havoc315

For those condemning OP for daring to share a mocktail from their FAS package with their 3rd adult, have you ever driven 56mph in a 55mph zone? There is a big real-life difference between, over a week long cruise, sharing 3-4 mocktails and 1-2 glasses of wine, versus 1 person getting FAS and sharing 5-10 cocktails per day. I’m not suggesting rules should be broken. But at the same time, not every rule is inflexible, written in stone, punishable by death.

Now the more important question, how are the shows? I was disappointed when NCL cancelled Swing on the Gem (and other shows on other ships). Feels like NCL is really going cheap on the entertainment.

I know nothing about Sixthman Charter cruises. Sounds like you're on one of the somewhat older ships that lack a Haven restaurant. In those ships, breakfast and lunch are served in Cagney's or Moderno. I wouldn't say the food quality is mind blowing, it is a good 1-2 steps better than the main dining room, and yes -- quieter, better service.

Sorry, I had no intent to argue or debate with you. And my discussion was more against those who treat it like, "I'm already paying so much for the cruise, why should I tack on even more?" So in setting the number that you are comfortable with: Remember that these workers are drastically underpaid, come from places where American poverty looks pretty rich to them, and they are relying on tips as their compensation.

Six or half-dozen, still the same: The gratuities are not truly completely voluntary -- Technically they are, you can refuse to give them. But they are the compensation that is relied upon. Sure, it might be better if they were just paid a real wage, and didn't rely on the tips. But then customers wouldn't be happy when cruise fares spiked up by 20%.

You are ultrarich by global standards, ultra-rich compared to the people who are serving you on the cruise ship. Much of the crew comes from places where wages are $3 per hour or less --- The average global household income is $12,000 per year. Some of the crew comes from countries where the average household income is under $2,000 per year. So yes, if you earn more than $12,000 per year: Then you're above-average. By global standards, if you can afford any real vacation, then you're rich. When considering the tips, that's an important consideration -- While most of us may not feel rich, that's a relative term. Every single person who booked a suite is ultra-rich under the standards of where most of the crew come from. About 30% of all cruise crew comes from the Philippines -- where the average wage is $330 per month, or $4,000 per year. So if the average wage is $4,000 per year -- Then what's rich to this crew member? If $4,000 per year is middle class where they come from, then what's rich?

It's not about "value added" -- It's an understanding that tipping is the compensation model. When I go to a restaurant, I tip the waiter 20% for purely expected service. It's the expectation for expected service. I'd tip more if they added additional value. Without the room stewards, your cabin wouldn't get cleaned -- A clean room adds a LOT of value. Without bartenders, you wouldn't be able to get a drink -- That adds a LOT of value. Without waiters, you'd have to get all your food at the buffet -- That adds a LOT of value. So break it down -- He said $200 for the butler -- That's $29 per day -- That's not exactly a huge tip. Let's say the butler brought you afternoon snacks, escorted you off the ship to tender, brought your coffee in the morning, and held your seats in the theater in the evening -- Surely those things add $29 in value.

Let's think about how little or how much that $750 really is for 15 nights. Guest/crew ratio on NCL ships is about 2:1. Let's assume about half the crew participates in the tip pool (room stewards, waiters, busboys, bartenders) --- Then it would be $1500 worth of tips per crew member, for 15 days, or $3,000 for a month. So even if a crew member was working 12 months straight, no days/weeks/months off, it's only $36,000 in tips. That's NOT a lot. But let's remember, crew can't work for 12 months like they work for 15 days -- They don't get days off, they are generally working more than 8 hour days. So let's really look at it on a daily basis: Assuming again, the 4:1 ratio -- 4 guests tipping per tip-receiving crew member: That's $100 in tips per crew member that relies on tips. These are crew members making only $10 to $15 per active hour -- So maybe tips gets them up to $20 to $30 per hour. Of course, the crew members are really giving up 24 hours per day -- sleeping in cramped quarters (they don't exactly get Verandah suites). So even with tips, in that sense, these crew members are earning less than $10 per hour. So yes, out of that $750 --- That's not nearly enough to also include the butler and concierge.

I’d never tell someone else what they should tip, but I’d encourage people to give the following considerations: - Cruise lines specifically avoid American and European labor laws. Salaries are far below “minimum wage.” Butlers are literally working 24/7 for months at a time, grabbing a few hours of sleep in a cramped space below deck. Many have families they are away from — because the tips from cruises is prospectively far better in one than they can make in their home country. - You paid a significant amount for a suite. When ordering food in a restaurant, you’d tip 15-25%. So do consider how much you’re paying for the cruise, and how the butler and concierge staff are an integral part of your elevated suite experience. If you can afford $x for a suite, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to ask yourself to tip another 3%-10%. -Do consider the size of your party and length of your cruise. A family of 5 on a 14-day cruise should tip significantly more than a couple on a 3-night cruise. -Do consider how much you’ve used their services— including the things done automatically such as bringing afternoon snacks, escorting you on and off the ship. Their generally being available and checking up on you is worth some consideration. Most of all, remember that the cruise is a luxury you purchased, a luxury that the butlers would never be able to afford for themselves. In global terms, compared to the staff serving you, you’re rich. They are working hours and wages that would be illegal in the US and Europe, to provide for your luxury.

Not that your tips are prepaid for the dining room. As noted, Butler and Concierge are not included in the tip pool — they need to be tipped separately. Even if you don’t see yourself using the butler, they are doing things to make your trip better — they will be delivering snacks to your room every day. They are your main point of contact for most issues. The butlers and concierge are arranging your expedited disembarkation at ports, reserving your seats in the theater, etc. So they are deserving of a tip, even if a guest isn’t using their services a whole lot. (And certainly, a guest who uses them slot should tip more).

Well said. Yes, different people will place different value in different things. There are people who have the means to book suites, but stick to inside cabins because they don't see the value in higher accommodations. First question is always, "can the person afford it." Second question is, "will they think it's worth it." Thus, even to many people who can afford it (a small market), the Star class may not be worthwhile -- It's why RCL doesn't solely have a Star class, and also markets lesser suite classes. Particularly for luxury type products, the luxury buyer is often willing to pay more than "the sum of the parts" -- which makes it a lucrative profitable market. Look at First Class airfare -- often 10-20x the price of a coach ticket, for double the space, cocktails, and a better meal. In pure $$$, not worth 10-20x the price of coach ticket.

linked in his post above.

And I’m using your letter format for my next cruise!

That's always been the case. You'll hear widely divergent recommendations for the amount to tip. Very general considerations: The butlers are working night and day and do not participate in the automatic gratuity. They are also doing "invisible" things for you, so I'd recommend tipping even if you don't really utilize them --- and tipping more if you utilize their services a lot. And generally speaking, you'd want to tip the butler 2-4x what you tip the concierge. Finally, some people tip full/partial at the start of the cruise.

No. I’m saying that NCL does not offer some benefits that other cruise lines provide. And that there is a market for those benefits. And thus, providing those benefits would let them charge more. You’re the one who is obsessed with RCL and a $20,000 number. I actually discussed how, if benefits cost NCL $100, they would be worthwhile to NCL if it allowed them to charge $101 more. (You also don’t understand luxury travel, travelers willing to pay more for inclusiveness rather than having to pay for add-ons). So I’ll speak slow in case you hurt your head in that brick wall — “providing more benefits to the top suites would increase demand, and thereby let them charge higher prices.” Not sure why such a simple concept is so hard to understand.

From their faq: Note: There are reports of people being alllowed to order multiple appetizers or desserts but only 1 entree. Also inconsistent reports from La Cuncina on whether pizza can count as an app or entree.

??? Simple, NCL does not offer those same inclusive benefits built into the cabin price. That’s been stated, many many many times.

April is well within 120 days, so I’d be curious when it sold out. (The whole business model is to sell out every cruise even if you need to drastically cut prices). That the August 2024 cruise is already sold out, I’d expect NCL to raise prices on the corresponding voyage next year.

Yes and no. It’s more advanced Econ. Cruise lines, like airlines, use differential pricing. The cost of a guest sailing in an inside cabin is the same, to the cruise line, as a guest in an ocean view cabin. Different people are willing to pay different prices, so the cruise lines create segmentation so that people willing to pay more, can pay more. So let’s say a ship has 10 Haven suites. If they priced them at $10,000 each…. And all 10 sold 6-12 months before the cruise, they may have priced them too low. (NCL gets $100,000). there might be 8 people willing to pay $12,000… but 10 people willing to pay $10,000 or less. So if they start the price at $12,000.. sell 8 suites at that price. At the 120 day mark, they drop the price to $10,000– sell the remaining 2 suites. Instead of $100,000… NCL got $116,000. So they use that 120 day final payment window to create differentiation in the market. They have different cabin categories, partially to get more money from people willing to pay more. (Many consumers will book with a budget in mind, and then book the cabin category that matches their budget.) With all categories, there isn’t much danger in starting prices too high, as they can always drop them. But if you generate more demand, you’ll sustain higher prices. In that sense, a cruise ship is a perfect Econ 101 model. There is a set supply of cabins. Since the supply does not change on any given cruise— the market price is purely set by demand. Increase demand, you’ll increase the price.

I never said it was worth it to me. I said it was worth it to SOMEONE, as those rooms are getting booked. Thus, objectively the market exists. Whether it’s worth it TO ME or not is irrelevant. Whether it’s worth it TO YOU is irrelevant. The only question is: is it worth it to enough people to sell it. RCL shows the answer is yes. Other luxury cruise lines show the answer is yes.

Does not justify it to you. That’s your subjective personal answer. Objectively, we know there are people it does appeal to, that are willing to pay more. Otherwise, RCL wouldn’t be selling those suites. You’re confusing your personal opinion to the market as a whole. Most people wouldn’t buy a Rolls Royce… does that mean Rolls Royce should just stop making cars? No, because a market exists for Rolls Royce. Just as a market exists for large cruise ships to offer a limited number of luxury level accommodations. You can say nothing justifies RCC pricing. They don’t need to justify anything. The justification is, “is there a consumer willing to buy it.” Now here is what neither of us know, if they added a small investment in their highest level of cabins, would it allow them to charge even more than the costs. Say, the “cost” to NCL of making Deluxe Owner’s Suites *truly* all-inclusive — say that actual cost to NCL is $100 per night… would it then allow them to charge guests an extra $101 or more. If so, then they are missing out by failing to do it. My prediction: Within 3 years, NCL offers some sort of Haven-plus/Star class type level of accommodation, something with more perks than current Haven rooms. (ps… Michelin gives a maximum of 3 stars. )

You answered your own questioned: "I'm struggling to understand what RCC is offering for that Star class to justify 2x the price of a Haven room" While you might not find the extra benefits worth the extra cost, obviously there are customers who do. NCL is missing out on those customers, or unable to charge the same amount. (And offering it on separate brands is entirely irrelevant -- Those luxury brands don't have some of the advantages of a large ship -- As your own statement about Star suites proves, there is a market for that type of service and inclusivity on large ships).

lol, glad we kept it civil and are seeing eye to eye. It's been a few years since I sailed NCL Haven, but have a Garden Villa trip coming up. NCL does give their Garden Villas and Owner's Suites a tiny bit more than the other suites. But not a true "Star class" or "Mega Rock Star" class, etc. Now, are they losing some customers to other lines because of those benefits? I don't know. From a guest perspective, a guest paying $20,000 to $30,000 for a cabin may rather have a truly all inclusive trip for $20,200 to $30,200, rather than a $20,000 to $30,000 trip where you keep facing extra charges.

We know they aren't selling the suites for $1.. and they aren't getting $50,000 per night either. Those exaggerated numbers demonstrate the point --- Equally valid to say that 100% booking at $500 is not the same as 100% booking at $501. The 100% tells you nothing, it's the rate they are booking at. And YES -- The Star Class is far beyond anything NCL offers!!! AND THAT'S THE WHOLE ISSUE. Why doesn't NCL offer it? How many potential customers is NCL Haven losing to RCL Star class? You figured it out --- That's the WHOLE POINT. NCL is not keeping up with offerings like Star Class. 10-15 years ago, Haven suites were a superior offering to anything on RCL, that has now changed. Haven has not kept up! It wouldn't exactly be hard to NCL to match Star class --- Improve the butler/suite ratio, include specialty dining and alcohol, include gratuities and top internet package.

That's what is difficult to tell without going through piles of data, instead relying on anecdote -- To what degree are they discounting more or less than the past. And to what extent is it because of recovery from Covid, better price analysis from the start, etc.