How long before Hal changes and allows shorts in the dining room ?

[NoNoNanette]

Or vice versa...

 

Vice Versa, Indeed, Dave! :)

 

My sentiments hold true for the poor silly fellows who might wish to pour themselves into a tuxedo for photos. *cringing* ;)

 

IT's "OK" to just enjoy one's cruise if Holland America Line has NO PROBLEM with your attire,

 

I've found that to be REALITY. I simply adore HAL.

 

Can't we all just get along? :rolleyes:

[cruisecrasy]

HI,

 

I am an old fashioned romantic girl (55 years young LOL) who loves to dress up in a pretty dress to look special for my wonderful husband. I also think he looks fabulous in a suit or tux and he wears them to please me as well plus I tell him he looks like my favorite Austin hero, Mr. Darcy (flattery does work!). We always dress for formal night no matter which cruise line and just enjoy the ambience. On casual nights, we dress accordingly.

 

I'm especially amazed at how sloppy some of the women dress for dinner or in the lounges at night...almost like they go out of their way to look slovenly. Women used to be the ones to hold the men to a higher standard of dress and behavior in public.

 

But as others have said, the cruise lines will accept or reject dress and other rules depending on the market they want to attract and money to be made.

 

We love to cruise and save to have a large suite with wrap balcony when possible we can escape from maddening crowds at times. If the dining room casual and formal dress becomes shorts and baseball caps, we can at least dine on our balcony with a nicer view of sea than the dining room will offer.

 

You can't change other people but I can decide whether I want to be around them and choose a cabin or other line accordingly :)

 

and best of all, your last paragraph nicely sums it all up.

 

Enjoyed your post!!

 

Have happy cruisin'!

[pipedreams62]

To all those that have poured themselves into a tuxedo for a picture.

 

Guess what? They at least made an 'Effort"

[bUU]

And the difference between Ruby Tuesday's and Applebee's is...????

The quality of the food.

 

Some people won't be happy until there's a MacDonald's and a Taco Bell in the Lido...;)

Perhaps, but for many people, it isn't about the food, but instead, perhaps, about having extra money for excursions. A lot of people value rock climbing or visiting a Mayan ruin much higher than dining on beef Wellington.

[bUU]

There has to be a way for people to co-exist peacefully allowing everyone to enjoy what they believe to be their ideal cruise experience.

Hmmmm.... on the same ship? I'm not so sure. These ships are big, but I think, sometimes, that what folks are objecting to is the fact that the ship is serving people who have a different idea about what their ideal cruise experience is, i.e., that "N" people getting what they want takes away from how much "T" people enjoy their cruise. Read back this thread and previous threads on the topic and see how often folks say that just being in the same room as those "other" people, as they are, is the "problem".

 

We, as customers need to follow the guidelines published by a cruise line, hotel, air line, etc. When people step outside of the rules thier actions usually have a negative impact on others.

No one here disagrees with that. The whole point of this thread is that the cruise lines are changing their guidelines. Why shouldn't we here in this thread expect customers to respect the guidelines published by the cruise line, meaning that if something is permitted, then it is to be expected, and not looked down-upon.

 

A possible solution....

Call the evening dress formal in the dining room, advise passengers in writing that if they choose not to dress formally they are welcome to dine in the lido, where the same menu will be available in a more casual relaxed atmosphere ...HAL should then enfore their rules by turning people away if they are not dressed properly and steer them towards the lido.

That's not the issue. This bit is off-topic, really.

 

or, if they have enough people wishing casual instead of formal, set aside one of the dining rooms as formal for the evening (I know this gets tricky as people don't always get the dining time and venue they wish)

That's just the tip of the iceberg with problems with this idea, but it is the right approach, I believe.

[momofmeg]

Hmmmm.... on the same ship? I'm not so sure. These ships are big, but I think, sometimes, that what folks are objecting to is the fact that the ship is serving people who have a different idea about what their ideal cruise experience is, i.e., that "N" people getting what they want takes away from how much "T" people enjoy their cruise. Read back this thread and previous threads on the topic and see how often folks say that just being in the same room as those "other" people, as they are, is the "problem".

 

No one here disagrees with that. The whole point of this thread is that the cruise lines are changing their guidelines. Why shouldn't we here in this thread expect customers to respect the guidelines published by the cruise line, meaning that if something is permitted, then it is to be expected, and not looked down-upon.

 

That's not the issue. This bit is off-topic, really.

 

That's just the tip of the iceberg with problems with this idea, but it is the right approach, I believe.

 

So according to your opinion, I want to ask-why crusie HAL? If my cruising experience is not going to be any differant I may as well save my bucks and cruise Carnival.

 

THAT is my gripe. Why can't there be a market for those who want a traditionial cruise experience? I understand "majority rules" and most just do not want this anymore- but I guess I am wondering why Carnival Corporation has all these differant cruiselines when basicially all of them are becoming the same.

 

Surely there is still a market for traditionlists. Why can't travel agents stir their customers to a line that fits what their customers want instead of customers feeling their "rights" are trampled on if they can't cruise any line and dress as they wish?

 

I am not a snob. I just would like to have an atomosphere that I WANT also.

[caviargal]

 

IT's "OK" to just enjoy one's cruise if Holland America Line has NO PROBLEM with your attire,

 

I've found that to be REALITY.

 

:rolleyes:

 

What I find to be reality is that HAL turns the other cheek so as not to anger paying passengers. This is quite different from them having "NO PROBLEM" with attire. They need to sail full so turn the other cheek when people choose to disregard the published dress code.

 

I am going on a HAL sponsored travel agent cruise in a few weeks. My welcome letter specified a dress code and we were told we could not wear jeans or shorts in the evenings (all are casual nights on this cruise) or to any business functions as we are expected to uphold the ambiance of the ship. Fine with me as we always dress for dinner and stay that was for the evening. I wish all passengers were held to the same standard.

[kryos]

THAT is my gripe. Why can't there be a market for those who want a traditionial cruise experience?

I read an interesting article probably close to a year back. It talked about the future of cruising, especially in light of the larger ships that are now being built, up to and including Genesis class that will carry 5,000 people.

 

The article talked about how the whole cruising experience will change with these big ships. Since they hold so many passengers, there is no way to provide a standard cruise experience that will be enjoyed by that many week after week.

 

The author (and I believe he was with CLIA, if I am not mistaken) believes that the cruise experience in the future will be HIGHLY customized. You and I may be on the same boat, but we can have far different cruise experiences. How can this be, you might ask. Well, it's simple.

 

When you buy a cruise, you will buy a "bare bones" experience. Passage on the ship, three meals a day in the "standard" dining room or buffet, basic entertainment (think high school revue), etc., etc. Then there will be all kinds of "add on" options that you can use to customize your cruise experience. Let's say you are a real "foodie" and like only the finest of dining. Well, you can add the elegant dining package, which would include x number of dinners in each of three specialty restaurants, a special reserved section in the main dining room on other nights, free cocktails before dinner at a certain lounge two of the nights, free tux rental for the formal affairs, etc., etc. So, the person who likes to dine in elegant ambience will be able to do that by purchasing this package that will include all sorts of things which will appeal to that sort of person.

 

Let's say another person likes to learn on their cruises. Every cruise will have a couple of general "themes" around which the onboard lectures will be built. Let's say the theme one week is photography. The lecturers will present talks on photography subjects that anyone can attend. But then there will be a series of hands-on classes (kept to smallish groups) that passengers can buy into. Just like the "fine dining" package, these will be priced extra and will include a whole bunch of things that the amatuer photographer would like such as maybe a shore excursion where you go off with a professional photographer to practice your craft. On the same cruise where photography was a theme, there might be two other themes as well ... such as perhaps ballroom dancing and fine wines.

 

The bottom line is that many cruise lines WILL be all things to all people, or at least will try to be. They will do it by customizing the cruise experience for their passengers so that you can have a great cruise and I can also have a great cruise, though we both like different things.

 

Honestly, I think that could be a good thing, don't you?

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[kryos]

The quality of the food.

And which one, may I ask, is the higher quality of food. I would seem to think they are both about equal, or at least are intended to be.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[babyher]

The quality of the food.

 

Perhaps, but for many people, it isn't about the food, but instead, perhaps, about having extra money for excursions. A lot of people value rock climbing or visiting a Mayan ruin much higher than dining on beef Wellington.

 

 

Very well said :)

 

DW and myself usually cruise with several other couples. We have been best friends for eons and are closer to eachother then we are with some of our family.One thing we all have in common is we love being on a ship out at sea.

 

After that we are all over the map.

 

One couple loves nothing more than hitting a beautiful beach and roasting all day (we call them Mr. & Mrs. George Hamilton *LOL*)

 

Another couple loves any excursion that involves the water, swimming with dolphins, sting rays, jetskiing, whatever

 

yet another loves any kind of scenic excursion beacause they are big camera buffs and love to take all kinds of pics.

 

And another will shop til they drop in every store in the port.

 

DW and I will try anythong once and have joined them on all of these

 

For us dinner isn't an "event" its the time of day when all of us are together sharing our day with eachother. What did you see while snorkleing?, What did you buy today?, What was such and such museum or whatever like? What funny thing happened to you?

 

Of course we want the food to be good and have good service and a nice clean ship.

 

But its not about who's dressed fancier , or is the puff pastry on the Beef Wellington as Flakey as it should be, or real teak wood decks, fresh flowers, genuine art on the walls.

 

Its about having a good time and sharing time with people you love.

 

And for the folks that love all the stuff I mentioned above , More power to you, enjoy them and God Bless.

 

Its just not that important to others and that doesn't make them "slobs", or "rebels", or "dumbed down" . They just enjoy a different experience.

[caviargal]

The bottom line is that many cruise lines WILL be all things to all people, or at least will try to be. They will do it by customizing the cruise experience for their passengers so that you can have a great cruise and I can also have a great cruise, though we both like different things.

 

Honestly, I think that could be a good thing, don't you?

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

 

Honestly, no. The idea of sailing on ships this huge has zero appeal and the additional costs to "upgrade" ones experience to what used to be a standard will mean that cruising will not be a good value for those of us who are not happy with mediocre food and service in a chain restaurant atmosphere sitting next to people in jeans and t shirts. Personally, I would much rather go to an upscale resort as these are getting nicer every year and are not so homogenous.

 

I have cruised the big ships and they are too massive, too impersonal, attract too many families, are too loud, too crowded, too internalized (without the motion and the outdoor decks one could be at any mall or convention property) and have all the ambiance of Mall of America.

 

No line can be all things to all people and do it well.

[dakrewser]

Vice Versa, Indeed, Dave! :)

 

My sentiments hold true for the poor silly fellows who might wish to pour themselves into a tuxedo for photos. *cringing* ;)

 

Um, that's not what I meant, dear. I was talking about all those wearing "age inappropriate" attire thinking it makes them "hip" or "cool" or whatever the current teen argot is...

[dakrewser]

The quality of the food.

 

You're joking, right? There's as much difference between Applebee's and Ruby Tuesday's as there is between Jack-in-the-box and Wendy's!

 

Perhaps, but for many people, it isn't about the food, but instead, perhaps, about having extra money for excursions. A lot of people value rock climbing or visiting a Mayan ruin much higher than dining on beef Wellington.

 

Last I looked, there was no extra charge for eating in the dining room - so that argument carries no weight at all. Unless you're saying that those folks should book a cheaper cruise to go to the same ports - on a different cruise line. I'll agree with that.

[dakrewser]

Of course we want the food to be good and have good service and a nice clean ship.

 

But its not about who's dressed fancier , or is the puff pastry on the Beef Wellington as Flakey as it should be, or real teak wood decks, fresh flowers, genuine art on the walls.

 

Its about having a good time and sharing time with people you love.

 

And for the folks that love all the stuff I mentioned above , More power to you, enjoy them and God Bless.

 

And there are plenty of other cruise lines that go to those ports without the "ambience" you say you don't want or need. So please, investigate those and leave to us who desire it those things we can only get on HAL.

 

There's nothing wrong in what you're saying, it's simply different. So investigating a different line, one more in tune with your tastes, seems like a no-brainer.

[Odd Ball]

I read an interesting article probably close to a year back. It talked about the future of cruising, especially in light of the larger ships that are now being built, up to and including Genesis class that will carry 5,000 people.

 

The article talked about how the whole cruising experience will change with these big ships. Since they hold so many passengers, there is no way to provide a standard cruise experience that will be enjoyed by that many week after week.

 

The author (and I believe he was with CLIA, if I am not mistaken) believes that the cruise experience in the future will be HIGHLY customized. You and I may be on the same boat, but we can have far different cruise experiences. How can this be, you might ask. Well, it's simple.

 

When you buy a cruise, you will buy a "bare bones" experience. Passage on the ship, three meals a day in the "standard" dining room or buffet, basic entertainment (think high school revue), etc., etc. Then there will be all kinds of "add on" options that you can use to customize your cruise experience. Let's say you are a real "foodie" and like only the finest of dining. Well, you can add the elegant dining package, which would include x number of dinners in each of three specialty restaurants, a special reserved section in the main dining room on other nights, free cocktails before dinner at a certain lounge two of the nights, free tux rental for the formal affairs, etc., etc. So, the person who likes to dine in elegant ambience will be able to do that by purchasing this package that will include all sorts of things which will appeal to that sort of person.

 

Let's say another person likes to learn on their cruises. Every cruise will have a couple of general "themes" around which the onboard lectures will be built. Let's say the theme one week is photography. The lecturers will present talks on photography subjects that anyone can attend. But then there will be a series of hands-on classes (kept to smallish groups) that passengers can buy into. Just like the "fine dining" package, these will be priced extra and will include a whole bunch of things that the amatuer photographer would like such as maybe a shore excursion where you go off with a professional photographer to practice your craft. On the same cruise where photography was a theme, there might be two other themes as well ... such as perhaps ballroom dancing and fine wines.

 

The bottom line is that many cruise lines WILL be all things to all people, or at least will try to be. They will do it by customizing the cruise experience for their passengers so that you can have a great cruise and I can also have a great cruise, though we both like different things.

 

Honestly, I think that could be a good thing, don't you?

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

 

Very interesting concepts. The cruise industry could very well go in this direction.

[momofmeg]

I read an interesting article probably close to a year back. It talked about the future of cruising, especially in light of the larger ships that are now being built, up to and including Genesis class that will carry 5,000 people.

 

The article talked about how the whole cruising experience will change with these big ships. Since they hold so many passengers, there is no way to provide a standard cruise experience that will be enjoyed by that many week after week.

 

The author (and I believe he was with CLIA, if I am not mistaken) believes that the cruise experience in the future will be HIGHLY customized. You and I may be on the same boat, but we can have far different cruise experiences. How can this be, you might ask. Well, it's simple.

 

When you buy a cruise, you will buy a "bare bones" experience. Passage on the ship, three meals a day in the "standard" dining room or buffet, basic entertainment (think high school revue), etc., etc. Then there will be all kinds of "add on" options that you can use to customize your cruise experience. Let's say you are a real "foodie" and like only the finest of dining. Well, you can add the elegant dining package, which would include x number of dinners in each of three specialty restaurants, a special reserved section in the main dining room on other nights, free cocktails before dinner at a certain lounge two of the nights, free tux rental for the formal affairs, etc., etc. So, the person who likes to dine in elegant ambience will be able to do that by purchasing this package that will include all sorts of things which will appeal to that sort of person.

 

Let's say another person likes to learn on their cruises. Every cruise will have a couple of general "themes" around which the onboard lectures will be built. Let's say the theme one week is photography. The lecturers will present talks on photography subjects that anyone can attend. But then there will be a series of hands-on classes (kept to smallish groups) that passengers can buy into. Just like the "fine dining" package, these will be priced extra and will include a whole bunch of things that the amatuer photographer would like such as maybe a shore excursion where you go off with a professional photographer to practice your craft. On the same cruise where photography was a theme, there might be two other themes as well ... such as perhaps ballroom dancing and fine wines.

 

The bottom line is that many cruise lines WILL be all things to all people, or at least will try to be. They will do it by customizing the cruise experience for their passengers so that you can have a great cruise and I can also have a great cruise, though we both like different things.

 

Honestly, I think that could be a good thing, don't you?

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

 

 

Actually I dislike the megaships so no that doe snot appeal to me.

 

You know my very first cruise was on Carnival Tropicale back in 98. Even though,everyone made fun of Carnival back then as they do today,( even the TA we booked through) we were not so sure we wanted to spend a lot of money until we could see if we enjoyed being on a cruiseship.

 

The first night at dinner I had on a pair of white jeans and an embrodired tee-shirt (nice tee-not the sloganed type) my waiter tactfully informed me- that I was dressed okay for the first night but I must either wear slacks or a skirt and blouse or dress to dinner the rest of the cruise.

 

I was mortified somewhat and because I had not brought enough dressier clothing with me, so we ate in the lido restuarant one night. No one was allowed in the dinningroom back then, unless they were dressed appropriately, even on Carnival.

 

From then on I brought appropriate clothing and enjoyed the nice atomsphere at dinner. We took several more Carnival crusies and a couple of RCI and enjoyed them. Then we noticed that is seemed (after 9-11) that more and more people were not dressing approriately for dinner and were now allowed in the dinningroom.

 

Then we started to try differant lines seeif a little more upscale line would be better. We found that on Princess, although not as bad as Carnvial and RCI, you still saw a small percentage. On Celebrity almost everyone was dressed to code. We were told HAL, like Celebrity, 99,9% dress to code. ( people did on our one HAL pre 9-11 cruise)

 

I will be honest will you, I enjoyed my Carnival Tropicale cruise much more then I did Mariner of the Seas, and I would gladly go back on an old dump,like that ship was, if I could have the same nice atmosphere I had on my first cruise.

 

Call me an idiot but I actually enjoyed the Tropicale, the original Pacific Princess (600 PAX) and the Celebrity Zenith. I found plenty to do on those little ships. I have NO desire to ice skate or watch ice skating, rock climb or go bowling on a ship, or even to watch a movie in the a swimming pool. I am not interested in seeing grass growing on a ship either. Those are all things I can do and see in my home town (or within 25 miles of my home town as I live near Atlanta) if I choose to.

[RuthC]

The author (and I believe he was with CLIA, if I am not mistaken) believes that the cruise experience in the future will be HIGHLY customized. ...

Honestly, I think that could be a good thing, don't you?

No, I don't. That's not for me.

[HeatherInFlorida]

Originally Posted by teltrainer

You can't change other people but I can decide whether I want to be around them and choose a cabin or other line accordingly

 

Fantastic post!!! Yes we can!!! This is truer than true if that's possible:) .

 

Note: Applebee's vs. Ruby Tuesday ... maybe it depends where you live, but Applebee's surpasses Ruby Tuesdays in terms of food. Considering Applebee's is not a fine dining establishment in any way, shape, or form, I think it offers a very tasty menu.

 

But not so much that I want it on a cruise!!!:D

[pipedreams62]

This sounds like the answer for what some people are looking for on this topic. You have a Johnny Rockets restaurant,a rock clinmbing wall,and an ice skating rink,plus a surf pool on the stern.

 

This seems like a better atmosphere for that "casual" cruiser.

 

On Holland America,teak decks ,lots of nooks and crannies,dark wood,fresh flowers,they're trying to diplay elegance,and just can't see how shorts fit in,but I guess we'll all dumb down and see won't we?

[JPH814]

They will allow it just after I take my last HAL cruise...or just before I decide never to cruise HAL again.

[gizmo]

JHP814,

 

Do you know the Philly Phanatic ? Cute picture. :)

[teltrainer]

Glad you enjoyed my comments.

 

And, Heather...saw your formal night photos in your album and must say you looked quite elegant indeed :)

 

Enjoy your cruising!

 

Melissa

[momofmeg]

Fantastic post!!! Yes we can!!! This is truer than true if that's possible:) .

 

Note: Applebee's vs. Ruby Tuesday ... maybe it depends where you live, but Applebee's surpasses Ruby Tuesdays in terms of food. Considering Applebee's is not a fine dining establishment in any way, shape, or form, I think it offers a very tasty menu.

 

But not so much that I want it on a cruise!!!:D

 

Ruby Tuesdays changed their menu to make it more "up scale" and upped their prices in the process. I found it to be the same old Ruby Tuesdays. They may think they are a class above Applebees, TGI Fridays and the dozen or so other chains of restuarants that compete with each other, but if anything they are not as good, and charging more, does not make them better and I doubt they are fooling anyone into believing they are getting better quality or a more upscale experience.

[bUU]

So according to your opinion, I want to ask-why crusie HAL? If my cruising experience is not going to be any differant I may as well save my bucks and cruise Carnival.

If I recall correctly, Carnival was more expensive than Holland America for my recent cruise. So the answer to your question is that you can select a cruise based on the itinerary and the fare, and the fact that the people who cruise that cruise line are the kind of people you want to cruise with. Some folks feel that Carnival attracts a much too young audience, especially during college holiday times -- that's reason enough to cruise Holland America instead.

 

THAT is my gripe. Why can't there be a market for those who want a traditionial cruise experience?

There can be (and there is). The point is that a market isn't created by external forces -- a market is created by dollars. If the dollars aren't there, then don't expect a market to be there -- or more precisely, expect the market to be no bigger than the dollars for that market. The smaller the market (i.e., the fewer dollars) the fewer options you'll have in that market, and the fewer economies of scale that market will enjoy.

 

I understand "majority rules" and most just do not want this anymore- but I guess I am wondering why Carnival Corporation has all these differant cruiselines when basicially all of them are becoming the same.

It's only two cruise lines we're talking about: Carnival and Holland America, and even there, I believe there is still a significant difference between the two, specifically with regard to the average age of the passengers.

 

With regard to the rest of Carnival's lines, Princess is said to provide a higher grade of service -- that's not a matter of "traditional" versus "non-traditional" but a matter of the quality of service provided, etc. And Cunard is a step above that (and has a good bit of the "traditional" tilt as well, FWIR.)

 

Surely there is still a market for traditionlists.

But a smaller one, and one for which you have to pay a higher fare, corresponding to the smaller size of the market. Niche interest always lose the economies of scale discount.

[bUU]

And which one, may I ask, is the higher quality of food.

Ruby Tuesday's, by a mile.