an additional sub brand alongside Oceania and Regent (or even merger with Oceania as the closest fit) may make some commercial sense.

Similarly as regards P&O. P&O would not be a good fit. But P&O's parent company Carnival Corporation also own Cunard and (perhaps more significantly) Seabourn.

Watch this space!

Edited March 30 by Denarius
Clarification

[twotravellersLondon]

11 minutes ago, Denarius said:

I doubt whether NCL are likely to be in the frame as their operations and market positioning are far removed from Saga's. There could however be an element of informed speculation present as NCL's parent company Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings also own Oceania Cruises and Regent Seven Seas Cruises as well as NCL. Both Oceania and Regent occupy a similar market position to Saga and operate smaller ships. So the acquisition of Saga as an additional sub brand alongside Oceania and Regent (or even merger with Oceania as the closest fit) may make some commercial sense.

Similarly as regards P&O. P&O would not be a good fit. But P&O's parent company Carnival Corporation also own Cunard and (perhaps more significantly) Seabourn.

Watch this space!

 

To throw a bit of factual light on some of these seemingly intentionally enigmatic hints and rumours being discussed...

 

The facts are that SAGA is currently working with the Lazard, the investment bank, on potential partnership arrangements for the cruise business. The structure of the partnership has yet to be defined. A number of options are being explored before anything is decided.

 

According to one credible report which appeared in the financial media on 21 March 2024 (and was then "piggie-backed") Prospective partners to SAGA have been asked to submit indicative offers in April.

 

The normal business procedures in these circumstances, to ensure compliance, is for the Board to wait until the deadline for submissions has past and then for a committee of the Board to open all of the submissions at the same time. Until then, submissions would normally remain "sealed under lock and key."

 

Placing things in context... SAGA's current problems relate to the car insurance market. That's been limiting SAGA's ability to generate cash and reduce debt. SAGA was in talks to sell its underwriting business to an Australian insurer but talks fell through early last year.

 

Rumours have been rife about the Ocean Cruise part of the SAGA business since there was a rash of stories in the media at the end of January 2024. 

 

At best... some of these rumours probably originate from over-imaginative minds and are based on conjecture, speculation and supposition... and may be... a bit of fanciful gossip. Some are simply "make-up." However the "tenterhooks" approach... of some of the rumours... perhaps trying to create a bit of suspense or tension in order to  concoct a bit of uneasiness or anxiety is something that we can all make our minds up on.

[nosapphire]

In addition to the very concise (and factual) clarification from twotravellersLondon..

Why do so many assume that the only bids will come from existing cruise operators?

Every possibility that an outside investment company decides a ready made cruise line is just what the portfolio needs. Lazard will have notified a variety of companies, not just existing holday/cruise/travel companies (all of which have their own debts to manage).

And there is, of course, always the possibility that Saga decide none of the bids make financial or operational sense - so nothing happens.

 

 

[JMMKUK]

We have Saga health insurance & had a letter recently saying they are partnering with BUPA for that.

Loosely based on that I can't imagine them partnering with P&O or NCL.I did wonder if the NCL rumour started because of this NCL Connect partnership announced last week.

[Bloodaxe]

2 hours ago, nosapphire said:

In addition to the very concise (and factual) clarification from twotravellersLondon..

Why do so many assume that the only bids will come from existing cruise operators?

Every possibility that an outside investment company decides a ready made cruise line is just what the portfolio needs. Lazard will have notified a variety of companies, not just existing holday/cruise/travel companies (all of which have their own debts to manage).

And there is, of course, always the possibility that Saga decide none of the bids make financial or operational sense - so nothing happens.

 

 

That is certainty a possibilIty, Royal Caribbean sold Azamara to Sycamore Partners Investment Company who were not into travel as far as I know.

They immediately purchased and refurbished another R Ship to increase the fleet to 4.

Edited March 30 by Bloodaxe

[Tothesunset]

So.... 

 

As I read it from the conjecture so far: Saga will be taken in hand by an existing cruise operator, a non-cruise operator or someone else. 

 

That clears it up, then. 

[twotravellersLondon]

On 3/28/2024 at 1:43 PM, nosapphire said:

7 minutes ago, Tothesunset said:

So.... 

 

As I read it from the conjecture so far: Saga will be taken in hand by an existing cruise operator, a non-cruise operator or someone else. 

 

That clears it up, then. 

  

 

Noop! Your conjecture confuses things.

 

The facts are that SAGA is looking at a partnership... not to "be taken in hand." SAGA has already declined unsatisfactory offers over the last few years from a private equity company and an Aussie Insurance company. 

 

[Tothesunset]

17 minutes ago, twotravellersLondon said:

 

 

The facts are that SAGA is looking at a partnership... not to "be taken in hand." SAGA has already declined unsatisfactory offers over the last few years from a private equity company and an Aussie Insurance company. 

 

Nooo....

 

Dont go spoiling this thread by stating something verifiable. 

[twotravellersLondon]

On 3/28/2024 at 12:35 PM, Goddess-Freja said:

Its going to be announced after Easter Norwegian cruise Lines will take over Saga.

 

On 3/29/2024 at 9:06 AM, nosapphire said:

at the minute it is just gossip.

 

 

That unattributed gossip is all a bit eclipsed now by the new thread..."Cruise boosts Saga’s profit, search continues for strategic partner." 🙃😇

Edited April 18 by twotravellersLondon

[GerryL13]

I'd like to add to the rumors (or rumours). When I was on a Viking ship in December, an officer told me he'd heard that Saga was building a new ship. (This officer knew some of the Saga captains.) Coincidentally, when I was on SoA in May and asked at the Captain Q&A about a third ship, he said he'd let us know as soon as he heard. I'm doing lots of wishful thinking here. I guess we'll find out when we find out.