NY-area person booted from RCCL cruise in Norway

[browneyes7]

...for handing out leaflets stating that the Art Auction is a ripoff.

 

Someone should buy that man a drink.

 

 

http://www.wcbs880.com/topic/play_window.php?audioType=Episode&audioId=3912140

 

(My apologies if this was already posted...)

 

I am really surprised that ANYONE buys art at the art auctions. There have been so many news articles, etc., on how these auctions are a rip-off! I wouldn't even consider buying any of it.:confused:

[jbond]

So you were there and witnessed it, right?

No???

Then you saw a video of the whole thing,

right???

No???

You read a transcript??? Saw the handout???

Or did you hear or read something second or third hand to come to this conclusion???

CAN'T FIX STUPID!

What was it that you stated....

]Where does RCL say they can kick you off the boat for voicing your opinion? Doesn't even sound like he was making a scene. Just handing out some flyers.

How about you?

You were there and witnessed it, right?

No???

Then you saw a video of the whole thing,

right???

No???

You read a transcript??? Saw the handout???

Or did you hear or read something second or third hand to come to this conclusion???

CAN'T FIX STUPID!

You said, not me.:rolleyes:

[EmJakeBubbie]

waaay back, in the early days of on board art auctions, I had time to spare. Being curious, I did sit in on an "auction" - quickly, I was caught up in auction-fever. I found myself bidding on the cutest picture I thought was imaginable. Quickly, some goof started bidding against me - being the uneducated novice, I was, I kept going - we both got the picture, as the bidding war was ceased, for something in the neighborhood of $45.

(I remember being thrilled, and the whole experience was fun.)

Imagine my shock and awe to end up spending $250, total, to ship it home. I absolutely didn't have a clue about packaging, shipping, insurance expenses. The picture was a gift to my DH for treating me to this cruise with my auntie and mum. Many years, later, we still have that picture, hanging in our bedroom - it is a snow seal, framed in a "floating frame" - 28" x 35", this picture is the largest picture in our home, and was my lesson in "art auctions". The moral is: "I bought what I wanted and didn't pay a ridiculous price. It was a nice gift; a nice cruise memory. Nowadays, I don't even drink the champagne in those auctions, as it's usually nasty!

Same thing for the casinos .... too easy to get caught up in the hoopla ...ships weren't built on our winnings! :rolleyes:

[SA Traveler]

Some of it may be overpriced but I have one specific piece I bought and wanted more by the same artist. Park West no longer represents this artist. I went online and tried to buy something of a comparable size and couldn't touch it (not even close) for what I paid Park West for the first one.

 

I have several others I bought and based on my online research the price I paid was appropriate. (I don't spend a LOT of money on art - just buy the less expensive things I really like.) I have no more wall space so no longer go to the auctions. I've spent more on framing (locally) than on the art.

 

I couldn't afford to spend thousands of dollars on art but if I could I wouldn't buy it on a cruise ship.

[bluegirlum]

RCCL said he "acted inappropriately". So, it's like the restaurant signs "we reserve the right to refuse service blah, blah, blah".

 

I would imagine if somebody handed out literature in front of a business on private property, trying to convince people to not patronize that business, the management would have them escorted off the premises, right? What's the diff between that and the cruise ship?

 

He was an idiot to think he could get away with this. He forgot that private property is just that: in the hands of the owner and management.

 

I doubt he has any legal recourse, either. I don't see where RCCL broke any laws doing what they did. The worst was he was greatly inconvenienced. Of course, some lawyer will definitely take the case: it's a deep pockets deal with RCCL.

 

If something is a rip-off, DON'T BUY IT!!! If you do: buyer beware.

 

Right...A cruise ship is hardly a public forum for free speech. If RCCL thought he was creating a disturbance with what he was doing, they could throw him off. He didn't have the right to say that stuff just because he paid for a ticket on the cruise.

 

Doesn't mean I don't agree with him. I know a little about art, and it surprises me that anyone would buy the stuff on the ship, or at least buy it without researching it first. I always look to see how much perfume costs at home before I go, and I know how much I can get a watch for, so if I'm going to plunk down $20000 on paintings, I'm sure as heck going to know what they're worth. Caveat emptor.

[Charles4515]

I am really surprised that ANYONE buys art at the art auctions. There have been so many news articles, etc., on how these auctions are a rip-off! I wouldn't even consider buying any of it.:confused:

 

Not surprising. There are a lot of gullible people. They are helping to keep the prices of cruises down though :-)

 

That said handing out leaflets on a cruise ship at one of the cruise lines major revenue enhancers onboard exposing it----- is dumb unless you expect to be kicked off to make a point.

[fungirl28]

While I think that Priusprof is just a teeny tiny bit over the top (:eek:!), I do agree: You can't fix stupid.

 

Quote from one of coxswain's links:

 

"It was very upsetting,” Mr. Maldonado said. “I’m not mad about spending $73,000.

I’m mad about spending $73,000 for works that I was told are worth more than $100,000 and are probably worth $10,000, if they’re even real.”

 

He went on a cruise and CHOSE TO SPEND SEVENTY THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS just on some guy's say-so?!?!?!?!?!?!? :eek:

 

Best post so far. I wouldn't shell out a dollar, especially not this amount of money on anything that I couldn't get verification on from an outside source.

 

What was it that you stated....

 

How about you?

You were there and witnessed it, right?

No???

Then you saw a video of the whole thing,

right???

No???

You read a transcript??? Saw the handout???

Or did you hear or read something second or third hand to come to this conclusion???

CAN'T FIX STUPID!

You said, not me.:rolleyes:

 

Chuckle:D

[ehfl]

Reminds me of John Stossel doing an "investigative" reporting piece several years ago that came to the conclusion that professional wrestling was faked.

 

And they say that the US Media is not on top of things.

[Alexis]

I LOVE IT!

 

Jacob is my hero! Ofcourse he knew what he was doing. He has probably been sc#*wed in the past and couldn't get anyone to respond to his letter and calls.

 

So book another trip and disrupts the auction, get tons of media, pisses off the cruiseline, and remind everybody what a rip-off these events are.

 

Getting kicked off is too bad. But it also makes the cruiseline look stupider.

 

I say Game, Set, Match....Way to go Jacob!

 

I think he accomplished exactly what he set out to do. Get the media involved to shed more light on those ridiculous auctions on the ships.

To me they cheapen the Royal Caribbean name.

The Art Auction Company has already been in serious trouble, (just goggle them) and have had to change the way they run them and handle the returns and warranties.

They are one step away from being a rip off. :( Just enough to be legal. :mad:

EDIT: Would I do that on a ship. NEVER!

I also would never buy a piece of their art. ;)

[smoosh21]

Would you all be so supportive of this guy if he went through the bars telling everyone that the drink prices were a ripoff and that they shouldn't buy the drinks? Or what if he walked through Chops and did the same thing?

 

The cruise ship has the right to sell what they want to sell. I am also pretty sure that he did more than just hand out leaflets if he got kicked off the ship.

[Alexis]

I tried to add to my above post but my time ran out.

I was not supporting what Jacob did on the RCCL ship. I was only agreeing that I believe he planned on doing that with the fliers to bring attention to the Art Auction company to get Media Attention. I believe he had a reason of his own.

I was not supporting that kind of behavior on a ship.

[TPKeller]

I would sure like to see a copy of what he was handing out!

 

:D

 

Theron

[Islandbear]

http://www.fineartadvocacy.com/articles/2009/07/a-tsunami-of-class-action-lawsuits-filed-against-park-west-gallery.php

 

On July 22, 2009, a fourth class action lawsuit was filed in the United States District Court in Michigan against the self-proclaimed "largest art gallery on the planet," Park West Galleries, Inc., Park West Gallery, PWG Florida, Inc. which does business as Fine Art Sales, Inc., Vista Fine Art, LLC. dba Park West at Sea, Albert Scaglione and Royal Caribbean Cruises, Ltd.

Interesting that Royal Caribbean is included in the DBA (Doing Buisness As):rolleyes:

[Islandbear]

I would sure like to see a copy of what he was handing out!

 

:D

 

Theron

 

You got to love the INTERNET!

 

Here is the Handout!

Park West Auction Information*

* Please note that all of the information compiled in this handout may or may not be true, just like everything that the auctioneer says in today's auction. The important difference is that I do not stand to profit from my actions, unlike Park West. This information has been compiled from Internet sources of news reports, fraud protection resources and people's stories. Please evaluate and decide for yourself.

1. There are lawsuits and class action lawsuits against Park West for fraudulent practices in their at-sea auctions. For example:
   
   1. 
      
   2. Customers Sue Park West Gallery and Royal Caribbean Claiming Fraud, Conspiracy and Other Charges
      http://www.free-press-release.com/news/200901/1231425629.html
      "All the Plaintiffs were sold artwork by Park West Galleries. Their allegations include violation of Michigan's warranty in fine arts statute, fraud, violation of the Michigan Consumer Protection Act, breach of contract, violation of the Michigan art multiple sales act, negligent misrepresentation, conspiracy and unjust enrichment. The Plaintiffs combined purchased hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of art which was later found by experts to either be fake or have forged signatures, or to be heavily overpriced and misrepresented as bargains and investments by the Park West auctioneers and sales people responsible for the sales."
      
   3. Park West Gallery Faces Class Action for Racketeering and Fraud
      http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/case/park-west-galleries-art-scam-park-west-galleries.html
      "The complaint seeks damages and other appropriate relief for the Class and charges the Defendants with violations of the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization Act ("RICO"), 18 U.S.C. Section 1961, state consumer protection laws, breach of contract, breach of warranty and the common law. Plaintiffs allege that defendants operated a fraudulent scheme to target the naive art purchaser by touting that the artwork sold at these shipboard auctions were good investments that would appraise for many more times the purchase price, when, in fact, the artwork plaintiffs received was either of low value, worthless or fake. The complaint also alleges that Park West sold phony appraisals to art purchasers, and that Park West conducted its on-board art auctions while cruise ships were traveling in international waters in an effort to avoid application of state consumer protection laws to its illegal activities."
      

[*]There are fraud protection websites which describe people's experiences of unfair practices of Park West at sea. For example, if you go to http://www.dba-oracle.com/t_cruise_art_auctions_scam_fraud.htm you will find the following issues:

1. "All cruise ship art auctions are conducted in international waters and they are insulated from US consumer protection and fraud laws."
   

   [*]"Cruise auctions shilling (false bidding): 'At every auction I witnessed, the art auctioneers disclose that they will be pulling fake bids. This practice is called "shilling", and it's legal in most States, so long as it is announced in advance. However, almost all of the attendees I spoke with did not understand that the auctioneer has the right to "pretend" that someone is bidding against them.'"

   [*]"No Credit card reversals - According to this complaint, some cruise ship art galleries charge exorbitant restocking fees of over $800, and a credit card reversal will not help you get a refund."

"The auctioneers are not regulated by any USA state or jurisdiction."
"US consumer fraud laws and deceptive business practice laws do not always apply on the high seas."

[luckyprincess]

You got to love the INTERNET!

 

Here is the Handout!

Park West Auction Information*

 

 

* Please note that all of the information compiled in this handout may or may not be true, just like everything that the auctioneer says in today's auction. The important difference is that I do not stand to profit from my actions, unlike Park West. This information has been compiled from Internet sources of news reports, fraud protection resources and people's stories. Please evaluate and decide for yourself.

1. There are lawsuits and class action lawsuits against Park West for fraudulent practices in their at-sea auctions. For example:
   1. 
      
   2. Customers Sue Park West Gallery and Royal Caribbean Claiming Fraud, Conspiracy and Other Charges
      http://www.free-press-release.com/news/200901/1231425629.html
      "All the Plaintiffs were sold artwork by Park West Galleries. Their allegations include violation of Michigan's warranty in fine arts statute, fraud, violation of the Michigan Consumer Protection Act, breach of contract, violation of the Michigan art multiple sales act, negligent misrepresentation, conspiracy and unjust enrichment. The Plaintiffs combined purchased hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of art which was later found by experts to either be fake or have forged signatures, or to be heavily overpriced and misrepresented as bargains and investments by the Park West auctioneers and sales people responsible for the sales."
      
   3. Park West Gallery Faces Class Action for Racketeering and Fraud
      http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/case/park-west-galleries-art-scam-park-west-galleries.html
      "The complaint seeks damages and other appropriate relief for the Class and charges the Defendants with violations of the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization Act ("RICO"), 18 U.S.C. Section 1961, state consumer protection laws, breach of contract, breach of warranty and the common law. Plaintiffs allege that defendants operated a fraudulent scheme to target the naive art purchaser by touting that the artwork sold at these shipboard auctions were good investments that would appraise for many more times the purchase price, when, in fact, the artwork plaintiffs received was either of low value, worthless or fake. The complaint also alleges that Park West sold phony appraisals to art purchasers, and that Park West conducted its on-board art auctions while cruise ships were traveling in international waters in an effort to avoid application of state consumer protection laws to its illegal activities."
      

[*]There are fraud protection websites which describe people's experiences of unfair practices of Park West at sea. For example, if you go to http://www.dba-oracle.com/t_cruise_art_auctions_scam_fraud.htm you will find the following issues:

1. "All cruise ship art auctions are conducted in international waters and they are insulated from US consumer protection and fraud laws."

   [*]"Cruise auctions shilling (false bidding): 'At every auction I witnessed, the art auctioneers disclose that they will be pulling fake bids. This practice is called "shilling", and it's legal in most States, so long as it is announced in advance. However, almost all of the attendees I spoke with did not understand that the auctioneer has the right to "pretend" that someone is bidding against them.'"

   [*]"No Credit card reversals - According to this complaint, some cruise ship art galleries charge exorbitant restocking fees of over $800, and a credit card reversal will not help you get a refund."

   This is a perfectly reasonable hand out and doesn't seem overtly obnoxious to me. I'm sure this would be considered a 'disturbance' to them. However, I also think he probably knew he would be asked to leave for doing it. I think I read that he was frustrated at getting no response. So what to do? Get press - lots of it! :p Pretty smart way to bring attention to the issue, I think.

   Also, there are many people (I know, no CC'ers would ever be so naive! They know EVERYTHING about art and auctions and buyer beware) that would have a reasonable expectation that someone being billed as an appraiser (or that the artwork was appraised at this amount) would actually appraise the artwork in an honest way. If RCCL is saying you can take your winning print to an appraiser on board (do they do this?) then I assume that there are folks that would not think that they would then have to get a CORRECT and HONEST appraisel (? sp.) somewhere else. One may have the reasonable expectation that they aren't being lied to or baited. Is everyone so broken, cynical and bitter that they think normal people should automatically assume that RCCL's art auction company on board are liars and thieves?? Really?

   As an aside I would never shell out money for one of the prints. If I did and they wouldn't give it to me and instead tried to make me pay shipping than I would immediatly stop the sale as that is shady. But I'm not going to fault people that would assume that this is a respected company if they think that RCCL is a respected company. Why would RCCL put a bunch of crooks (that is pretty close to what they are, seemingly) on their ship to lie, cheat and steal from their customers? That's the real question - and I think they'll be dropped in no time due to the class action suit, personally.

"The auctioneers are not regulated by any USA state or jurisdiction."
"US consumer fraud laws and deceptive business practice laws do not always apply on the high seas."

[bluegirlum]

The information he apparently put in the handout is all public information that can be obtained if you search for it. Not like he was handing out false information. But again, I think the problem is that a private cruise ship is not a public forum and this would qualify as a "disturbance."

 

The art dealers aren't really going to give out the info on the lawsuits, etc. themselves, are they?

 

This guy really must feel that he got screwed if he was willing to cause such a disturbance. It certainly does raise the issue of why RCCL would continue to associate itself with a company that does not seem to be very reputable. Sure, anyone can file a lawsuit, but more than one? Not good.

[CGTNORMANDIE]

Looks like Jacob got caught...wading in a revenue stream.

[Garyorient]

This is a great thread and I have no intention posting on it:)

Save to say that if a member of the public invaded MY space on MY holiday to illustate a gripe that HE had with MY tour operator I would tell him very impolitely where to go, as I would have no wish whatsoever to be disturbed on my hard earned and worked for vacation by someone who had his own agenda, and one that I am neither interested in or actually care about.

 

I think he got what he deserved.......but I wouldn't post that here for fear of some art maven on Cruise Critictelling me how wrong I am

[luckyprincess]

This is a great thread and I have no intention posting on it:)

Save to say that if a member of the public invaded MY space on MY holiday to illustate a gripe that HE had with MY tour operator I would tell him very impolitely where to go, as I would have no wish whatsoever to be disturbed on my hard earned and worked for vacation by someone who had his own agenda, and one that I am neither interested in or actually care about.

 

I think he got what he deserved.......but I wouldn't post that here for fear of some art maven on Cruise Critictelling me how wrong I am

I get that - I really do. But I see it more as if a member of the 'public' (not sure how he is different than you if you are both passengers on the same cruise ship you would both be public) stopped me before I was to buy a watch at a resort shop and let me know that this company has several class action lawsuits and the watch I'm about to buy has a high probability of being fake or junk or not actually worth what a certified appraised form says it is - then I would be very grateful. I would surely not buy the watch. To say you would rudely tell that person off and that they are disturbing you by interrupting a sale that could be saving you a lot of money and aggravation is a little weird. If you were going to buy a bike off of a private seller and someone comes over to you and tells you that that person has been sued numerous times for selling stolen bikes - would you say 'Sc#$w you - I am spending my hard earned money here - you are interrupting me!'? Seems an odd response to me....

[MINIDRVR]

Excuse me BUT why aren't just as many people upset about going DOWN into the Gambling Den and giving their money away to the electronic devices and card tables and coming back up with much lighter pockets - I'm mean we all know that the machines are calibrated to only allow a very few winners - the house is the BIG winner there always......the % of losers certainly is greater then the winners.....do I hear the word ADDICTION! :eek:

[carhirer]

Leaflet Guy could have been a lawyer. He was so matter-of-fact and restrained in the drafting of his leaflet.

 

It is unfortunate that RCCL called his bluff. Their over-reaction do show how sensitive they are to the accusation. I can only hope that his predicament is used by the lawyers on the class action to boost their case. RCCL really are a soulless bunch who display nothing but contempt for the punters.

 

And the cheerleaders who rush to their defence every time are equally unpleasant.

 

Having said that, some of the punters, at least those with $73K of loose change to buy signed prints of long-dead painters, really do defy credibility.

 

(I admit I once did buy a "limited edition Canon print" in a small shop in London. I had to admire the audacity of the description. But it was only £30 and it was framed and I liked it)

[luckyprincess]

Excuse me BUT why aren't just as many people upset about going DOWN into the Gambling Den and giving their money away to the electronic devices and card tables and coming back up with much lighter pockets - I'm mean we all know that the machines are calibrated to only allow a very few winners - the house is the BIG winner there always......the % of losers certainly is greater then the winners.....do I hear the word ADDICTION! :eek:

I think because if you gamble you know you're going to probably lose - at least I know that's the case for me! lol:p This is entirely different because you are being told that the money you spend will get you a product (not the chance of more money) and that the product is valuable to xx amount. Gambling is buying a chance. Totally different. IMHO:)

[madforcruising]

I suppose some people get caught up in the moment and buy things they know NOTHING about..........Yes, a fool and his money is soon parted.

 

Goes along with the folks that gamble too IMHO :eek:. Do you REALLY think you're going to win more then you lose.....wish they would just hand it over to me before they go into that joint........:p

 

 

Well I have a different view of the gambling deal, but then it might be because I´m not one of the serious or high rolling gamblers. I´m going to the casino to have some fun and with a set limit. If that money is gone in ten minutes of gambling, too bad, it was a short night out. If I gamble within my limit for 4 hours and get out of there with nothing in my pocket. Great an evening out having fun. I see it as a price paid for some entertainment, comparable to paying for a show. If I get ahead, all the better. BTW over the years I break even or get ahead more times than loosing, but as the ante is small so is the winning. As I said it´s sort of entertainment.

[madforcruising]

Amen, brother.

 

Gunnar, I fly the Bavarian flag regularly in our yard. I just love the colors of that flag! Probably because I am a Carolina Tarheels fan, so I love the Blue and White. I know that means nothing to you. :D

 

jc

 

JC,

have to admit that I had to google the Tarheels;), but I´m sure the bavarians are proud their flag is up in your backyard:cool: I´m flying it in my siggie because I´ll meet some great CC friends in bavaria in Dec.:D

 

Sorry for the OT, back to regular programming.

[mjldvlks]

I have found a couple of articles about the incident. To be fair, after reading these articles, I am less convinced that Jacobs came on board with an agenda. It wouldn't surprise me, but I have no evidence that is the case. However, Jacobs tends to shade the story a bit in my opinion. In one article [http://www.lohud.com/article/2009907300379]

he says:

 

his only offense was downloading information about an art auction business run onboard the ship that has been the subject of numerous lawsuits alleging unfair business practices, and then passing around a one-page fact sheet about the company to fellow passengers.

 

In another article [http://www.pressreleasepoint.com/oslo-norway-%E2%80%94-28-july-2009#factsheet] it turns out that those "fellow passengers" just happened to be the registered bidders at the auction. Clearly he was out to disrupt the auction.

 

In the fervent conviction that there are always at least 2 sides to every story, and in the interest of getting both sides of the story into the record, here is a statement from RCI:

 

Royal Caribbean spokeswoman Cynthia Martinez, sent this statement yesterday: "Various guests reported to the ship's staff that Mark Jacobs was disrupting the onboard art auction by distributing a flyer to guests. The ship's Hotel Director and Staff Captain met with Mr. Jacobs and explained that his behavior was inappropriate and in violation of the guest conduct policy. In addition, they explained that failure to act in accordance with the policy could result in removal from the ship at the next port of call. Mr. Jacobs continued to be uncooperative and difficult, which resulted in a decision to disembark him the following day in Oslo, Norway, the next port of call."

 

Note RCI says they were responding to a complaint by another passenger, and that they warned him first. I wonder if the President would say RCI acted "stupidly" or if a beer summit could fix the situation.