working contract

[RevNeal]

Once again I am asking for some documentation of that. In the Phillipines, I might believe that there are unions that are some approximation of what we mean by a union. In Indonesia ... I DON'T THINK SO!

 

I've been wrong before -- show me that I am.

 

Okay. It wasn't that hard to find references for HAL's trade-agreements with Indonesian Unions on HAL's own website. I just googled "Indonesia" "Unions" and "Holland America Line."

 

http://www.hollandamerica.com/about/shipboard.do

 

Which, along with a lot of other things, states:

 

Due to labor agreements between the ship-owning companies and unions in Holland, Indonesia and the Philippines, most of our crew positions (including the majority of service staff personnel) are limited to members of these unions.

 

And, before you start doubting what HAL puts on their own employment website ... YES, there are Unions in Indonesia. What in the world would make you think that there aren't ... particularly not given the ties and long-standing historical colonial connections between the Netherlands and Indonesia? The US State Department File on Indonesia is very large, but of interest there (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2006/78774.htm) is the following:

 

The vast majority of union members belonged to one of three union confederations: the All-Indonesia Trade Union Confederation (KSPSI), the Indonesian Prosperity Trade Union Confederation (KSBSI), and the Indonesian Trade Union Congress. In addition more than 11,000 workplace-level units were registered with the manpower ministry, a drop from the 18,000 reported in 2005, which were based on unions' self-reported data.

 

The following are just a few of the hits that I found googling about Indonesian Unions. Some of these are news reports, some are Union Newsletters, others are articles by US and Australian and European Labor Interests regarding the state of Indonesian Unions and Labor activists in Indonesia.

 

http://www.ictur.org/TURCNewsletter.pdf

 

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2002/507/27561

 

http://www.amrc.org.hk/Arch/3702.htm

 

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summary_0199-6120538_ITM

 

http://finsec.wordpress.com/2007/06/19/russian-and-indonesian-union-members-need-our-help/

 

http://www.labornotes.org/node/1152

 

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~aawl/archive_files/indonesian_unions_training_project_01.pdf

 

http://steveinindonesia.blogspot.com/

 

In short ... yes, there are Indonesian Trade and Labor Unions, and yes HAL has negotiated with them for contract terms for their employment. In return, those Unions have exclusive rights for positions of employment in various departments aboard HAL ships.

[PalmBeachMom]

Thanks, Rev, for letting your "fingers do the walking" for all of us.

[JimVrhovac]

They do not have to wear 150 lbs of equipment, wear a flank vest, and walk in the desert all day and they do get a hot shower and a bed to sleep in all night.

 

They chose this profession and went into it with their eyes wide open like each of us has done in our chosen careers.

 

If they do not like it do not renew the contract....

 

Ruth & Jim

[MercedMike]

...

In short ... yes, there are Indonesian Trade and Labor Unions, and yes HAL has negotiated with them for contract terms for their employment. In return, those Unions have exclusive rights for positions of employment in various departments aboard HAL ships.

 

Verrrry interesting! Thanks for the documents.

 

Guess if their union OK's the 12 month contracts they must be happy with them.

[pepster2]

Hello All:

We have been on 5 or 6 HAL ships. I have heard different amount of time spent on the ship from different crew members. I always wondered if they have different contract. My girlfriend is from the Philippines. It seems we always end up going on shore outings and becoming friends with many of the crew. She came to the US as a RN. She and her friends had to sign a 3 year contract when doing this. We became friends with one on the bar waiters on one of our cruises. He was on a 12 month contract, said he would go home for 3 or 4 months and then back. He had worked for Carnaval but came to HAl because the tips were beter. I had asked him just how much do they really make working all the hours he does. He told me and I see no reason for him to lie that the year he worked before he made about $50,000 US . I about fell off my seat as I always heard a lot less. He was really good at his job and several times I saw $10 or better tips.My girlfriend knows people back at her home where one or both of them worked on cruise ships. She says they had very nice homes kids went to good private schools. This is a life they could never have if they stayed home. I find it awful they have to leave their kids and be gone from them so long but they do it for their future.

[RevNeal]

Thanks, Rev, for letting your "fingers do the walking" for all of us.

 

We aims to please. :D

You're welcome!

[RevNeal]

Verrrry interesting! Thanks for the documents.

 

Guess if their union OK's the 12 month contracts they must be happy with them.

 

You're very welcome, Mike. And, yes ... I would draw that same conclusion. Different culture, different expectations and standards of living. HAL's recruitment and selection operation in Indonesia is not a minor operation. You might find this interesting ... it's a webpage for one of the graduating classes from the "Ms. Nieuw Jakarta." :)

 

http://clerk012.tripod.com/

 

And here's a page from the Eurodamnews blog about the ms Nieuw Jakarta training school.

 

http://www.eurodamnews.com/2007/10/02/premium-crew-training-for-excellence/

[Northshorecruisers]

I'm sorry to hear that the OP found crew members that were dissatisfied with their job. When we sailed HAL, I talked to many crew members - I was a smoker back then so I spent a lot of time on deck - and everyone told me how happy they were to be with HAL.

Not having been present for the conversation, and knowing that English is not an easy language to learn, I wonder if the crew members were just trying to let the OP know that the employees are very dedicated.

When we took our Princess cruise, my girlfriend did a ceramics class and the whole time there were crew members gathered complaining about their job. She said she shot them a few glances, but they continued. Very unprofessional. It was also very evident in the service from the crew that they were not happy. I expect that James Deering will take care of that.

[Opinions]

There are labor unions and there are company unions...Only some one who belonged to a real union would appreciate the difference.

[dakrewser]

There are labor unions and there are company unions...Only some one who belonged to a real union would appreciate the difference.

 

Yep, and only a doctor who's had cancer can treat it..

 

And only a minister/priest who's been married can do marriage counseling..

 

and only, well, you get the picture.

[RevNeal]

And only a minister/priest who's been married can do marriage counseling.

 

Hey ... I resemble that contradiction! :D ;)

[NYCsurfer]

There are labor unions and there are company unions...Only some one who belonged to a real union would appreciate the difference.

 

Just to clarify things for me.......

 

by "real union" do you mean the type that exist, here in the US at least, only to protect those who don't want to work but still want to collect a good paycheck? Or the one's that pay the union "leaders/officers" more than the upper management in the "company". Or the ones..........

 

 

 

excuse me while I step into my Nomex suit. ;)

 

 

 

 

I have btw belonged to a "real union", hence my distaste for them.

[cruz chic]

Just to clarify things for me.......

 

by "real union" do you mean the type that exist, here in the US at least, only to protect those who don't want to work but still want to collect a good paycheck? Or the one's that pay the union "leaders/officers" more than the upper management in the "company". Or the ones..........

 

 

 

excuse me while I step into my Nomex suit. ;)

 

 

 

 

I have btw belonged to a "real union", hence my distaste for them.

 

Good one!:D

[RevNeal]

Some would say that the Clergy of any Church Diocese, Synod, or Denominational Conference that determines: (1) minimum salaries, (2) health benefits, (3) pensions benefits, (4) vacation benefits, (5) guaranteed appointments, (6) protected advancement from within -- i.e., election to the Episcopacy after x-number of years of service, (7) Housing standards, (8) educational standards, (9) internal discipline, (10) dress code and other personal standards ... all constitute a Union. :)

[Opinions]

Yep, and only a doctor who's had cancer can treat it..

 

And only a minister/priest who's been married can do marriage counseling..

 

and only, well, you get the picture.

 

I get the picture!...I'll have to post my review of that HAL cruise...I wasn't on it but I've read about it.

[DougYWG]

Thank you, reverend sir, I had no idea that the crew had a union of any kind.

 

As the OP I don't want to say that the crew were dissatisfied with their jobs. They were enjoying what they do and service was great. It was when we expressed surprise at the twelve month term that they made a face and agreed. So as far as we know, the only thing that bothered them was the length of contract.

 

Yes, they knew what they were signing up for and yes, they are far better off than staying at home.

 

Still, to be absent from your wife and kidlets for twelve months it is just our opinion that this is excessive and unnecessary. We are not sure that it is related to the cost of flying. We have heard that they have to pay their own way home. Is this true?

[hammybee]

Still, to be absent from your wife and kidlets for twelve months it is just our opinion that this is excessive and unnecessary.

 

Not sure any of us know, with certainty, that a 12 month contract is mandatory and I am not sure it's any of our business.

 

Given the opportunity to earn more in a month than the next guy does in a year, puts things into a different perspective.

 

And as others have said, the men and women in the armed forces have substantially greater time commitments than those employed on cruise ships, are away from their families and may be in harm's way.

 

None of them are forced to do what they do and all deserve our respect.

[DFD1]

Very interesting thread. Thanks, everybody.

[arzz]

To me this thread has been fascinating. I love cruising and I greatly appreciate the dedication and service provided by our HAL crew members -- and I often worry about whether or not these the cruise lines are, at some level, taking advantage of these fine folks who give so much of themselves to make us comfortable and keep us safe.

 

I was particularly struck by that concept a couple of years ago when we were leaving Grand Cayman on one of those days where many ships send their passengers to shore only to experience a sudden change in weather and then have great difficulty bringing them back to the ship. These incredible crew members had bobbed on the tenders for hours in difficult seas trying to get our passenger compliment back to the ship. I know there were some injuries among the passengers, I do not know about the crew. Then, after it was already dark, there they were, crawling around on the tenders as they were hoisted back on board the ship in significant wind and waves. They were truly risking their lives for our comfort.

 

I would like to believe that they are well compensated for this work. What well compensated means varies all over the world. I cannot guess what the meaning of good compensation is in Indonesia or the Phillipines. I have been told by crew members who look wistful when asked about their families, that their work on board is the best way that they have to provide for their families. Many share a goal for what they will do after collecting a few year's earnings. I would like to believe that they do this work completely understanding the sacrifices as well as the perks and have made an informed decision to be on board.

 

I think that folks need to be careful when passing judgement on the unions and agreements made by other folks -- I spent my career as a member of a professional organization (often called a union) that worked hard to guarantee the working conditions and compensation of its members. I was in a career that virtually everyone thinks that they understand and therefore feel competent to criticize. In actual fact those outside the field seldom really understand.

 

I think that in the case of the cruise ships, the fact that the ships have employees who keep coming back year after year speaks for itself. We do not really need to understand their working conditions as long as large numbers of employees keep returning. This speaks for itself.

 

If you start to see the ships unable to complete their staffing needs, if you start to discover that the majority of crew members on board are on their first contracts, or if you start to see the staff mumbling negative things with each other (as I have observed on other lines) then you have cause to worry that something is wrong.

 

On HAL I have always been surprised at the "longevity" of many of the on board crew and been delighted at their dedication and the quality of their work. I have never observed the unhappy mumblings of HAL crew or heard any of them complain.

[sail7seas]

Given the low value of the U.S. Dollar (the currency in which ship's crews are paid), some crew are voluntarily extending their contracts and staying aboard a few weeks to a month or so longer than obliged in order to earn more money. While they definitely need their vacation and we all agree it is more than well earned, some of them wish to remain aboard that little bit longer than required.

 

If any of us choose to tip that little bit additional, it could add up to enough difference they won't have to do that. Perhaps if you were inclined to tip a bit extra, make it a smidge higher??

 

 

 

[hammybee]

Arzz:

 

That was:

 

Beautiful

[PRINSENDAM]

Still, to be absent from your wife and kidlets for twelve months it is just our opinion that this is excessive and unnecessary. We are not sure that it is related to the cost of flying. We have heard that they have to pay their own way home. Is this true?

 

 

Yes, it is true but the compensation paid to crew covers this cost. They did not just suddenly wack the cost of air travel onto the crew.

 

If you decrease the length of tours for the crew then you literally DOUBLE the budget for air travel. That is the reality.

 

If say, you have 600 crew on each of 13 ships and air travel costs say, on average, $3,000 per crew member per year, the bill would be $23.4 million. Decrease the trip length to 6 months and your travel bill would go up to $46.8 million.

 

The crew would say, "Pay us all that extra money and we will work for 12 months!"

 

Stephen

[DougYWG]

Stephen, that I understand.