Neurovirus

Keep your hands away from face.... don't touch nose, eyes, mouth, ears. They are all portals for the virus to enter the body.

 

This is so true Sail, most people aren't aware of how much they touch their faces. Also this certainly applies to when we eat food and use our hands and not eating utensils, things like tacos, a sandwich or burger, french fries etc. Then our hands and whatever is on them touch our mouths for sure. I'm a firm believer in frequent hand washing, especially when I am on a cruise.

Lorie

As someone who recently had to rewrite a hand washing policy for a health care facility I can tell you that the CDC guidelines themselves, even though they encourage regular hand washing with soap and water, acknowledge that the evidence for the efficacy of this is "very low" ( their words not mine). They recommend this because it is still considered to be important. It is especially important when the hands are visibly contaminated and during gastrointestinal outbreaks.However, effective washing is rarely performed even by health care workers, so I think the reliability of hand washing alone with the lay public is pretty poor. Also if the person touches the taps before washing they spread contamination to the next person by this means.

 

There is stronger evidence for alcohol based rubs ( not antibacterial ) of greater than 60% alcohol.

 

The World Health Organization Guidelines recommend alcohol based rubs always, with hand washing when the hands are soiled. When used properly ( so that it takes almost a minute for your hands to dry after application) they are quite effective. If you use too little , so that your hands dry too quickly, they are less effective.

 

If I wanted to minimize my own risk of infection I would do both for sure.

After washing my hands I always leave the water running while I dry my hands and get a dry clean paper towel to use to turn off the water. I use the same dry paper towel to open the bathroom door as I exit. It makes no sense after washing your hands thoroughly to use clean hands to touch contaminated faucet handles and doors. Perhaps I'm going a little overboard, but it's better than the alternative. Same with doors, elevator buttons, and stair railings...never use my hands, always an elbow, forearm, or shoulder. Coughing into the crook of your elbow is better than into ones hand...terrible way of spreading germs.

Well Doctor, I think you bring up an interesting point. Perhaps you could bring that up at the next AMA meeting. At least publish a paper on how we're all getting soft from being too clean. After a peer review I bet we get down to the truth (anti bacterial conspiracy?). Until then, and as long as we are in close quarters on a cruise ship, I think we should go with what the experts have determined.

Why are you suggesting this poster is incorrect.. She is absolutely correct!

None of the so called experts suggest using an anti=bacterial wash to protect against Noro! Noro is not a bacteria it is a virus! There is no specific medicine to treat people with norovirus illness. Norovirus infection cannot be treated with antibiotics because it is not a bacterial infection.

Anti=bacterial's which HAL uses, have some protection against bacteria only..

According to the experts plain soap & water helps but will not protect you against Noro, which is both a food borne illness & an air borne illness ..The only way to protect against Noro is by staying away from a person who has it & that is very hard on a cruise ship.. Because many who have Noro, will not remain in their cabins or go to the ship's Medical Dept...

BTW I learned this in class at the local Hospital where I volunteered!

The only way to protect against Noro is by staying away from a person who has it & that is very hard on a cruise ship

Uh... OK?

From CDC:

"Protect Yourself and Others from Norovirus

•Practice proper hand hygiene

Wash your hands carefully with soap and water, especially after using the toilet and changing diapers and always before eating or preparing food. If soap and water aren't available, use an alcohol-based hand sanitizer. These alcohol-based products can help reduce the number of germs on your hands, but they are not a substitute for washing with soap and water."

Exactly. I do wish some posters would stop trying to discourage the use of alcohol or purell sanitizers. My feeling is at least it cannot hurt, and quite likely helps. I understand that the wipes are more effective, however.

The issue I have with pushing sanitizers is that using it too easily becomes a replacement for proper hand washing, instead of supplementing it.

They started placing hand sanitizers at all elevators at work a few years ago and people would come in (say from the NYC subways), squirt a dollop of sanitizer on their hands, spread it around for 2 seconds and feel that there hands were germ free and clean. How many of them would go to wash their hands properly after that? I would rather use my hands to handle elevator buttons and doors then drop my stuff at my desk and immediately go wash my hands. Not too many others did the same. Who had the cleaner hands?

Uh... OK?

From CDC:

 

"Protect Yourself and Others from Norovirus

•Practice proper hand hygiene

Wash your hands carefully with soap and water, especially after using the toilet and changing diapers and always before eating or preparing food. If soap and water aren't available, use an alcohol-based hand sanitizer. These alcohol-based products can help reduce the number of germs on your hands, but they are not a substitute for washing with soap and water."

I bolded your sentence which you quote.. "alcohol-based hand sanitizer can help reduce germs! " These are not a substitute for soap & water!

It does not say it will prevent Noro which is what Sail was trying to say..

On cruise ships we have good ole soap & water & many think that using the hand sanitizer instead of soap & water will prevent Noro..It does not!! This thread is about Noro, not bacteria which Anti=Bacterial Sanitizers Help REDUCE ! ..[

I also quote from the CDC WEB site: http://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/about/overview.html

Quote Norovirus is a very contagious virus. You can get norovirus from an infected person, contaminated food or water, or by touching contaminated surfaces. The virus causes your stomach or intestines or both to get inflamed (acute gastroenteritis). This leads you to have stomach pain, nausea, and diarrhea and to throw up.

Anyone can be infected with norovirus and get sick. Also, you can have norovirus illness many times in your life. Norovirus illness can be serious, especially for young children and older adults.

Norovirus is the most common cause of acute gastroenteritis in the United States. Each year, it causes 19-21 million illnesses and contributes to 56,000-71,000 hospitalizations and 570-800 deaths. Norovirus is also the most common cause of foodborne-disease outbreaks in the United States.

The best way to help prevent norovirus is to practice proper hand washing and general cleanliness.

Unquote

This is also from the CDC WEB site: http://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/preventing-infection.html

Quote There is no vaccine to prevent norovirus infection, but research is being done in this area.

Practice proper hand hygiene

Wash your hands carefully with soap and water—

•especially after using the toilet and changing diapers, and

•always before eating, preparing, or handling food.

Close-up of a pair of human hands washing with soapNoroviruses can be found in your vomit or stool even before you start feeling sick. The virus can stay in your stool for 2 weeks or more after you feel better. So, it is important to continue washing your hands often during this time.

Alcohol-based hand sanitizers can be used in addition to hand washing. But, they should not be used as a substitute for washing with soap and water. See “Handwashing: Clean Hands Save Lives.”Unquote

/SIZE]

I bolded your sentence which you quote.. "alcohol-based hand sanitizer can help reduce germs! " These are not a substitute for soap & water!

 

It does not say it will prevent Noro which is what Sail was trying to say..

 

On cruise ships we have good ole soap & water & many think that using the hand sanitizer instead of soap & water will prevent Noro..It does not!! This thread is about Noro, not bacteria which Anti=Bacterial Sanitizers Help REDUCE ! ..[

 

I also quote from the CDC WEB site: http://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/about/overview.html

 

Quote Norovirus is a very contagious virus. You can get norovirus from an infected person, contaminated food or water, or by touching contaminated surfaces. The virus causes your stomach or intestines or both to get inflamed (acute gastroenteritis). This leads you to have stomach pain, nausea, and diarrhea and to throw up.

 

Anyone can be infected with norovirus and get sick. Also, you can have norovirus illness many times in your life. Norovirus illness can be serious, especially for young children and older adults.

 

Norovirus is the most common cause of acute gastroenteritis in the United States. Each year, it causes 19-21 million illnesses and contributes to 56,000-71,000 hospitalizations and 570-800 deaths. Norovirus is also the most common cause of foodborne-disease outbreaks in the United States.

 

The best way to help prevent norovirus is to practice proper hand washing and general cleanliness.

Unquote

 

This is also from the CDC WEB site: http://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/preventing-infection.html

 

 

Quote There is no vaccine to prevent norovirus infection, but research is being done in this area.

 

Practice proper hand hygiene

 

Wash your hands carefully with soap and water—

•especially after using the toilet and changing diapers, and

•always before eating, preparing, or handling food.

 

Close-up of a pair of human hands washing with soapNoroviruses can be found in your vomit or stool even before you start feeling sick. The virus can stay in your stool for 2 weeks or more after you feel better. So, it is important to continue washing your hands often during this time.

 

Alcohol-based hand sanitizers can be used in addition to hand washing. But, they should not be used as a substitute for washing with soap and water. See “Handwashing: Clean Hands Save Lives.”Unquote

/SIZE]

Serendipity,

Both you and Sails are correct.

Prior to seeing my patients . I always washed throughly with actual soap and water for several minutes and then place gloves on. Now I am retired, and still practice this. We have been on a lot of Code Reds and make it through fine!

Never touch your face with your hands, at the same time your nasal passages with the mucosa is a place easily able to contract air borne viruses.

Placing a small amount with a Q Tip of neosporine inside your nasal passages

Helps. We do that on the planes when we travel. Believe it or not one of our airline stewards told me about that! Interesting.

Denise:)

Nobody is suggesting that people do not wash their hands but rather that they augment this with the use of the sanitizers provided. Recommending avoiding sanitizers is irresponsible and is not based upon any meaningful evidence. Those that say that alcohol based sanitizers will not kill germs, even many viruses, are just misreading the evidence that is there. They are quite effective when used correctly but even then are not an absolute barrier.

The advice by the CDC also runs a little contrary to the World Health Organization, whose current guidelines take into account real life practices rather than ideal scenarios. Hand washing certainly helps but research shows

that compliance with hand washing, even after the bathroom, ranges at best into the mid 80% range and in some studies as low as in the 35% range. Men are always shown to have lower compliance rates than women, which should cause all of us men to hold our heads in shame.Those figures include ANY attempts at hand washing ( i.e. even just a splash and a few seconds under the running water. When you look at the rates of "effective hand washing we get even lower. Even in hospitals the rates of effective hand washing are only in the mid 60's percentage wise, with the worst compliance being with physicians.

So to rely on hand washing alone and to avoid the supplementary measures such as alcohol based sanitizers ( which Purell is by the way and at a percentage of greater than 60% ethanol... the recommended minimum) is based upon a misconception at best.

The World Heath Organization, has in my opinion, done a stellar job in developing excellent guidelines. For those who want to read all 270 pages ( because some seem to like to go direct to the source) please feel free.

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2009/9789241597906_eng.pdf?ua=1

Just out of interest though they have recommended alcohol based sanitizers in preference to hand washing alone for health care workers they recommend it INSTEAD of hand washing ( except where there is visible soiling of the hands) , primarily because the compliance rate is far higher and, therefore, the program is more effective.

Of course people will choose to do what they will. I know that I am interested in protecting myself and I will wash and use sanitizers.

Just another note, quoted direct from WHO ( because some seem to like that too ).

"The virus can spread in food or water or from person to person; it is highly infectious and in an outbreak on a cruise ship, more than 80% of the passengers can be affected. To prevent or reduce outbreaks of gastroenteritis caused by norovirus, ships are enhancing food and water sanitation measures and disinfection of surfaces; more ships are providing hand gel dispensers at strategic locations throughout the ship and passengers and crew are urged to use them. Some cruise companies ask that those who present with gastrointestinal symptoms at on-board medical centres be put into isolation until at least 24 h after their last symptoms, and some ships also isolate asymptomatic contacts for 24 h."

Norovirus is not airborne and you cannot catch it by breathing. You can catch it if you happen to inhale/ingest liquid vomit splashes when an individual near you throws up, which is where the airborne myth arises I believe. And isolation only partly works because an individual can be contagious for up to 24 hours BEFORE symptoms appear.

As a final note I am rethinking whether a cruise was ever a good idea but perhaps if I could find one with a 100% female passenger manifest, with mainly nurses and no physicians ( oh and nobody from Chicago...... Chicago had the lowest compliance rates for hand washing among a recent study of major centres). Now if I find that cruise maybe I should book. Well if Mrs Fizzer will let me.;)

 

 

 

As a final note I am rethinking whether a cruise was ever a good idea but perhaps if I could find one with a 100% female passenger manifest, with mainly nurses and no physicians ( oh and nobody from Chicago...... Chicago had the lowest compliance rates for hand washing among a recent study of major centres). Now if I find that cruise maybe I should book. Well if Mrs Fizzer will let me.;)

From another article:

"In 2013, there were 4 norovirus outbreaks on cruise ships departing from U.S. ports involving a total of 834 passengers. To put that into perspective, 10.1 million passengers embarked on CLIA member cruise ships from a U.S. port in 2013 so this figure represents approximately eight one-thousandths of one percent (0.008%) of passengers. By contrast, the CDC reports there are up to 20 million norovirus cases in a typical year in the United States. Americans have a 1 in 15 chance of getting norovirus on land each year, compared to a 1 in 12,000 chance on a cruise."

Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer chances.

Placing a small amount with a Q Tip of neosporine inside your nasal passages

Helps.

There is no evidence that Neosporin or any of its active ingredients is effective against Norovirus or any other virus. However, there is some evidence that some of the ingredients can promote antibiotic-resistant bacteria.

From another article:

 

"In 2013, there were 4 norovirus outbreaks on cruise ships departing from U.S. ports involving a total of 834 passengers. To put that into perspective, 10.1 million passengers embarked on CLIA member cruise ships from a U.S. port in 2013 so this figure represents approximately eight one-thousandths of one percent (0.008%) of passengers. By contrast, the CDC reports there are up to 20 million norovirus cases in a typical year in the United States. Americans have a 1 in 15 chance of getting norovirus on land each year, compared to a 1 in 12,000 chance on a cruise."

 

Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer chances.

Thanks for the reassurance. I'm still looking for an all female cruise though ( except for me of course). Then it will be 100% non tux and that one can be put to bed too.:D

I think there is some confusion going on between alcohol based hand sanitizers, and "antibacterial" soaps. Alcohol based hand sanitizers are somewhat effective, and better than nothing, but they have to be used properly, meaning a light coating over the entire hand, and allowed to dry, not wiped off.

"Antibacterial" soaps usually contain triclosan or something similar. While these are effective in hospital use when used according to established protocol (much higher concentration, and required contact time around 2 to 5 minutes), their use in soaps sold for the home at much lower concentration and contact time typically measured in seconds, all they achieve is to promote antibacterial resistance, and a false sense of more cleanliness than plain soap.

I normally pack Clorox wipes & white vinegar in zip lock bags, but we also drive to the port, & take it in our hand luggage..

IMO both white vinegar &/or the Clorox wipes are both good disinfectants for phones, door handles , remotes, sinks, faucets, counter tops etc.. At Home I use Clorox & water for countertops etc..My Best Friends call me the "Queen of Bleach" only because I have more ruined clothes from bleach spots on them..LOL

When I was young, my Mother swore by FelsNaptha soap & used it for everything..

I think Sail is right, I use anti-bacterial Dial to shower.. It probably does more harm than good, but can't get myself to use the FelsNaptha..LOL /SIZE]

I think there is some confusion going on between alcohol based hand sanitizers, and "antibacterial" soaps. Alcohol based hand sanitizers are somewhat effective, and better than nothing, but they have to be used properly, meaning a light coating over the entire hand, and allowed to dry, not wiped off.

 

"Antibacterial" soaps usually contain triclosan or something similar. While these are effective in hospital use when used according to established protocol (much higher concentration, and required contact time around 2 to 5 minutes), their use in soaps sold for the home at much lower concentration and contact time typically measured in seconds, all they achieve is to promote antibacterial resistance, and a false sense of more cleanliness than plain soap.

When I had my Hip operation, my Surgeon had me shower both the night before & the morning of the operation with a special anti-bacterial soap.. I had to leave it on my bod for a certain amount of time (forget how much time) before rinsing & lightly towel drying..

Will the media ever grow tired of reporting these occurrences?

It's not even news anymore.

I bolded your sentence which you quote.. "alcohol-based hand sanitizer can help reduce germs! " These are not a substitute for soap & water!

 

It does not say it will prevent Noro which is what Sail was trying to say..

 

On cruise ships we have good ole soap & water & many think that using the hand sanitizer instead of soap & water will prevent Noro..It does not!! This thread is about Noro, not bacteria which Anti=Bacterial Sanitizers Help REDUCE ! ..[

 

I also quote from the CDC WEB site: http://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/about/overview.html

 

Quote Norovirus is a very contagious virus. You can get norovirus from an infected person, contaminated food or water, or by touching contaminated surfaces. The virus causes your stomach or intestines or both to get inflamed (acute gastroenteritis). This leads you to have stomach pain, nausea, and diarrhea and to throw up.

 

Anyone can be infected with norovirus and get sick. Also, you can have norovirus illness many times in your life. Norovirus illness can be serious, especially for young children and older adults.

 

Norovirus is the most common cause of acute gastroenteritis in the United States. Each year, it causes 19-21 million illnesses and contributes to 56,000-71,000 hospitalizations and 570-800 deaths. Norovirus is also the most common cause of foodborne-disease outbreaks in the United States.

 

The best way to help prevent norovirus is to practice proper hand washing and general cleanliness.

Unquote

 

This is also from the CDC WEB site: http://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/preventing-infection.html

 

 

Quote There is no vaccine to prevent norovirus infection, but research is being done in this area.

 

Practice proper hand hygiene

 

Wash your hands carefully with soap and water—

•especially after using the toilet and changing diapers, and

•always before eating, preparing, or handling food.

 

Close-up of a pair of human hands washing with soapNoroviruses can be found in your vomit or stool even before you start feeling sick. The virus can stay in your stool for 2 weeks or more after you feel better. So, it is important to continue washing your hands often during this time.

 

Alcohol-based hand sanitizers can be used in addition to hand washing. But, they should not be used as a substitute for washing with soap and water. See “Handwashing: Clean Hands Save Lives.”Unquote

/SIZE]

^^ Yes. :)

Serendipity,

 

Both you and Sails are correct.

Prior to seeing my patients . I always washed throughly with actual soap and water for several minutes and then place gloves on. Now I am retired, and still practice this. We have been on a lot of Code Reds and make it through fine!

Never touch your face with your hands, at the same time your nasal passages with the mucosa is a place easily able to contract air borne viruses.

Placing a small amount with a Q Tip of neosporine inside your nasal passages

Helps. We do that on the planes when we travel. Believe it or not one of our airline stewards told me about that! Interesting.

Denise:)

It is only anecdotal on my part but I always got a cold whenever I flew and my DH often did as well. Some years ago, we started using Neosporine inside our nasal passages and we never got another airplane acquired cold again. I cannot prove that made the different but it certainly did not hurt. I'll continue to use it when I fly.

^^ Yes. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is only anecdotal on my part but I always got a cold whenever I flew and my DH often did as well. Some years ago, we started using Neosporine inside our nasal passages and we never got another airplane acquired cold again. I cannot prove that made the different but it certainly did not hurt. I'll continue to use it when I fly.

 

I will certainly try this next time we fly. Last winter, DH had a bad cold 3 days after we arrived by plane in FLorida, and then I caught it from him. This seems like an easy enough thing to do.

Wash your hands, wash your hands, wash your hands.

Where did 'neuro-virus' come from? Bad enough gastrointestinal but hope we don't now have to worry about neurologic illness. :eek:

 

The voice of reason and sensibility! We've been on many cruises and so far (knock on a steel bulkhead) hand washing has kept us virus free. I just wish everyone would not panic and just listen to this very simple advice.

Thanks Sail!!!

I will certainly try this next time we fly. Last winter, DH had a bad cold 3 days after we arrived by plane in FLorida, and then I caught it from him. This seems like an easy enough thing to do.

Easy enough, and totally ineffective. Putting antibacterial ointment up your nose provides no protection from any viral infection.

^^ Yes. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is only anecdotal on my part but I always got a cold whenever I flew and my DH often did as well. Some years ago, we started using Neosporine inside our nasal passages and we never got another airplane acquired cold again. I cannot prove that made the different but it certainly did not hurt. I'll continue to use it when I fly.

 

It just helps to keep moisture inside your nasal passages. Since with the high altitude and cabin pressure you have a tendency to have your nasal passages get dry. I always use a saline solution of salt water spray also which helps.

Your nasal passages are the gate way to air borne viruses so it helps to have a barrier. Now I am not saying it keeps you from getting a cold etc, but it does not hurt.

Anything that you can do to change the enviroment is a plus, especially on a plane. Who wants to get a cold, etc on a wonderful vacation/holiday! So prevention is a plus.

Denise:)

Sorry did not mean to get off the topic originally!

Many years ago, my internist told us to spray saline nasal spray repeatedly while flying. Our last several flights, it got packed in the carry on and then put in the overhead bin, so not easily accessible and we didn't use it.

Many years ago, my internist told us to spray saline nasal spray repeatedly while flying. Our last several flights, it got packed in the carry on and then put in the overhead bin, so not easily accessible and we didn't use it.

Originally Posted by DeeniEncinitas View Post

Serendipity,

Both you and Sails are correct.

Prior to seeing my patients . I always washed throughly with actual soap and water for several minutes and then place gloves on. Now I am retired, and still practice this. We have been on a lot of Code Reds and make it through fine!

Never touch your face with your hands, at the same time your nasal passages with the mucosa is a place easily able to contract air borne viruses.

Placing a small amount with a Q Tip of neosporine inside your nasal passages

Helps. We do that on the planes when we travel. Believe it or not one of our airline stewards told me about that! Interesting.

Denise

Saline is a good choice for on the plane!

Denise :)

Vaseline would work just as well as Neosporin, and not contribute to the problem of bacterial resistance.

Vaseline would work just as well as Neosporin, and not contribute to the problem of bacterial resistance.

This likely is a very good suggestion.

I had to mess with success though. :eek: So far, my current practice has served me well and I don't want the first time I substitute Vaseline to be the time I get a cold after flying.

Vaseline would work just as well as Neosporin, and not contribute to the problem of bacterial resistance.

But how would that stop a cold which is a viral infection, not a bacterial infection? Realize that some virus infections cannot be spread in the air, but this is a quote about the "Common Cold Infection" from the Consumer version of the Merck Manual: http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/infections/viral-infections/common-cold

Quote Colds spread mainly when people’s hands come in contact with nasal secretions from an infected person. These secretions contain cold viruses. When people then touch their mouth, nose, or eyes, the viruses gain entry to the body and cause a cold. Less often, colds are spread when people breathe air containing droplets that were coughed or sneezed out by an infected person. A cold is most contagious during the first 1 or 2 days after symptoms develop.. Unquote