U.S. government plans to fingerprint cruisers at terminals

[broberts]

This one little blurb tells me this issue is not so "clear" as you would have us believe.

 

Especially since the case you cited involved five US citizens re-entering the US. Not non-US citizens leaving the US.

 

I believe that the argument regarding Constitutional protection of non-US citizens is predicated on the belief that were they not protected then a US citizen would not be protected unless and until they were able to prove that they are a citizen, a situation that intrinsically violates their rights.

[nrdsb4]

Especially since the case you cited involved five US citizens re-entering the US. Not non-US citizens leaving the US.

 

I believe that the argument regarding Constitutional protection of non-US citizens is predicated on the belief that were they not protected then a US citizen would not be protected unless and until they were able to prove that they are a citizen, a situation that intrinsically violates their rights.

 

It was not the specific case that caught my attention (citizen vs. non citizen), it was the reference to the supreme court giving the federal government broad authority to conduct routine searches at its borders. While even researching this briefly, I came accross several references to fingerprinting in general not being considered an "unreasonable" search, unless it occurs during an unlawful holding of a person in custody. So if fingerprinting of its own citizens would not be considered "unreasonable," I fail to see how fingerprinting of foreign citizens at the borders could be a violation of their 4th amendment rights, particularly if it involves "all" foreign visitors vs. specifically targeted visitors.

 

Again, I'm not a lawyer, but even a lay person such as myself can find references in court law which refute that this is "CLEARLY" a violation of the 4th amendment.

[broberts]

Again, I'm not a lawyer, but even a lay person such as myself can find references in court law which refute that this is "CLEARLY" a violation of the 4th amendment.

 

In your searching did you find any cases that involved people attempting to leave the country? It seems to me that the direction makes a great deal of difference.

[nrdsb4]

In your searching did you find any cases that involved people attempting to leave the country? It seems to me that the direction makes a great deal of difference.

 

 

No, what little I did see were just many references to fingerprinting NOT being an unreasonable search (and saw several case references to it not being a seizure at all), particularly with regard to non criminal charges. If fingerprinting at our borders is not considered an unreasonable search by the supreme court, I don't see how coming or going is all that relevant. But lawyers do tend to duke it out over small details such as that!

 

I even saw many case references which were actually arguments regarding DNA testing and in many of those you'd see statements such as "While the courts have determined that there is no right to privacy with fingerprints, the same cannot be said for blood/DNA samples as those samples carry far more private data than fingerprints, which only serve to confirm identity). Stuff like that, as if it is pretty much a given that fingerprinting is not unreasonable, probable cause not required, etc.

 

I saw enough that I know I would not want to be a law clerk. Can't imagine the volumes that they must go through for even a simple case.

[DG2004]

More stupid window dressing from the ineffective government. At a time when we should be embracing international guests, we're insulting and angering them instead. Very smart.

 

 

bingo

[CV62]

This is not a rant but want to at least express a few thoughts with my fellow cruisers. Some people think its a great idea and I would imagine that many of them will not have to comply so of course its a great idea.

 

"Let's secure those borders because god knows the number of terrorists lining up to take a 7 day cruise to leave America, as they have heard its a blast to do shots at Carlos and Charlie's in Cozumel."

 

I am a US citizen and therefore will not be subject to the governments attempt to invade even one more step of dignity and privacy however; for those who will have to be fingerprinted its just a further erosion of privacy, civil liberties and will further perpetuate that the US is hostile to foreign visitors. For those on this board that have sailed numerous times its not inconceivable that foreign governments will further retaliate by making US visitors to their countries follow similar suit. Even more so, this is how they get their foot in the door as it starts with NON US and then once the new president is elected, a mandate from the oval office saying "further expansion of this wonderful program will ensure our borders are safe" I wouldn't be so naive and think its a great idea without at least asking a few questions about the program or investigating further. I cant even imagine the feds being organized to track all these fingerprints correctly, and looks like some major corp will be getting additional funding at $10,000 a reader or some ridiculous price. Geez I wonder which campaign they donated to ?????:D

 

I happen to be married to a foreign national with a green card and envision me and the kids standing in line A while my wife is sent to line B only to be interrogated and extended for an additional hour. "For god's sake officer, we just want to enjoy the waterpark onboard and shop at St. Thomas."

 

I personnaly do not feel safer "x" billion dollars later becuase TSA makes me take off my belt, shoes and wands me at the airport, as this is another government placebo.

 

Anyhow glad to here they want to fingerprint foreign cruisers...BLAH BLAH BLAH.... and too me a big waste of money... I guess tackling the issue with those land borders is just too hard....and if Bush had a magic wand to get us out of this fix he would wave it...(did you guys see that speech earlier this week) but come on people smell the flowers and wake up... I find it ironic that it was another George that started eroding the rights away of its citizens until they fought back... The illustrious King George III of England 1760-1801.. All I'm suggesting is ask a few questions before you jump on ....It's a good thing they are going after those darn foreigners.....at some point in your ancestral bloodline, we were all foreigner's.....

 

I thank you for your time and attention and hope I did not irritate too many people as this is a cruise forum... Heck I am even republican and think its a bad idea....... Looking forward the Carnival Splendor and hope I'm not fingerprinted when I get to Italy...:(

[gtalum]

Good post, CV62. It is just surreal to watch people happily line up to grant more power to the federal government, all in the name of an illusion of safety.

[CV62]

Good post, CV62. It is just surreal to watch people happily line up to grant more power to the federal government, all in the name of an illusion of safety.

 

Thanks gtalum. A few grammar/sp issues but the point was hopefully made. Appreciate your posts as well and you made some excellent points as well.

 

I'm not one to normal create a fuss and generally happy go lucky, however I do travel quite a bit like others on this forum and wouldn't be so quick to allow the FED's to mandate whatever they want as it's rarely for the reasons they publish, and more to serve the special interests that line their pockets. I'm all for security however last I checked departure ports are not ports of entry for foreign traveler's... If they want to check doc's on exit of the vessel I understand a little bit more as they are re-entering the US and their should be some validation, just not sure what that is or how many times it needs to be done. Anyone who has cruised to St. Thomas and had to clear immigration while in the middle of the cruise should know how intrusive and enjoyable that is, all for the name of security.

 

However this mandate is to fingerprint on departure from a US port.. Their justification by the way is to find "visa waiver's that have over stayed their allowable time in the US such as student visa's."

 

Here's a suggestion....Either stop frivolous grants and issuance of visa's or FIX THE VISA program!! Naaaahhhh that's too hard and like I said earlier theres no magic wand for GB to wave.... So let's go after private sector and mandate they do it since we are too disorganized to solve or even discuss it. Let's give out visa's to anyone and then never track them again until they decide to go on a cruise... Yeah...that's the ticket.. We should get them all... Especially since they are illegal overstaying and they will be the first to line up for a cruise so the government can once again find them. Next up the DMV, IRS and heck... Home Depot since visa holders love to do home repairs.

 

Senator what's his name needs to get re-elected so he slams his gavel in "x" committee session and says the people of the great state of "BLAH" need to secure those cruise ship borders. These are the same bozo's that were going to sell the ports to Dubai and allow them to secure until the American people stood up and said "Are you insane !!"

 

Bring me back to the 60's and 70's where the music was great (ok not disco but sure was a party), ball players stayed on the same team for a decade and for only $30K a year, and the people had a conscience and stood up and said "hell no we wont go". We have become such sheep it's despicable. I hope my kids grow up to question authority and simply say "why?" before they give it a pass. That's the mentality that founded this country but evidently that's for sale as well. :eek:

 

By the way that was a rant and I'm going to stop before my blood boils...:mad:. Think I'm going to go outside and play ball with the kids....

 

Thanks again fellow forum members to allow us to express our views. I really appreciate the healthy and logical debate, and would love to see more thought and discussion in the world....well at least in the US.:)

[DG2004]

This is not a rant but want to at least express a few thoughts with my fellow cruisers. Some people think its a great idea and I would imagine that many of them will not have to comply so of course its a great idea.

 

"Let's secure those borders because god knows the number of terrorists lining up to take a 7 day cruise to leave America, as they have heard its a blast to do shots at Carlos and Charlie's in Cozumel."

 

I am a US citizen and therefore will not be subject to the governments attempt to invade even one more step of dignity and privacy however; for those who will have to be fingerprinted its just a further erosion of privacy, civil liberties and will further perpetuate that the US is hostile to foreign visitors. For those on this board that have sailed numerous times its not inconceivable that foreign governments will further retaliate by making US visitors to their countries follow similar suit. Even more so, this is how they get their foot in the door as it starts with NON US and then once the new president is elected, a mandate from the oval office saying "further expansion of this wonderful program will ensure our borders are safe" I wouldn't be so naive and think its a great idea without at least asking a few questions about the program or investigating further. I cant even imagine the feds being organized to track all these fingerprints correctly, and looks like some major corp will be getting additional funding at $10,000 a reader or some ridiculous price. Geez I wonder which campaign they donated to ?????:D

 

I happen to be married to a foreign national with a green card and envision me and the kids standing in line A while my wife is sent to line B only to be interrogated and extended for an additional hour. "For god's sake officer, we just want to enjoy the waterpark onboard and shop at St. Thomas."

 

I personnaly do not feel safer "x" billion dollars later becuase TSA makes me take off my belt, shoes and wands me at the airport, as this is another government placebo.

 

Anyhow glad to here they want to fingerprint foreign cruisers...BLAH BLAH BLAH.... and too me a big waste of money... I guess tackling the issue with those land borders is just too hard....and if Bush had a magic wand to get us out of this fix he would wave it...(did you guys see that speech earlier this week) but come on people smell the flowers and wake up... I find it ironic that it was another George that started eroding the rights away of its citizens until they fought back... The illustrious King George III of England 1760-1801.. All I'm suggesting is ask a few questions before you jump on ....It's a good thing they are going after those darn foreigners.....at some point in your ancestral bloodline, we were all foreigner's.....

 

I thank you for your time and attention and hope I did not irritate too many people as this is a cruise forum... Heck I am even republican and think its a bad idea....... Looking forward the Carnival Splendor and hope I'm not fingerprinted when I get to Italy...:(

 

 

[candigirl41]

I'm happy to give my fingerprints. In California you have to do it to get a Drivers License. I watch too many crime shows where they body can't be identified by fingerprints and wonder why all states don't make it mandatory for that reason alone. God knows if my husband or child were missing I would be happy to know their fingerprints were on file and they could be identified if they were found.

 

Candi

[dthompsond1]

As a UK citizen I have had my fingerprints taken several times when entering the US. No problem except the time involved. If they start fingerprinting us on exit as well think of the extra time needed to board a plane. Say 200 foreign citizens boarding an international flight, each person takes a conservative extra 30 seconds to be processed that is an extra 1 hour and 40 minutes. We will soon be having to arrive at the airport the day before a flight lol. Hope it is not in by the time I fly to San Diego in December for my cruise otherwise I will be fingerprinted 4 times !!

[CV62]

I'm happy to give my fingerprints. In California you have to do it to get a Drivers License. I watch too many crime shows where they body can't be identified by fingerprints and wonder why all states don't make it mandatory for that reason alone. God knows if my husband or child were missing I would be happy to know their fingerprints were on file and they could be identified if they were found.

 

Candi

 

Lets pray nothing ever happens to your kids or hubby where you would ever have to rely on fingerprints for identification purposes...I think you may need to lay off the crime shows a bit and focus on a happy future cruise vacation...

[gtalum]

I believe that the argument regarding Constitutional protection of non-US citizens is predicated on the belief that were they not protected then a US citizen would not be protected unless and until they were able to prove that they are a citizen, a situation that intrinsically violates their rights.

 

Exactly. If non-citizens aren't offered the same protections as citizens, then our protections are by definition violated because the constitution does not give the federal government the power to require us to carry proof of citizenship around with us wherever we go.

[misguidedangel]

You americans are safe, it is me and all those other foreigners who come to the US to get on a cruise ship. I am so against it isn't funny. No way should they be allowed to do that, it goes against my rights. I have to ask, have ANY of you thought that if someone wants to stay they can conveniently DISAPPEAR and blend in with everything and as long as they do not commit a crime or go somewhere where fingerprinting is done (such as a theme park) they can lie low and life the life they want in your country. If you want an example of this is recently a woman was arrested afte 32 years on the lam for child abduction charges!!!! 32 years!!!! She laid low, changed names, and no one ever suspected.

 

Fingerprinting is not the solution, if anything it will only make Canadians, and all other foreigners angry and peeved off at the US!!!!! One has to think at cross-border shopping. Thousands of people cross the border everyday, imagine the hassels it will cause at border crossings?....

 

NO FINGERPRINTING!!!!

[Ready 2 Go]

Exactly. If non-citizens aren't offered the same protections as citizens, then our protections are by definition violated because the constitution does not give the federal government the power to require us to carry proof of citizenship around with us wherever we go.

 

 

I am just getting a kick out of reading all the posts on this subject. What really amazes me is how quickly Americans...US Citizens are willing to bend over backwards to make sure non-citizens are extended the same rights as we are when they are in this country. I believe being able to visit this country is a courtesy and if you want to become a citizen or live here permanently and enjoy the full extent of rights granted to you as a US citizen, then you should follow the guidelines and procedure to become a citizen. When Americans...US Citizens travel to other foreign countries (not just those we cruise to) we are not considered to be a citizen of that country or necessarily granted the rights of the natural residents of that country, so why should we as US Citizens be so willing to behave any differently here? It is my understanding they are fingerprinting people as they leave because we really dont know who is here legally or who is just "hanging-out" on an expired Visa and is deciding to take a little vaca and come back to the US and finish out their expired, illegal stay. If this process will be used for what it is intended for, then I say great! Look at the 911 participants, some of who were here on expired Visas.

[broberts]

I am just getting a kick out of reading all the posts on this subject. What really amazes me is how quickly Americans...US Citizens are willing to bend over backwards to make sure non-citizens are extended the same rights as we are when they are in this country. I believe being able to visit this country is a courtesy and if you want to become a citizen or live here permanently and enjoy the full extent of rights granted to you as a US citizen, then you should follow the guidelines and procedure to become a citizen. When Americans...US Citizens travel to other foreign countries (not just those we cruise to) we are not considered to be a citizen of that country or necessarily granted the rights of the natural residents of that country, so why should we as US Citizens be so willing to behave any differently here? It is my understanding they are fingerprinting people as they leave because we really dont know who is here legally or who is just "hanging-out" on an expired Visa and is deciding to take a little vaca and come back to the US and finish out their expired, illegal stay. If this process will be used for what it is intended for, then I say great! Look at the 911 participants, some of who were here on expired Visas.

 

I would like to correct what appear to be several misunderstandings. When you visit my country you are granted the same civil rights as a citizen. You can't vote, but the police can not simply haul you to jail because they feel like it. I believe the same to be true in the US, as I suspect it is in any part of the world that supports basic civil rights.

 

Border protection is, sensibly, a special case and, (as has been discussed in this thread), courts have upheld the right of the government to take reasonable steps to insure that entry is only granted to those deserving of it.

 

I do have to take issue with your suggestion that a 'foreigner' does not deserve the same civil rights as a citizen. If you deny these basic rights to anyone, you effectively deny them to everyone. "Oh, I'm sorry I thought he was a foreigner, that's why he wasn't Mirandized." probably won't cut it in any court.

 

I suspect that there are better, more efficient and effective ways of achieving the stated goal of the proposed fingerprint program. But what do I know about protecting a country - nothing. I'll leave the argument over the efficacy of such a program to more knowledgeable people.

[Avril]

Hope they print every foreigner...

 

 

Sorry... Every Country has the right to know who is entering and exiting their Country... one way or another. :)

 

So you're saying that every foreigner is a bad person and out to get the US and therefore should be tracked and watched? :confused: :eek: I'm sorry but I find that offencive. :(

 

And why not fingerprint their own citizens? Do they think that there are only bad foreigners and no bad Americans? I completely disagree.

And your government does know who is or isn't in the country. We have to show our passports when we enter the US just as you would if you entered my country (Canada).

[Ready 2 Go]

I would like to correct what appear to be several misunderstandings. When you visit my country you are granted the same civil rights as a citizen. You can't vote, but the police can not simply haul you to jail because they feel like it. I believe the same to be true in the US, as I suspect it is in any part of the world that supports basic civil rights.

 

Border protection is, sensibly, a special case and, (as has been discussed in this thread), courts have upheld the right of the government to take reasonable steps to insure that entry is only granted to those deserving of it.

 

I do have to take issue with your suggestion that a 'foreigner' does not deserve the same civil rights as a citizen. If you deny these basic rights to anyone, you effectively deny them to everyone. "Oh, I'm sorry I thought he was a foreigner, that's why he wasn't Mirandized." probably won't cut it in any court.

 

I suspect that there are better, more efficient and effective ways of achieving the stated goal of the proposed fingerprint program. But what do I know about protecting a country - nothing. I'll leave the argument over the efficacy of such a program to more knowledgeable people.

 

 

Agreeable broberts. Basic civil rights yes. However, I guess my point is that if your country implemented some guideline for visitors and I wanted to visit your country not being a citizen, then I guess I would 2 options. To either obide the guidelines set forth or not visit your country. I am sure the original poster of this thread did not expect to ignite such a intimate discussion. Can't we all just get along??!! :o

[Avril]

I would like to correct what appear to be several misunderstandings. When you visit my country you are granted the same civil rights as a citizen. You can't vote, but the police can not simply haul you to jail because they feel like it. I believe the same to be true in the US, as I suspect it is in any part of the world that supports basic civil rights.

 

Border protection is, sensibly, a special case and, (as has been discussed in this thread), courts have upheld the right of the government to take reasonable steps to insure that entry is only granted to those deserving of it.

 

I do have to take issue with your suggestion that a 'foreigner' does not deserve the same civil rights as a citizen. If you deny these basic rights to anyone, you effectively deny them to everyone. "Oh, I'm sorry I thought he was a foreigner, that's why he wasn't Mirandized." probably won't cut it in any court.

 

I suspect that there are better, more efficient and effective ways of achieving the stated goal of the proposed fingerprint program. But what do I know about protecting a country - nothing. I'll leave the argument over the efficacy of such a program to more knowledgeable people.

 

I agree with you 100%!! :D

[Avril]

Can't we all just get along??!! :o

 

Of course we can. :D I love you Americans I just think that you need to start treating people fom other countries with the same amount of respect, dignity, fairness, whatever you want to call it as your own citizens. I'm really proud and happy with the way our 2 countries have managed to get along so well for so many years!! :D

[wayne_trisha]

You americans are safe, it is me and all those other foreigners who come to the US to get on a cruise ship. I am so against it isn't funny. No way should they be allowed to do that, it goes against my rights.

 

STAY HOME.

 

I'm really not sure what rights you have as a guest in a foreign country.

[sassy0930]

I agree with some when I say, "if you don't like it stay home."

 

It's already law in most places to be fingerprinted when you come into the country (maybe only for an extended stay??) so to be fingerprinted again on the way out is just to ensure that you didn't commit any crimes while you're here. It may seem bad that we're checking everyone for criminal activity, but if your country had been attacked the way ours was you'd respond the same way!

 

I know I'd submit to this because I don't think they can do anything with it. I'm not giving them REAL PERSONAL info. The aren't taking my credit card numbers, bank account numbers or anything like that. Just checking against the databank to see if I should be allowed to sail. I don't think I feel any more SECURE but it's good to know that our country is finally starting to implement ways to enforce the laws we already have.

 

Again my big beef is that they're expecting the private industry to take the burden of the cost.

[shipty2]

Actually at Disney and Busch gardens you are not fingerprinted. What they use is a biometric scanner which measures the size and shape of your finger not your fingerprint. This info cannot be used to identify you -only to narrow down the number of people who would fit into the narrow parameters of the scan thereby reducing the chance of you buying a multiday Disney ticket then selling unused days to someone else.

 

What is being proposed here for cruise passengers is actual finger printing.

[broberts]

I agree with some when I say, "if you don't like it stay home."

 

It's already law in most places to be fingerprinted when you come into the country (maybe only for an extended stay??) so to be fingerprinted again on the way out is just to ensure that you didn't commit any crimes while you're here. It may seem bad that we're checking everyone for criminal activity, but if your country had been attacked the way ours was you'd respond the same way!

 

I know I'd submit to this because I don't think they can do anything with it. I'm not giving them REAL PERSONAL info. The aren't taking my credit card numbers, bank account numbers or anything like that. Just checking against the databank to see if I should be allowed to sail. I don't think I feel any more SECURE but it's good to know that our country is finally starting to implement ways to enforce the laws we already have.

 

Again my big beef is that they're expecting the private industry to take the burden of the cost.

 

I agree with the "stay at home" comment. Although I suspect the cruise lines and many other businesses that depend on foreign visitors would like to have some imput on that.

 

What countries demand fingerprints upon entry by foreigners? The only country I'm aware of that does this is the US, and it is only done under certain circumstances. As to "checking everyone for criminal activity", there are so many issues with this. First, it isn't checking "everyone", just foreigners. Second, I haven't seen a suggestion that this is how the data will be used, my impression was that it was to help in tracking down visa holders who overstay their welcome. Third, it strikes me that using it in this way could be argued to be a violation of basic civil rights - assuming guilt without probable cause. Finally, other countries have been subjected to devastating terrorist attacks, some repeatedly over long periods of time, and their reactions have not necessarily followed the apparent reaction of the US.

 

Surrendering a fingerprint is giving personal information. I'm not entirely sure why so many object to it. Certainly cruise passengers already provide sufficient information to determine who they are and for authorized access to personal financial and other information.

 

Your objection to having private industry bear the cost makes sense. I suspect that if this is the final outcome, then there will be many who suggest that the cost should be entirely borne by those subject to fingerprinting. After all, it hardly seems fair to ask those not being fingerprinted to pay. Of course, asking foreigners to bear the entire cost is simply going to add one more perceived roadblock to visiting the US. The general impression of many outside the US is that it is unwelcoming of foreigners. This would be just another brick in that wall. The question is, does the wall provide enough protection to justify the cost to businesses that depend on foreigner visitors?

[wrf2e]

Ok I can't just not put my 2 cents in on this one. I work at an International Airport for a legacy airline and am personally responsible for the security of the airport and aircrat just like everyone else that works here.

 

I don't see what "rights" anyone is giving up by being fingerprinted when leaving the country. What is private about a fingerprint. Whenever I visit a foriegn country I know that I am just that, A VISITOR, and would have no problem submiting to a fingerprint scan not only when crossing a border but anytime I am in the country.

 

To those of you that say we are giving away rights in the name of security I disagree. I would also venture to say that if you were to ask the family members of 9/11 victims they would feel the same way. We were attacked by LEGAL ALIENS that had overstayed their alotted time in this country and one of the new security measures now in place that I am personally familliar with would have at least flagged their status as staying over their alloted time. That measure being having to prove citizenship or going through a background check before a part 141 flight school can begin training. When I started flight training a couple of years ago I had to submit a birth certificate or passport to the school before I could take my first lesson. There was a guy in my class who is a Canadian citizen that had to go through a background check before he could begin.

 

As an airline employee I see loopholes in airport security everyday that can and may be exploited. This just goes to show that more DOES need to be done to secure our airports and borders. Before I could be given a security badge I had to go through an FBI background check that involved fingerprints but that is a one-time thing that i feel needs to be addressed by adding yearly background checks of all airport employees with security area access.

 

For those of you that say it seams silly to fingerprint cruise passengers on round-trip cruises just go back and read the thread about a man that had a warrent for his arrest that tried to board a cruise ship but was caught because the lines are mandated to send in passenger information to Homeland Security.