Surprised by no Reaction - SB Sales Team

[jdk-atlga]

Greetings All,

I'm surprised that there is no reaction or comment regarding the corporate decision to roll the SB Sales team into Holland America. 

 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/people-opinions/holland-america-seabourn-combine-sales-teams-under-rob-coleman

 

I have not reached out to the Seabourn Personal Cruise Consultants (PCC) to hear how they have been impacted. Perhaps someone on this Forum has any insight or reaction.

Best, jdk

[stan01]

This is not the PCC team or the customer facing call center reps, it is the team of sales people who work with travel advisors.  Previously travel agents would have had two reps: one from HAL and another from Seabourn.  Now their HAL rep will cover Seabourn as well which the linked article spins as a "good thing" although I'd guess few would agree with that.  I think the most impacted travel agents will be "luxury" travel agents who do a lot more Seabourn than HAL business.  If your travel agent says "let me call my contact at Seabourn" it is most likely that person who is gone and they will have to build relationships with the new person.  For customers, if the advisors value proposition to customers is contacts at Seabourn to fix problems they've lost the primary person they would rely on.  The HAL sales people who are adding Seabourn will need to get familiar with the new product which will take time and will be frustrating especially to luxury advisors who want fast and high quality service for their customers.

Edited August 3 by stan01

[Vineyard View]

Interesting. I had an inkling something might have changed when I spoke with our TA recently regarding a pricing question on our trip. She had to make calls and it not only took until the following day (unusual), but I sensed that the response - which we neither one liked - was not expected. 
 

[Robisan]

3 hours ago, stan01 said:

...the team of sales people who work with travel advisors.

This redundant overhead, which costs customers at least an additional 10% in their total cruise fare, could be eliminated if they would just post "guaranteed best prices" for booking on their websites. Of course, the website would need to actually function, but still...

 

I had a chat with a FC consultant on board when I was booking a 46-day cruise. I said to the effect 'You are the seller and I am the buyer sitting across the table from each other. I don't need a TA to complete this booking, so can you please reduce my fare by eliminating the TA commission?' The answer was a flat "no." In their increasingly anachronistic view, he said TA's are essential for "selling" their product. I was effectively compelled to add a sizable four-figure surcharge to the fare to complete the booking.

 

I've never had a TA "sell" us a cruise. They've always been effectively order takers after we've done the prior Internet research on timing, itinerary, pricing, etc. I understand TAs provide some service and insurance of help with unforeseen occurrences, which some happily pay for. However, at the substantial cost above (and generally speaking) I'd rather self-insure, or at least have that option.

[BasandSyb]

Exactly the same for us Robisan. We do the work and book with Seabourn direct - and get nothing. Have done for years.
Asking the onboard FC consultant late last year the same question, we received the same answer - TAs push clients our way hence the commission, there is no direct discount. 
So this year we pushed 5 months of bookings including 5 luxury cruises and other tours, air and accom to a TA - and received nothing except for forwarded emails that we received directly anyway.

Have recently found another TA in the hope we might enjoy something as a thank you for the business and she is at least engaging with what might interest us in an active way.

It is a ridiculous game. Perhaps that’s why there’s no imperative to fix the website? The marketing people don’t believe the punters use it, but rather contact their TA. That’s a survey I’d like to respond to. 😇

[Vineyard View]

We had a TA years back that brought nothing additional to the plate. We didn’t know any peeks were provided back then. Our TA currently is a really great asset. Yes, we do all the homework on who/what/when, but she brings more to the plate than just a discount. She has helped us in the past with a big miscommunication from a FCC, and took the battle to the line directly, not giving up until a satisfactory response was provided. She has helped us when medical issues have arisen and has handled all the details needed. She has provided us with input on various lines, as she knows our style and likes/dislikes in a cruise. And the bonus round is she is a gem as a person. 
 

But SB website still will not let me view cabin availability on our cruise. How that helps them sell cruises is still beyond me. 

[stan01]

 

When the primary purpose of the travel agent is to provide money back as an on board credit or debit card and to solve problems customer support staff can't handle or by seeking exceptions to cruise line policy -- there's something wrong with the model.  

Edited August 4 by stan01

[Robisan]

5 hours ago, Vineyard View said:

Our TA currently is a really great asset.

There are no doubt some great TAs. Some may even worth more than they're paid! It would be nice to have some transparency on how much they are being paid since fare paying customers are actually footing the bill. I know nothing more than what some Google searches revealed, which was that TAs are generally paid ~10% of the fare price (excluding taxes, port fees, etc). I'm happy to be corrected or better informed if someone has more direct knowledge about this, particularly on luxury fares.

 

With many luxury cruise fares now approaching or exceeding five figures PP an ~10% TA commission is a significant fee*. Even after clawing back some of it in OBC/perks** I question whether even the best TAs are worth these four-figure fees. I wonder if you had to pay this fee directly whether you would have the same view of the cost/benefit value of your TA.

 

Perhaps it would be better for people who want TAs to contract directly for services, either by retainer or hourly fee, so the cost/benefit evaluation is clear. Additionally, IMO people really should have the choice to opt out.

 

* Note a 10% commission is actually greater percentage fee. Example: a $16,000 cruise fare ($8k/pp) would pay ~$1,600 commission. This makes the actual cruise fare $14,400, which makes $1,600 an 11.1% fee.

 

** Are they really perks if you're the one paying for them?

[Vineyard View]

Do not disagree with these arguments. Of those of us who do all the homework and know what we want, for the most part, that is easy commissions. Would I prefer a discount for doing that, absolutely! 
I do know that not all people who contact TA’s are as organized. They can be a lot of work and very time consuming.   Makes me wonder how many are luxury/experienced travelers. Regardless, there are those,  and that has to make it easier for the cruise lines….which makes the commissions more worthy. 
I doubt it will change anytime soon, but business models do change, so who knows. 
 

 

[Hlitner]

Since the story is about sales/marketing we shall keep to that topic.  Combining that aspect, and some other aspects (such as purchasing) can be advantageous to the company because of economies of scale.  On a HAL cruise, last year, we were chatting with another couple and mentioned how much we liked Seabourn.  Their response was "what is Seabourn?"  These folks had cruised hundreds of days with both Princess and HAL, but had not even heard of SB.

 

This got me thinking.  Why not have marketing materials (like brochures) for SB, at the Future Cruise Office on HAL ships?  Most cruisers who book luxury lines, get their cruise start with mass market lines.  Moving up to SB, from HAL, makes a lot of sense.  Keeping the marketing of the different brands separate, means missing out on a ready market of likely cruisers.  

 

We recently saw a similar situation with the new luxury brand, Explora Journeys.  This line is wholly owned by MSC, but when they started the new small ship luxury line (EJ) they kept it completely separate from MSC.  On MSC ships they have the "Yacht Club" which is a ship within a ship luxury product.  The folks who cruise in the YC are likely customers for any luxury line, but the MSC folks were so darn brand conscious that they truly missed the boat by not marketing to their YC customers.  After nearly a year of operations, MSC got rid of EJ's sales manager and brought in more MSC folks.  An early move of the new marketing folks has been to reach out to previous YC customers.

 

We also see this combining of resources and joint brand marketing with Silversea.  Just recently, the RCI folks decided to give past cruise loyalty credit, across their brands.  So now, somebody who has never been on Silversea, who has status with RCI or Celebrity, can immediately qualify for some of the amenities given to past loyalty customers.  It would be like HAL giving cross-brand status to Princess cruisers.  It is a good marketing ploy and one that is now spreading through the industry.  For those that would complain that this just "waters down" the benefits of the Mariners Club levels, the reality is that Club Orange has already achieved much of that gain.  

 

Marketing is not always something that will get the approval of "loyal" customers,  But the goal is to attract new customers.  If HAL were to give free laundry to anyone who has achieved Elite Status with Princess, it would likely bring in more new customers.  Those who already have 4-5* Star status with HAL would just have to lick their wounds (some folks would feel "its not fair") but they are not going elsewhere because other folks have gained an amenity.  Just consider that HAL replaced the Guest Services priority line, that used to exist for 4-5*, with a priority line for those who pay for Club Orange.  Now, a first-time HAL cruiser, who books Club Orange, gets more priority than a 5* Mariner (or even President's Club).  

 

Hank

[Vineyard View]

Hlitmer, really interesting analogy/comparison. Thanks for sharing 

[Robisan]

6 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Just recently, the RCI folks decided to give past cruise loyalty credit, across their brands.

Marriott, Hyatt, IHG etc. and the big casino operators Caesars, MGM etc. realized years ago that extending customer loyalty earnings/benefits across their brands is a winning strategy. Good on RCI and hopefully other cruise operators will do likewise. Better late than never.

[BasandSyb]

Hank - makes sense. So often we look at other lines and baulk at the last minute because of our perks.

 

It also works backwards. We recently did a HAL and it did our head in with all the + + + and ended up costing us the equivalent of Seabourn. We did find the Club Orange arrangement rather strange and continued to overhear what the regulars thought about it.

[Hlitner]

On 8/5/2024 at 7:04 PM, BasandSyb said:

Hank - makes sense. So often we look at other lines and baulk at the last minute because of our perks.

 

It also works backwards. We recently did a HAL and it did our head in with all the + + + and ended up costing us the equivalent of Seabourn. We did find the Club Orange arrangement rather strange and continued to overhear what the regulars thought about it.

We have suggested to several friends, who still like HAL, that Seabourn is a better deal when you consider equal accommodations and perks.  But, like many HAL cruisers, they want to eat dinner at 5:15 and be in bed by 9.  The idea of being on a line where dinner does not even begin until 7 and the shows are often at 9:30, does not work for many HAL customers.

 

Hank

[2SailingNomads]

I have no positive evidence but I have heard from multiple sources including a TA I met on a cruise that after a few drinks told me a good TA gets close to 18%, so they can give you a 10% discount / rebate and still make a nice profit.  My TA typically gives about 8-10% discount

 

[Isr45]

 

7 hours ago, 2SailingNomads said:

I have no positive evidence but I have heard from multiple sources including a TA I met on a cruise that after a few drinks told me a good TA gets close to 18%, so they can give you a 10% discount / rebate and still make a nice profit.  My TA typically gives about 8-10% discount

 

Think 18% would be correct. Receive 12% from my agent but have been offered 14% if guarantee continuation of Wintergarden bookings for next eighteen months. 

[Robisan]

15 hours ago, 2SailingNomads said:

...a good TA gets close to 18%...

This is an obscene mandatory tax on cruise passengers. That some of it may be clawed back as a discount (ha!) / rebate (of your own money) makes it no less obscene. There is no transparency from TAs or cruise operators on actual, true cruise fares and TA commissions. I struggle to think of a more consumer unfriendly sales and marketing structure than this.

[frantic36]

On 8/8/2024 at 3:10 AM, Robisan said:

This is an obscene mandatory tax on cruise passengers. That some of it may be clawed back as a discount (ha!) / rebate (of your own money) makes it no less obscene. There is no transparency from TAs or cruise operators on actual, true cruise fares and TA commissions. I struggle to think of a more consumer unfriendly sales and marketing structure than this.

 

 

I understand your complaint but I have never heard of any cruise line that gives a discount if you book direct rather than a TA. Do you or anyone else be able to name some?

[Dwtlion]

24 minutes ago, frantic36 said:

 

 

I understand your complaint but I have never heard of any cruise line that gives a discount if you book direct rather than a TA. Do you or anyone else be able to name some?

If a cruise line did that, they quickly would have zero TA's selling the cruise line.

[Vineyard View]

IMO it is all a bit, of not all, of a moot point. It is the business model that has been in place for a good number of years. I don’t disagree with the points made by those who make most all the choices and decisions up front and prior to engaging in booking (we fit in that category) ——-but, it probably even remotely is likely to change. 
So that leaves one with working with a really good TA who has your back, makes commissions, and  kicks back some of their commission to you….or booking direct with the cruise line and any benefits that may provide. 

[Robisan]

On 8/8/2024 at 7:18 PM, Dwtlion said:

If a cruise line did that, they quickly would have zero TA's selling the cruise line.

In the year 2024, when even the oldest cruising demographic is smartphone, computer and internet savvy, TA's "selling" just really isn't a thing anymore. I dare say that if cruise line cut their fares by the 18% TA skim and posted guaranteed low online prices, the competitive pricing advantage would more than make up for any allegedly lost TA sales.

 

Sadly, none of this exists today, nor is it likely to anytime soon. So as @Vineyard View suggests, since we're forced to pay the skim at least choose a skimmer that offers real service and some skim kickbacks. What a world...