working contract

[DougYWG]

My husband and I have just returned from our first HAL cruise on the Oosterdam. We have cruised with Princess, Celebrity and RCL, we were very impressed with HAL and will most certainly cruise with them again.

 

One thing that bothered us was, when talking to various staff members they told us they have to sign working contracts for 12 months and get 1 month sometimes 2 months off in between contracts. I am fairly certain (do correct if mistaken) that on other cruise lines the contracts are much shorter 6 - 8 months. We both felt that in this day and age surely HAL could offer better working conditions than 12 months straight. Several of the the staff members we spoke to said that HAL is the only line left that continues to expect its employees to sign these really long contracts. They didn't seem too happy about it - although continued to smile and give great service.

[peaches from georgia]

I can't speak to all the lines, but on one cruise our wine steward told us she was leaving HAL for Celebrity for exactly that reason- the HAL contracts are 12 months which is too long a committment, at least for her and she said many others.

[sail7seas]

Please remember the stewards are members of a union and have union representation for negotiating their contracts.

[jhannah]

The crew members know this up front. It's no surprise once they get onboard the ship. If they don't want a 12-month contract, then they shouldn't sign on. As S7S noted, their union is involved.

 

I do not think it's wise for any employee anywhere to discuss their working conditions, especially in a negative way, with customers/guests. It's taking a cheap shot at their employer, IMO, and is no business of the customer.

[DougYWG]

To be fair, crew members did not volunteer the information and were not complaining. We asked them a question and they answered.

 

DH is perhaps particularly sensitive to this issue. When he was growing up in the fifties his dad was in the merchant marine. In those days, he would be gone for two years then home for three months. He says he was brought up by his mother. The world has changed a lot and it was surprising to discover that people are still doing twelve months. In the end, what's the point? Why would it cost HAL any more to have six month contracts? They only pay people when they work (if they pay them at all). None of us expects to work every day for a year with no time off and we would be more content knowing our serving staff don't either.

[hammybee]

The average annual income in Indosneia is about $800. Stewards and wait staff are guaranteed more than this, each month.

 

If you could be guaranteed of earning more than your annual income each month, you too might be willing to work 7 days a week, especially given no other opportunity to do so, anywhere else.

 

No doubt about it, it's a tough life and perhaps better than the alternative.

 

I think the declining value of the USD is causing morale issues on many cruise lines because they are compensated in USD. In terms of buying powwer back home, the crew earns less and less each payday.

[MercedMike]

Please remember the stewards are members of a union and have union representation for negotiating their contracts.

 

Where did you get that information? I have never heard of them having a union in any way that we understand it in the US.

 

They are, AFAIK, represented by labor contractors in their home countries, and the contractors negotiate the contract with the cruise line. But a union? News to me! I would like to see some documentation.

[chasetf]

The world has changed a lot and it was surprising to discover that people are still doing twelve months. In the end, what's the point? .

In some sense the world hasn't changed... There are lots of jobs where people work overseas for extra-ordinary hours. It is not just the cruise lines.

Why would it cost HAL any more to have six month contracts? They only pay people when they work (if they pay them at all).

Well one thing.... It would cost them two more airplane tickets and other relocation costs flying the replacement in and the completed contractor out.

None of us expects to work every day for a year with no time off and we would be more content knowing our serving staff don't either.

Some jobs still do. That is the expectation in some industries. Many technology companies, especially emerging ones, put that expectation on their employees. Not all jobs are 8-5 M-F. We all have a choice, and at times I have worked similar hours.

[CroozeAddict]

Please remember the stewards are members of a union and have union representation for negotiating their contracts.

 

Excuse me? I may be wrong but I hardly think that's the case. Most of these employees come from third world countries in SE Asia and their annual income is less than what most of us make in a week. They probably have a representative in their home country (who doesn't care) but most have no idea of what a union even is. When they get offered a job like this, they jump at it. It isn't until AFTER they start working that they learn about the policies of other cruise lines. So, they do their time with hopes of being picked up by another line with better working conditions.

 

If I'm not mistaken, HAL is the only line that hires predominately from this geographical area. Is there, maybe, some exploitation going on here? Is this, maybe, part of the reason that we read about sporatic poor service in some recent reviews?

 

Flame away folks.:D

 

Mabuhay

[PRINSENDAM]

Excuse me? I may be wrong but I hardly think that's the case. Most of these employees come from third world countries in SE Asia and their annual income is less than what most of us make in a week. They probably have a representative in their home country (who doesn't care) but most have no idea of what a union even is. When they get offered a job like this, they jump at it. It isn't until AFTER they start working that they learn about the policies of other cruise lines. So, they do their time with hopes of being picked up by another line with better working conditions.

 

If I'm not mistaken, HAL is the only line that hires predominately from this geographical area. Is there, maybe, some exploitation going on here? Is this, maybe, part of the reason that we read about sporatic poor service in some recent reviews?

 

Flame away folks.:D

 

Mabuhay

 

 

 

Actually, before any crewmembers join HAL they have to go through training etc on board the s.s. DJKARTA... Holland America's school in Indonesia. They are completely familiar with what is required of them before they are employed on board. I don't know of any other cruise line that operates it's own training center. Working conditions do vary between cruise lines but not all that much and I would wager that conditions for the Indonesian crew on board are better with HAL than with other cruise lines. Other cruise line do employ Indonesians though no where near the same numbers as HAL does. Remember HAL's catering crew are 100% Indonesian with the exception of the bar staff who are 100% Filippino.

 

As for 12 months trips... yes, they are long but no one is forced to take the job. When I went to sea in 1970 I managed to get home for three months in four years. I earned 27 pounds a month, no overtime and had to pay my own air fare to join the ship! A lot of crewmembers make shorter contracts with other cruise lines... 6 or 8 months... most crew from the Caribbean or Eastern Europe. Asian crews tend to work longer contract. Always has been that way. Exploitation? No way! $10,000 take home salary is movie star wages! If you wanted to pay crewmembers US salary then you would have to fork out $10,000 for a seven day cruise... in an inside cabin.

 

Stephen

[PalmBeachMom]

there may still be some anti-colonial feeling among some Indonesians as to the Dutch, but I don't think you can assume that crew members would rather be working at another cruise line. HAL is almost single-handedly responsible for the uptick in standard of living in Indonesia and I don't know of another cruise line than works as hard as HAL to promote crew to officer jobs in the Hotel Department.

[jhannah]

Thank you, Stephen, for your post. There is no way any crew member could be blindsided by long hours and the length of their contract. I've seen recruiting videos used by Disney Cruise Lines and they are explicit about their expectations and what the cast member can expect with regard to onboard life.

 

PalmBeachMom, based on my limited knowledge and observations, I fully agree with you. HAL trains well and promotes from within.

[our turn]

I am pretty sure our room steward on our recent Westerdam cruise told me he was finishing an 8 month stint. He was very excited to go home because his wife had their baby a few weeks earlier. I commented that that must have been very hard for him. He said it was worth it to him to provide a better life for his family. I believe he said he would be home for 3 months.

[hammybee]

there may still be some anti-colonial feeling among some Indonesians as to the Dutch, but I don't think you can assume that crew members would rather be working at another cruise line. HAL is almost single-handedly responsible for the uptick in standard of living in Indonesia and I don't know of another cruise line than works as hard as HAL to promote crew to officer jobs in the Hotel Department.

 

My guess is that no more than 2/3 of onboard employees are Indonesian meaning about 6000 employees. I hardly think the incomes of 6000 make much difference in the standard of living in a country with a population of about 235 million. I will say however, that the standard of living for these 6000 employees is substantially greater than the average.

 

If there is a single industry that has contributed to Indonesia's painful recovery from the financial crisis of the 90's, it is probably oil. Indonesia is the only Asian member of OPEC.

[cruzerfornow]

there may still be some anti-colonial feeling among some Indonesians as to the Dutch, but I don't think you can assume that crew members would rather be working at another cruise line. HAL is almost single-handedly responsible for the uptick in standard of living in Indonesia and I don't know of another cruise line than works as hard as HAL to promote crew to officer jobs in the Hotel Department.

 

Do you "REALLY" think a company that hires a few thousand people can have that effect on an entire country??? Do their employees support most likely 10 -20 people at home...yes...are they "upticking" the entire countries standard of living..NO...not a chance...google the population of Indonesia, I'm sure you will be quite surprized. It is the largest muslim country in the world population wise!

 

edited...oops, sorry hammybee...I should have read the entire thread prior to replying....one more thing though..."IF" the employee's have union reps it is NOTHING like the unions as we know them...THANK GOD!!!! As someone said if the employees were paid prevailing union wages a 7 day cruise would cost $10,000.....but as others have stated many times the employees are among the top 10% of wage earners in their countries so they are far from being exploited..

[1FatPER]

If you think these workers have it bad (12 month tours, etc.), ask one of our soldiers or marines serving in Iraq.

[RevNeal]

If I'm not mistaken, HAL is the only line that hires predominately from this geographical area. Is there, maybe, some exploitation going on here?

 

HAL hires its service staff predominately from Indonesia and the Philippines precisely because of trade negotiations conducted with the Unions in both countries. Yes, the employees are unionized and yes these matters are negotiated -- and, I'm sure, re-negotiated on a set periodic basis -- to the advantage of all parties involved. This is not exploitation. It is a win-win for all parties.

[hammybee]

As someone said if the employees were paid prevailing union wages a 7 day cruise would cost $10,000.....but as others have stated many times the employees are among the top 10% of wage earners in their countries so they are far from being exploited..

 

So many love to bash NCL N.A. because of their ongoing labor problems, inferior service compared to a foreign-flagged ship and a perception of a lack of work ethic on the part of the service staff.

 

The typical NCL N.A. onboard employee recieves poverty level wages in terms of the U.S. standard of living. This is hardly the same incentive that an Indosnesian worker has to perform. It's comparing apples to well, pineapples.:)

[sail7seas]

But, Hammy....... they, of their free will, take these jobs. Surely they know their rate of pay before accepting the position.

[hammybee]

But, Hammy....... they, of their free will, take these jobs. Surely they know their rate of pay before accepting the position.

 

Of course they do. And I am sure everyone of them believes that they will do substantially better in tips above and beyond the mandatory hotel service charge.

 

What I think they may not fully comprehend is the toll of working for the general public, the hours, the tight living conditions,the group think mentality and that the majority of passengers are not inclined to tip beyond leaving the service charge intact. Unlike their Indonesian counterparts, they have far more alternatives and opportunities for land-based employment once reality sets in.

 

When we sailed with NCL N.A., in Hawaii, we did not find the service inferior to HAL. The ship was clean, our cabin was clean and dinner was served. The service level was not as polished or as sincere as it is on HAL but it worked, especially for such a port intensive experience where minimal time is spent onboard. We were in a simple outside cabin, on one of the older ships, on an intinerary that included Fanning Island.

 

What was different were the passengers and their fears and expecations.

[jhannah]

What I think they may not fully comprehend is the toll of working for the general public, the hours, the tight living conditions...

Sort of like our wonderful firefighters! :cool:

[sungoddess]

Bottom line is: if they don't like the job, they don't have to sign another contract. Working on a ship, in any position, is hard and it's tough to be away from home. However, I will always look back at my years onboard as some of the best I've had. It was such a great experience, I met so many lifelong friends and have been places that none of my friends back home have.

 

Please do not jump in and tell me that being a Hotel Officer is a much different experience than being a Cabin Steward; I realize that. I am just trying to give a little perspective. All crew members have tough days when we are homesick and tired, etc.. But overall, it is a job that a lot of people want, and if you don't like it, don't go back.

[MercedMike]

HAL hires its service staff predominately from Indonesia and the Philippines precisely because of trade negotiations conducted with the Unions in both countries. Yes, the employees are unionized and yes these matters are negotiated -- and, I'm sure, re-negotiated on a set periodic basis -- to the advantage of all parties involved. This is not exploitation. It is a win-win for all parties.

 

Once again I am asking for some documentation of that. In the Phillipines, I might believe that there are unions that are some approximation of what we mean by a union. In Indonesia ... I DON'T THINK SO!

 

I've been wrong before -- show me that I am.

[hammybee]

Sort of like our wonderful firefighters! :cool:

 

In Chicago, a firefighter makes on average, about $65K a year, plus benefits and a very good pension after 25 years of service. They are on duty ( with down time) 24 hours and get 48 hours off.

 

Competition is stiff and new recruits tend to have an AA degree and basic health care training, EMT.

 

I think they, along with Police officers, are not compensated well enough given the physical risks of their jobs.

[Nan-L]

omg ! No one on these boards has worked for high end hotels before!!!

My husband is a food & Bev director, worked for the Ritz and other high end prooperties for over 25 yrs.

We have been married for over 22 and I can count maybe 2 times he was around for holidays. Works on the average of 80 - 90 hrs a week, and salery is NOT that great!

Worked for years in other areas then where we lived, if we saw him 3 days a month it was very lucky! Even when he worked living at home we never saw him. Left at 4:00am home around 10pm

We have talked to many F&B's on ships and it's all the same! Ok the maids go home etc. but the food service mamagers always work long hours and no or few tips, infact the wait staff makes more because of tips...

We tip well while on ships, but do not feel sorry for them.

Lots of american's with 4 yr college degrees work the same long hours and are never home!

This Christmas was the 1st he was off since we have been together, We have Thanksgiving on Friday and ever other holiday is done on another day so we can be together.

I've traveled many times with the kids to be with him.

Next time you are at a high end hotel thank your managers, and a tip will be apprecatied!

He has put together $100,000 weddings and got a thank you and hand shake! When you will hand a doorman $$ with out thinking..Also tip those maids, they make almost nothing and change you beds, clean your room everyday!

Sorry pet pev!