Straights attending FOD meetings

[etoile]

. . .Yes!

You were kidding, right? Please tell me you were kidding. :rolleyes:

[Blazerboy]

Derf, he doesn't speak for me either! I have read your comments on this board for quite a while. Like many of my straight friends "out in the world," you demonstrate a healthy willingness to learn and educate others about issues that may be very far from your life ( I may have missed it if you posted that you had a family member who was/is "family" too!)

 

Stay here and post, and feel free to drop by any FOD party on my cruises. Just continue to be sensitive to the fact that a few people have the above stated "attitude," and you'll be fine, and they'll continue to be isolated.:rolleyes:

 

Andrew

[pnhmrk]

Do you object to straights posting on the "Gay" board

 

Not in moderation. If there are so many "straights" posting that the sexuality of the board changed then I would object.

[pnhmrk]

Hmm. I guess the real reason I go to an FOD event is to meet the other gay people on the ship.

 

Yes. If the FOD meetings become mixed they're no different from the Captain's Cocktail Party, The Wardroom Party or any other party.

[Blazerboy]

LOL, I didn't realize the board...or this area of it...had its own sexuality!:D Most inanimate objects I know haven't come out of the closet....

 

O.k., so I live in Gay Mecca, and we actually study these things (Seriously, I helped create the minor in LGBT studies at SFSU!)....but it's really pretty basic, folks. This area is to discuss cruising issues that apply to G/L/B/T/Q/Q/I etc. people. It is NOT necessarily only for G/L/B/T/Q/Q/I etc. people! There is NO requirement to be one of the aforementioned to chat about the issues. If posts are so off topic (O.k., when guys post here asking about the best cruises to meet single women....:rolleyes: ) you just ask the moderators to move the thread to the "singles" area. :)

 

Beyond that, MY goal (which I realize you may not all share) would be to have LOTS of straight folks here, at least reading, so that there's a bridge being built, not a wall being put up!

 

Now sing "Kumbaya" together, and let's roast some marshmellows.:cool:

 

Andrew

[CindyM64]

Derf/ette, please don't leave the thread...you started it, for cryin' out loud! I love the fact that you care enough to be interested in what others think, to look things up you (or I) don't know, and to learn from different perspectives. I understand that you don't want to be where you don't feel welcome and safe to express yourself, however, because I feel the same way.

 

There have been some very legitimate and thoughtful responses to this issue from the overwhelming majority of posters, which I've very much enjoyed reading. Those posts that aren't as thoughtful and respectful speak for themselves, and while the writer has every right to voice his/her opinion, we have every right to choose not to be hurt or offended. There are thousands of people reading this thread, in addition to those of us posting, so don't let all of us down by leaving now. :o

 

I'm not going to attempt to get too philosophical or psychological here, because it's a cruise vacation forum. Derf/ette, you asked a simple, yet thought-provokingly good question, and there have been a lot of different answers. A random thought I had about perhaps attending an FOD gathering on my next cruise now looks more like walking into a minefield. So I have to ask myself...do I really want to put myself through that on my freaking vacation? And even if the answer to that is "maybe," I would never want to do anything to make a FOD uncomfortable at what should be a really fun, no-stress event for him/her.

 

I've learned a lot more from this than I ever would have imagined, and I too hope we can continue the discussion without it going up in flames.

 

Cindy

[aaerobear]

Let's have a big "FABULOUS" for Andrew and TXFLYER.

 

I feel as you do, we can be open and welcoming to anyone who wants to join in, and can put up with all the baggage some of us seem to bring along :eek:

 

Ed

[txflyer]

This area is to discuss cruising issues that apply to G/L/B/T/Q/Q/I etc. people. It is NOT necessarily only for G/L/B/T/Q/Q/I etc. people! There is NO requirement to be one of the aforementioned to chat about the issues. If posts are so off topic (O.k., when guys post here asking about the best cruises to meet single women....:rolleyes: ) you just ask the moderators to move the thread to the "singles" area. :)

 

Beyond that, MY goal (which I realize you may not all share) would be to have LOTS of straight folks here, at least reading, so that there's a bridge being built, not a wall being put up!

 

Andrew

 

Very well said, Andrew. I think deep down inside, Derf and the others know they are very welcome in THEIR attempt to "build a bridge". I am amazed at how frequently I meet straight people that have NO IDEA that same sex marriage is legal in Canada and other places in the world. They are intrigued to learn some of the issues.

 

The attitude that is blatantly thrown around is perhaps coming from the same people that would go to an FOD meeting or any other gathering... stand in the corner, arms folded...then leave after 30 minutes with the opinion that nobody was friendly.

 

If someone is so uncomfortable in a mixed environment, then perhaps it would benefit them to stick to an all-gay charter. But, I have to wonder if the gay charters exclude heterosexuals?

 

At the same time they need to realize that over the years the gay community is progressively assimilating into society. My experience has told me that this attitude of exclusivity is a generational issue; Its more prevalent in older generations than in the younger generations. If thats the case, its because the older generations grew up in a much more bigoted, unaccepting environment than what younger people, in general, experience today. The irony is that the younger generation benefits from the previous generations efforts.

 

Rather than hang on to the older exclusive values, its time to realize where we are, where we've been and where we are going...and adapt.

 

In all seriousness, its unfortunate that some of these issues "go up in flames" fueled by inuendo and disrespect. Although I avoid it, I guess there are times when I am guilty of that as well. It seems that when people are posting on these boards....straight and gay, they are driven by their veil of anonymity.

 

Its unbelievable to read some of the comments people make. I recently read a thread where a women was attacked for innocently asking what kind of dining room attire is proper for her teenagers on the cruise. I read another where someone was attacked for making comments about internet access rates....the attack was pointing out that if someone cant leave work at home, perhaps they should stay at home. Ive also seen a thread where someone was attacked for using bad grammar and that english was not the OP's first language. (Fortunately the board moderator got involved but I doubt it fixed the emotional impact the OP felt)

 

How does someone justify being mean to someone that is simply trying to gain some knowledge and share information?

 

I doubt most of the inflammatory, disrespectful and negative attacks would EVER come out in FACE to FACE interaction. ..>>jack

[Schplinky]

LOL, I didn't realize the board...or this area of it...had its own sexuality!:D Most inanimate objects I know haven't come out of the closet....

 

O.k., so I live in Gay Mecca, ...

 

Andrew, I live in that other gay mecca (Canada) and even here, inanimate items have no stated sexuality. Maybe we're not doing it right?

[etoile]

I know of some pretty naughty stuffed animals...but virtual objects like a bulletin board are usually not so naughty! :D

[Schplinky]

We mentioned the FOD party to a friend (who happens to be straight) on our last cruise and while she chose not to join us, we let her know that she was very welcomed to. After all, it's rare that we "go off and be gay" in a way that excludes our straight friends, with the possible exception of going to the Broadway show twice on a given cruise. It's a stereotype but I love the showtunes enough to withstand any teasing.

 

Anyhow, I got to wondering why she said no but I have to wonder if it was either that she feared that she might not be made welcome or that she might be hit on. I'm not sure because I never asked her. I was thinking of that when I was reading all these posts and I wonder if the reticence of some people to include straight people in our little gaggle of gays is motivated by something other than needing the protection of our exclusive environment (complete with it's code name). I wonder if some folks just want to make sure that anyone they see at the meeting is "fair game" in terms of romantic advances. A part of me says no, because seom us are partnered, married or dating, but I still sort of wonder what motivates a poster to try to block friendly engagement by the straights.

[Schplinky]

The issue is that some people feel a level of comfort in all-gay environments that we don't feel in mixed environments. This doesn't mean that we don't enjoy being in mixed environments, that we don't deal and thrive in the "real world", that we'd interrogate or chase out straight people who come to FOD meetings, or that we're going to do stuff like this:

 

 

 

I sense this is turning into a rehash of that "can I go on an Olivia cruise" thread that ended so badly.

 

I will add that I've never been on a mainstream cruise with FOD meetings. My most recent two cruises were with Pied Piper, which made FODs unnecessary as all the unconnected gay people found us. On my first cruise, I was in college and with my parents so I wasn't going to be in that frame of mind anyway, and on my second cruise, there was no FOD meeting and we found the other gay couple on the ship on our own. So, whereas my sense of a FOD meeting is for people to hang out and socialize, I may be in a different frame of mind from people who've used them to identify gays they wouldn't have met otherwise.

 

Honestly, in mixed company that I've just met, I feel awkward putting my arm around my partner when we're on a couch and kissing him on the cheek. Psychoanalyze that all you want, but it's how I react and it's a common issue. I think there's room for a discussion of how much comfort I should expect as one passenger on a cruise that is predominantly straight people.

 

Is this an issue that can be discussed constructively, or is this thread going to go up in flames? I hope it's the former.

 

I think that, by and large, it is being discussed contructively but I hope you don't think that is the same things as everyone agreeing with you.

 

Since FOD parties are rarely held in strictly private places, my guess is that anyone fearful of showing affection with their partner except in an exclusively gay environment would enjoy the FOD experience any more or less because there are staight-identified people in the room. These parties are often held in the martini bar or wherever and the venue is seldom closed to other guests.

 

An interesting post-script to the Olivia thread you mention (which was an innocent question on my part that turned into a tempest in a teapot and convinced us that we likely wouldn't have a very good time if we chose to go). I emailed Customer Service at Olivia and asked if men were welcomed or excluded or what their policy was. I was never given the courtesy of a response but I have got three flyers in the mail so far. Talk about a mixed message.

[Schplinky]

I know of some pretty naughty stuffed animals...but virtual objects like a bulletin board are usually not so naughty! :D

 

Meredith, you make me smile!

 

I wa sin DC over Christmas. What AMAZING weather you have.

[02143]

I still sort of wonder what motivates a poster to try to block friendly engagement by the straights.

 

Sure. It's not that I'm looking for someone to date, because I'm married as well. The issue is that I socialize differently in all-gay environments than I do when I'm around straight people. I'm less guarded and more relaxed. I can still have a good time in mixed environments, it's just different.

 

But I do find it very awkward to be interacting with straight women in gay environments. (The fact that straight men either avoid those environments or appear utterly cowed or very confident means they're not as much of an issue.) Not only am I sensitive to how I'm behaving and how other men are behaving, whether people are being vulgar or rude or not (as we often can be), but I feel that some women who get along well with gay men do so with a particular kind of gay man who is very outgoing, witty, clever, and "on" all the time. My partner's like that, but I'm not. So there's a sense that not only do I have to watch what I say and do, but I also have to perform a bit, and at that point I'd just as soon go to another bar than deal with it. I'm an introvert and it exhausts and bores me to do that.

 

Am I proud of this? No. I'd like to be relaxed and comfortable around everyone. But I've noticed I tense up a lot when some of our friends have brought their straight girl friends out with us, and I'd just as soon not socialize that way.

 

Does it make sense to you that I should find a FOD party alienating while straight people come in and have a great time dancing to ABBA and talking about Charlize Theron? What purpose does that serve? At that point, what we have is a miniature environment identical to the ship as a whole. And we have the whole rest of the ship and the rest of the week for that! Hence my advice in my first post.

[Schplinky]

Sure. It's not that I'm looking for someone to date, because I'm married as well. The issue is that I socialize differently in all-gay environments than I do when I'm around straight people. I'm less guarded and more relaxed. I can still have a good time in mixed environments, it's just different.

 

But I do find it very awkward to be interacting with straight women in gay environments. (The fact that straight men either avoid those environments or appear utterly cowed or very confident means they're not as much of an issue.) Not only am I sensitive to how I'm behaving and how other men are behaving, whether people are being vulgar or rude or not (as we often can be), but I feel that some women who get along well with gay men do so with a particular kind of gay man who is very outgoing, witty, clever, and "on" all the time. My partner's like that, but I'm not. So there's a sense that not only do I have to watch what I say and do, but I also have to perform a bit, and at that point I'd just as soon go to another bar than deal with it. I'm an introvert and it exhausts and bores me to do that.

 

Am I proud of this? No. I'd like to be relaxed and comfortable around everyone. But I've noticed I tense up a lot when some of our friends have brought their straight girl friends out with us, and I'd just as soon not socialize that way.

 

Does it make sense to you that I should find a FOD party alienating while straight people come in and have a great time dancing to ABBA and talking about Charlize Theron? What purpose does that serve? At that point, what we have is a miniature environment identical to the ship as a whole. And we have the whole rest of the ship and the rest of the week for that! Hence my advice in my first post.

 

I get your point and appreciate the way you've explained it. While I disagree with you (as I did on the Olivia thread you mention) I certainly understand you better now.

 

Off topic: we attended a lesbian wedding near you last spring in Medford (I think). We had a great time and it was a nice area to visit.

[flag fan]

JGarland -- Why do I have the feeling you are not really sorry if you have offended? (Being offensive is is the point of using derogatory terms like "Breeder" and "Fag Tag", isn't it.) Well, for the record, I (a gay man) was offended.

[pnhmrk]

LOL, I didn't realize the board...or this area of it...had its own sexuality!:D

 

Andrew - I would think that one could say that this was the "gay" area of CC; that would mean that the board did have a sexuality. I don't mean that this forum is attracted to other similar forums (forum-sexual?:D ) just that this is a place where most of the posters do not classify as 100% heterosexual.

[derf5585]

most of the posters do not classify as 100% heterosexual.

 

Researcher blurs line between gay, straight

from

http://prince-web1.princeton.edu/archives/2006/03/14/news/14855.shtml

 

Sexuality runs on a continuum from homosexuality to heterosexuality, with many stops inbetween

from

http://psychcentral.com/news/2006/09/19/gay-straight-or-modern-sexuality-goes-beyond-traditional-labels/

[JGarland]

Okay! I'm not sorry. These words (Breeder and Fag Tag) best describe them in the most direct manner. They certainly are not as offensive as "Homo", "F****t", "Sissy", "Queer" etc., which we all have experienced.

 

Naturally there are "Breeders" out there who are accepting but they're in the minority. If the majority had their way, you can imagine what the outcome would be (think Germany circa 1935).

 

Sorry if you (a Gay) were offended. This is a Gay board and we are talking about how we feel about "Straights" attending FOD meetings. Let's simply call the meetings "Friends of Gays" rather than "Friends of Dorothy" (and we Gays know what FOD signifies) and invite everyone.

[derf5585]

call the meetings "Friends of Gays" rather than "Friends of Dorothy" (and we Gays know what FOD signifies) and invite everyone.

 

How about "Friends of gays and lesbians". Well I am a friend of gays and lesbians . Some of my best friends are either "gays or lesbians" not "gays and lesbians"

I believe "gays and lesbians" should not be able to get married but "gays or lesbians" can. (I'm just playing around with words here)

 

Next thought, It seems as if there are more gays posting than lesbians on the "Gay and Lesbian" boards. On the other boards it seen more woman post then men.

Any thoughts?

[JGarland]

Point Missed! TTFN

[derf5585]

Point Missed! TTFN

 

What does TTFN stand for?

Ta Ta For Now

from

http://www.acronymfinder.com/acronym.aspx?rec={955CAF1A-89E8-11D4-8351-00C04FC2C2BF}

[JGarland]

Okay. . . now I know with whom I'm dealing. Sorry, you all - I didn't realize! ;)

[etoile]

(double)

[etoile]

Okay. . . now I know with whom I'm dealing. Sorry, you all - I didn't realize! ;)

And who exactly are you dealing with? Who do you think we are? :cool: