As You Wish Dining - Opinions, Comments and Discussions

[NHBob]

[quote name='Dena'][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]It [/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Times New Roman]How anyone could argue that more choices are a bad thing for women is mind-boggling. :confused: But then again, there are those who would deny us the simple freedom of choosing when and where to dine.:( [/FONT][/quote]

I had pretty much stopped posting on this thread because the same things are now being said over and over, but had to respond to this.

Dena, just who are those who would deny you the simple freedom of choosing when and where to dine? The original concern in this thread was not that dining choices were being offered, but that HAL would make sufficient dining room space available to accommodate both traditional and open seating dining. [B]To date HAL has not provided any such assurance, as far as I know.[/B]

To the contrary, if you will take the trouble to check various sailings on HAL's website you will find many instances where only open seating is shown as available, everything else wait listed. Furthermore, clicking on the "wait listed" items yields a notice to the effect that only requests are being taken at this time, and table assignments will be provided on board ths ship.

As RuthC stated so concisely early in this thread, that is not As You Wish Dining.

Dena, I couldn't care less where and when you eat, but I do care about my dining room assignments. In my particular case, it took a letter to HAL senior management to get confirmation of traditional dining for my next cruise - this shouldn't be necessary and I certainly will book another HAL cruise only when they are able and willing to commit to my preferred type of dining at time of booking.

[terrydtx]

[quote name='NHBob']
Dena, just who are those who would deny you the simple freedom of choosing when and where to dine? The original concern in this thread was not that dining choices were being offered, but that HAL would make sufficient dining room space available to accommodate both traditional and open seating dining. [B]To date HAL has not provided any such assurance, as far as I know.[/B]

To the contrary, if you will take the trouble to check various sailings on HAL's website you will find many instances where only open seating is shown as available, everything else wait listed. Furthermore, clicking on the "wait listed" items yields a notice to the effect that only requests are being taken at this time, and table assignments will be provided on board ths ship.

As RuthC stated so concisely early in this thread, that is not As You Wish Dining.

Dena, I couldn't care less where and when you eat, but I do care about my dining room assignments. In my particular case, it took a letter to HAL senior management to get confirmation of traditional dining for my next cruise - this shouldn't be necessary and I certainly will book another HAL cruise only when they are able and willing to commit to my preferred type of dining at time of booking.[/QUOTE]

Just the fact that you are opposed to the changes in AYWD as announced by HAL proves that you do not want the choice to those of us who are in favor of the change. Bob you and Ruth would be very happy if HAL DROPPED THE AYWD option which in fact means you are opposed to the choice of the two options. I believe that your postings in this forum prove that point.

[NHBob]

[quote name='terrydtx'] [B]Bob you and Ruth would be very happy if HAL DROPPED THE AYWD option which in fact means you are opposed to the choice of the two options[/B]. I believe that your postings in this forum prove that point.[/quote]

And I said or even implied this where? This is the most convoluted reasoning I have seen in a long time!

Bob

[cruz chic]

[quote name='NHBob']And we said or even implied this where? This is the most convoluted reasoning I have seen in a long time!

Bob[/quote]

You are correct Bob.....I don't recall anyone who wants traditional saying they want AYW dining gone. It seems more like the people who want the AYW dining don't want the traditional to carry on and are always trying to get people to convert to this by calling them old and afraid of change.

[terrydtx]

[quote name='NHBob']And we said or even implied this where? This is the most convoluted reasoning I have seen in a long time!

Bob[/QUOTE]

Let me prove it now. [COLOR="Blue"][B][SIZE="4"]If the ONLY way to guarantee that you could have a traditional seating on any cruise when and where you want it was for HAL to drop the AYWD option, would you support dropping AYWD?[/SIZE][/B][/COLOR] Be truthful in your answer, because I believe you have been against the change to AYWD from the very beginning, as you have the unproved notion that you will not have the ability to have a traditional dining seating on any future cruise.

[Dena]

[quote name='terrydtx']Just the fact that you are opposed to the changes in AYWD as announced by HAL proves that you do not want the choice to those of us who are in favor of the change.[/quote]

Terry, this is my interpretation as well.

Earlier I posted an easy and fair solution and I think the solos should strongly encourage HAL to implement it. It is my understanding that solo travelers pay a "single supplement." Anyone paying a single supplement should be given the dining option of his choice. Period. HAL could make this happen.

For years Princess has operated both Anytime and fixed seating, so HAL should be able to do so as well. It is unlikely that HAL will get rid of fixed seating before Princess does. So, since fixed seating does exist, why not
confirm it for the solo travelers? This waitlist stuff is nonsense so far in advance of the cruise.

[cruz chic]

[quote name='Dena']Terry, this is my interpretation as well.

Earlier I posted an easy and fair solution and I think the solos should strongly encourage HAL to implement it. It is my understanding that solo travelers pay a "single supplement." Anyone paying a single supplement should be given the dining option of his choice. Period. HAL could make this happen.

For years Princess has operated both Anytime and fixed seating, so HAL should be able to do so as well. It is unlikely that HAL will get rid of fixed seating before Princess does. So, since fixed seating does exist, why not
confirm it for the solo travelers? This waitlist stuff is nonsense so far in advance of the cruise.[/quote]

I love your idea about singles getting their choice in dining because we pay the single supplement. There can't be that many of us but maybe I'm dreaming. Hello HAL are you listening! I bet their answer would be that many people would book single supp just to get their choice. I doubt that.

Someone had suggested that if we meet a group we click with just ask if I could join them for the week. IMO this is so needy. I think I'm a pretty outgoing person but I don't want to put people on the spot like that.

I've heard Princess is eliminating early traditional dining although I don't know if this is true. I hope this isn't the case as I may go back to Princess if I can't get my choice with hal. Booking well over a year in advance to get traditional early dining really sucks.

[sevigny]

Sorry, but to us this is really AYDWD - as you don't wish dining! We are booked on the Prinsendam in July, 2008 for a 21 day cruise. Yes, a table for two for us at main dining is important. We sent in a request for a certain table # to the Prinsendam co-ordinator, and were told that the table is in the AYDWD area, so no luck. Asked if we could reserve this table the entire cruise at 8:00 - no luck. Asked if we could request a table in the bigger area, which at this moment is still tradtitional, even though we really don't want to eat in that area - were told that they could take a request, but no requests would be confirmed until actually on the ship. Why? Because they already had so many table requests! What does this really say? Most people already booked want traditional dining at an assigned table! I would hate to be the dining room manager on this ship! Why must HAL feel that even the Prinsendam on longer cruises must go the way of AYDWD? We have cruised 20 times with HAL, but this will probably be the last one. I am tired of feeling that HAL only wants to really please the new younger cruisers. If they want AYWD, then fine, give it to them on the Vista ships. These ships are set up much better for it - as for me, I forsee a nightmare on Prinsendam every night. The last thing I want to think of every morning is calling and making a reservation for a table in the DR. Why does HAL have to be everything to everybody?
Just my two cents.

[HeatherInFlorida]

[COLOR=navy]It does seem that many people seem to think that a difference of opinion is a "flame". When we're insulted as a group (which we felt we were) we post that we disagree with the characterization. And to repeat the same characterization even after people were upset, just makes no sense at all to me.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=navy][/COLOR]
[COLOR=navy]It also occurs to me that solo cruisers may not necessarily want to be seated at an all singles table. I could be wrong, but I feel sure that Greg as well as others also enjoy the companionship of couples who also like to dine with the same people every night. This is not going to be easily found with people who have chosen to dine as they wish just by the definition of "as you wish".[/COLOR]
[COLOR=navy][/COLOR]
[COLOR=navy]NHBob, thank you for pointing out what just doesn't seem to be hitting its mark (witness the posts following yours) which is that [B]no one is asking anyone to give up choice[/B]. We are asking that our choice be confirmed when we book. It seems to me that what the people who prefer AYW really, truly want is the destruction of "choice" and the incorporation of "as they wish" exclusively. Or so it would seem[IMG]http://cdn-cf.aol.com/se/smi/2b0000026a/11[/IMG][/COLOR]
[COLOR=navy][/COLOR]
[COLOR=navy]And I would turn Terry's question back on him ........... [B][SIZE=3]If the ONLY way to guarantee that you could have a AYWD seating on any cruise when and where you want it was for HAL to drop the Traditional option, would you support dropping Traditional?[/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]
[B][SIZE=3][COLOR=navy][/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]
[COLOR=navy]The question makes no sense when we have all said ad nauseum that [B]we are fine with choice[/B]. And if HAL is unable to guarantee our choice it means that AYW is not as popular as you would like it to be. If it were, [B]there should be plenty of room in Traditional for all of us who want it.[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=navy][/COLOR]
[COLOR=navy]And this isn't only about singles!!! Many of us, and I do mean many, prefer Traditional dining. We like company who we get to know over a long period. We don't enjoy fly by night meetings with new people every night where you never get into any conversations much beyond [I]"where do you live, do you cruise often and what do you do?". [/I][/COLOR]
[COLOR=navy][/COLOR]
[COLOR=navy]Personally, I believe this will all sort out in the end. I think HAL will get a handle on it and in time be able to confirm everyone's dining of choice. But at start-up there are going to be some people who are unhappy. It won't be me[IMG]http://cdn-cf.aol.com/se/smi/2b0000026a/11[/IMG] because I won't cruise HAL until it is sorted out. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=navy][/COLOR]
[COLOR=navy]Sevigny, a perfect example of the mess this is at this point. Of all the ships in the HAL fleet, it's insane that they're instituting AYW in the Prinsendam dining room.[/COLOR]

[Opinions]

[quote name='revneal'] Chances are, with AYW being what it is, we will be seated with a group of people ... 4 or 6 people who know each other, are taking this cruise with each other, and who may not be particularly welcoming to the "odd-people" that we solos can tend to be.

[/QUOTE]

Why do you assume that you would be seated with AYW people who are not "particularly welcoming"...4 or 6 people who want to sit alone would request a table for 4 or 6...I have cruised 3 different lines with anytime dining and it's been my experience they are just as friendly as traditional diners...In fact many are even willing to sit with different people each night!..Even solos.

[hammybee]

Being waitlisted early on has been happening with increased frequency, especially in early seating, over the past 2 years, well [U]before[/U] the introduction of AYWD.

I really believe the reason for waitlisting has nothing to do with AYW and all to do with HAL maintaining the flexibility to accommodate potential group bookings. It is impossible for all sailings to be more than half booked 8+ months into the future and of those bookings, all booked passengers want and got fixed seating, to the extent that those subsequent, get waitlisted.

It is also possible ( I am clearly speculating here) that all waitlisted passengers are not equal. Clients of top producing travel agencies and cabin price [U]may[/U] also be factors in determining dining assignments. I mean does it make business sense to grant equal priority to those who are paying say, $70 per person per day the same as a passenger paying $350 per day? And I say this as someone who more often than not, sails in the cheap seats.

Regardless of cause, the end result is however, the same - uncertainty for some diners.

[Opinions]

[quote name='HeatherInFlorida'][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy]COLOR]
[B][SIZE=3][COLOR=navy][/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]
[COLOR=navy] And if HAL is unable to guarantee our choice it means that AYW is not as popular as you would like it to be. If it were, [B]there should be plenty of room in Traditional for all of us who want it.[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=navy][/COLOR]
[/QUOTE]

Regardless of how popular AYW is it's taking seats away from traditional diners...It certainly seems to be attracting interest from those who haven't cruised HAL bcause of the lack of AYW dining...Logic would say that if AWD is popular there will be less room for traditional diners.

[hammybee]

[quote name='Opinions']Why do you assume that you would be seated with AYW people who are not "particularly welcoming"...4 or 6 people who want to sit alone would request a table for 4 or 6...I have cruised 3 different lines with anytime dining and it's been my experience they are just as friendly as traditional diners...In fact many are even willing to sit with different people each night!..Even solos.[/quote]

I am neutral on the topic of dining and do not have strong preferences about when, where or with whom we dine. We tried AYW, because I tend to embrace change and wanted to experience it for myself rather than rely upon speculation.

You are absolutely on target in terms of how accommodating people were on my cruise. Those who prefered to dine alone did, although most continued to welcome others at their table. We met so many people who booked the Noordam over other cruise lines and ships, specifically because it had AYW dining. I had no idea so many felt so strongly in favor of the concept of not being regimented to a fixed dining time. Who knew?

[terrydtx]

[quote name='HeatherInFlorida'][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy]NHBob, thank you for pointing out what just doesn't seem to be hitting its mark (witness the posts following yours) which is that [B]no one is asking anyone to give up choice[/B]. We are asking that our choice be confirmed when we book. It seems to me that what the people who prefer AYW really, truly want is the destruction of "choice" and the incorporation of "as they wish" exclusively. Or so it would seem[IMG]http://cdn-cf.aol.com/se/smi/2b0000026a/11[/IMG][/COLOR]
[COLOR=navy][/COLOR]
[COLOR=navy]And I would turn Terry's question back on him ........... [B][SIZE=3]If the ONLY way to guarantee that you could have a AYWD seating on any cruise when and where you want it was for HAL to drop the Traditional option, would you support dropping Traditional?[/SIZE][/B]][/QUOTE]
This question is moot because anybody who wants open dining can have it as their choice. I have yet to see any posting from anyone, who has been on the Noordam this summer, complain that they did not get traditional dining once they were on their cruise. So again I say all of you complainers about HAL's decision to add AYWD as an option will only be 100% happy if they drop the option. You can say all you want about being for both but the reality is you don’t want the change if it might mean you have to wait until you board your cruise to get confirmed for a traditional seating. This is no different than wanting an early seating and having to take the late seating because that was all that was available at the time you booked, which has happened to me more than once.

[hammybee]

[quote name='terrydtx'] I have yet to see any posting from anyone, who has been on the Noordam this summer, complain that they did not get traditional dining once they were on their cruise. [/quote]

I agree with you.

I am however, aware of one report from someone who booked the Noordam specifically for AYW dining and had to accept fixed seating. This happened because there was a 500+ group onboard who got the lower level dining room for their dinner.

At least two frequent posters on this board were on that cruise and did not take any notice of the large group and were accommodated in their preferred fixed dining venue.

[SharonN]

[quote name='terrydtx'] This is no different than wanting an early seating and having to take the late seating because that was all that was available at the time you booked, which has happened to me more than once.[/quote]

It's totally different. Not being able to get the exact traditional dining time I want is not the same as not being able to get traditional dining at all. You're talking about different experiences altogether. When I booked my next cruise I was waitlisted for the 8:00 seating but knew the "worst" case was I'd get the 8:30 (or one of the earlier seatings) which would be no big deal to me. I've eaten at all the different times so though I prefer the 8:00 the others work for me too. However, since they announced that AYW would start on my cruise after I booked now I don't even know that I'll get traditional seating.

I honestly don't have any problem with them offering both types of dining as long as I have a choice when I book (assuming I'm not booking at the last minute) so I can decide if I want to continue with the booking or not. I do understand why some people want the AYW especially if they are traveling with friends or family and planning to just eat with them anyway. However, that choice is no longer available to me for most cruises. Does that mean I should be stuck staying home for the rest of my life because I lost my husband at a fairly early age? Most of you can't possibly understand how difficult it is to make the decision to book a cruise as a solo (and I hope you don't have to find out) and not being able to know you're going to have the dining option you want makes that even more difficult. Knowing that you're going to have a set group of people to share meals with can make all the difference.

[HeatherInFlorida]

[quote name='hammybee']I am neutral on the topic of dining and do not have strong preferences about when, where or with whom we dine. We tried AYW, because I tend to embrace change and wanted to experience it for myself rather than rely upon speculation........[/quote]

Hammybee, since I know you really are openminded about your dining, could I ask when you're going on your cruise? Because yours is one opinion I'm really looking forward to reading about and I want to keep my eyes open at the right time. Thanks:) .

[quote name='terrydtx']This question is moot because anybody who wants open dining can have it as their choice. ......................... So again I say all of you complainers about HAL's decision to add AYWD as an option will only be 100% happy if they drop the option. You can say all you want about being for both but the reality is you don’t want the change if it might mean you have to wait until you board your cruise to get confirmed for a traditional seating. ................[/quote]

Okay, Terry, to the first part of your point ... obviously not true.

And to the second, also not true. Why do you insist on consistently saying this when several people have told you it's just not so!!! Are you calling us liars? If so, it's really insulting.

However, speaking only for myself, if we cannot be confirmed in Traditional dining prior to my final payment, I will cancel the cruise unless I'm with a group who have planned in advance to dine together. It's not that I'm stubborn, we just know what we want. I will support choice because I think it's fair all things considered. And I won't whine or complain or moan ... I'll just book with another cruise line. To be safe, I won't be booking HAL for at least a year to see how it goes. But that's just me .... my choice:D which is a "good thing".

As for people who parade their credentials on CC, I take it with a grain of salt. I could tell you I'm Queen Latifah and who would be the wiser? Heck, I could be Britney Spears or Bill Gates. You'd really never know. Don't let my little dog fool you;) .

[Old As Dirt Mom]

Hammybee has experienced AYW Dining, on the Noordam, in May. [URL="http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=10669357&postcount=11"]Here is one of her original posts on the subject.[/URL]

[hammybee]

[quote name='HeatherInFlorida']Hammybee, since I know you really are openminded about your dining, could I ask when you're going on your cruise? Because yours is one opinion I'm really looking forward to reading about and I want to keep my eyes open at the right time. Thanks:) . /quote]

Heather, we were on the Noordam this past May and chose AYWD. I will be on the Oosterdam in February and if I can squeeze one more cruise in between now and then, I will.

I have reported on my own experience with AYW many,many times.

[hammybee]

Here is an extract of a report from Lisa (laffinvegas) while onboard the Noordam, yesterday:

[COLOR=darkslateblue]Some interesting things I will tell about later but this week the demand of Dine As You Wish was so much that half the Upper level had to be used for it as well. The Early Dining has about 15 totally empty tables, very interesting. I guess next week the Fix Dining will be more requested and they will accommodate that, as well.

Signing off from the Beautiful MS Noordam:)[/COLOR]

All reports are showing that HAL is accommodating everyone, Fixed versus Open Dining. We have heard nothing to the contrary. Perhaps it better to worry about the weather, instead of dining arrangements.

[xpcdoojk]

Hopefully, Hammybee, it will work out for all. I am skeptical, but then I always am!:D ;)

jc

[HeatherInFlorida]

[quote name='hammybee']..................
Heather, we were on the Noordam this past May and chose AYWD. I will be on the Oosterdam in February and if I can squeeze one more cruise in between now and then, I will.

I have reported on my own experience with AYW many,many times.[/quote]

I have read your past experiences many, many times and I was more interested in the result as time moves on. You experienced it in early stages in transitioning forms and I'm far more interested in how it works over the next year. I'm cruising myself in November, but fortunately we'll still have Traditional on our sailing.

Dena, your exact words which I personally found condescending were:

[quote]I would not have earned a Ph.D. in engineering and would not be enjoying this financially rewarding and intellectually satisfying career of my choosing that matches my interests and abilities.
[/quote]

For the sake of brevity I haven't copied all your posts on the subject, but the indication was clear that anyone coming from my time (which I had defined clearly in my post) could not possibly have enjoyed a financially rewarding profession such as you have experienced.

All of this as it relates to choice. I contend we've had choice going back several decades and I continue to fully support it whether it be in our choice of professions, choice of dining venue, or choice of cruise lines.

With rare exception, no one on this thread professes to be an expert on the subject since the entire concept is new to HAL. It's just a tossing around of ideas which seems abhorrent for some reason to some people simply because we do not agree.

[RevNeal]

There is NO REASON why it has to be either/or. Bob, Ruth, Heather, SharonN, myself, etc., ... our desire is a simple one. We HAL to [I]confirm[/I] that we will be able to Dine "As We Wish," with Traditional, not Open, Seating. Our desire for HAL to confirm this does [B][I][U]NOT[/U][/I][/B] equate to a desire for AYWD to be dropped -- nor does it entail a pitting of one Dining System against the other. It is simply a REASONABLE expectation that we should be able to be confirmed in the KIND of dining we wish. [B][I][U]PERIOD[/U][/I][/B]. And, it is neither logical nor charitable for anyone to conclude, and assign to those of us who desire such confirmation, that we want there to be no such option for others. So, people, [B]please stop building Straw Men and assigning others to them ... that Tender won't float here.[/B]

Reports, like Hammy's and Lisa's, gives us some hope that things will "work out" aboard ship. However, too many of us have had the experience of things NOT working out aboard ship when it comes to things like ship's services arrangements, group dining arrangements, onboard credit assignments, and Early/Main dining assignments ... we know that things don't always work out, and once one is aboard ship it really is TOO LATE to fix things. So, we would like a confirmation -- not necessarily that we'll have Early or Main but that we'll at least have Traditional. Once the transition into fleet-wide operation has been accomplished, and once the dining staff know how to arrange things so that the system operates smoothing from cruise to cruise, it may be that HAL will have built a database of average percentages and will be able to stop waitlisting 90% of all those who want Traditional and give reasonable confirmation levels. I can try to be hopeful in that direction, and until then bite my nails until I get aboard and find out if I'm going to get my wish, or am I going to have to scramble to try and arrange dinner every night.

[Dena]

[quote name='HeatherInFlorida']For the sake of brevity I haven't copied all your posts on the subject, but the indication was clear that anyone coming from my time (which I had defined clearly in my post) could not possibly have enjoyed a financially rewarding profession such as you have experienced.
.[/quote]

Now Heather, I thought I wrote this very carefully. If women did find financially rewarding and intellectually stimulating careers in the "good old days" it was generally within a fairly narrow range of professions. Women with a strong interest in science and mathematics may have been able to work in such fields in some capacity, but not with the level of recognition, educational attainment, and finacial reward as men with similar interests and abilities. Were there exceptions? Sure. And I, for one, appreciate those trailblazers.

If you were able to match your interests and abilities with a financially rewarding and intellectually stimulating career, you were lucky. And while the "good old days" may have represented the best time in your personal history - it did not represent the best time in history for women in general. To suggest otherwise is absurd. And personally offensive. Nearly as offensive as saying we should be made to wear heels to work.

[RevNeal]

[quote name='Opinions']Why do you assume that you would be seated with AYW people who are not "particularly welcoming"...4 or 6 people who want to sit alone would request a table for 4 or 6.[/QUOTE]

Yes, indeed ... but there are only so many 4 and 6 tops. For the odd single person, looking for a place to dine, it may well be that the staff will be forced to seat us at 8 tops with 6 or 7 people ... people who, otherwise, would be eating as a family or group. They will be asked "do you mind if we seat this gentleman/lady with you this evening?" and the table, faced with the person standing there, will be polite and say "oh, certainly." But, in many cases, the single person will simply be an outsider, not party to most of the conversation and not really included precisely because they are outsiders. I'm sure such is not always the case, nor even frequently the case, however it may well be the case on enough occasions as to make AYWD a game of "russian roulette" for solo travelers.

[quote name='Opinions']...I have cruised 3 different lines with anytime dining and it's been my experience they are just as friendly as traditional diners...In fact many are even willing to sit with different people each night!..Even solos.[/QUOTE]

That's great, and I'm sure such is the case, and I'm sure that the day will come when I will discover it for myself. However, the only thing I have to compare AYWD with is lunchtime in the main dining room on HAL ... which is open seating. I've done this solo [I]many[/I] times, and in all but a remarkably few instances the experience has been quite a bit less than enjoyable (so much so that I almost never dine solo for lunch in the main dining room unless I'm with a group). At each meal the conversation is perfunctory, at best, and my lunch companions are quick to eat and run. When seated at a table where 3 or 4 or more people know each other but I don't know them, I am made to feel like an outsider. Conversation goes on around me, but I'm not included -- nor can I easily be, for I don't share their experiences, I don't know them or where they're from, and there's no reason for them to include me because this is just a single meal. Open Seating for Lunch in the Main Dining Room on HAL is the ONLY thing that I can compare AYWD with ... and, thus far, it doesn't give me a good expectation.

I hope I'm entirely wrong.