I need some serious advice!!

Hi everyone. I'm trying to help my parents with a HAL situation and thought I'd come to my trusty RCCL board for input. This is really long, and I apologize in advance :)

Earlier this year my parents took a European cruise on HAL. They encountered some significant problems during their cruise.

My mom got out of bed to use the restroom and stepped onto a sopping wet floor. Raw sewage had flooded their stateroom. They called for help, and stood in the hallway (in their pajamas, after midnight, for more than an hour until help arrived). Their luggage, which had been stored under their bed, was ruined. They were moved to an empty cabin which had no air conditioning or telephone service for the duration of the cruise. The a/c was definitely an issue, and the phone was also an issue, as they were traveling with another couple and couldn't keep in contact.

They also encountered some insignificant problems. For Mother's Day/Father's Day, I had purchased a wine card for my mom and dinner for two at the Pinnacle Grill for my dad. I had informed my mom of my dad's gift, and my dad of my mom's. I'm glad I did, because the gifts were never delivered to their cabin. On the fourth day of the cruise, they realized the problem and visited customer service to sort it out. If they hadn't known about the gifts, they would never have received the items I paid for.

So, they returned from their trip and told me about their issues. I suggested they write a letter to the president of HAL, and they did. They received a very nice letter in return. In this letter the rep said that they had verified that all of the issues had occurred. They offered an apology and an credit of $2580 pp toward a future sailing.

Fast forward - My parents booked another European cruise for 2009. They booked an inside cabin with a fare of $3999 pp. They called HAL to apply the credit, and were told that the letter had a typo and it should have read $250 pp, not $2580 pp. Given that they had been offered a substantial cruise credit, they're pretty upset that it is now being effectively rescinded. They're currently sailing on the Jewel of the Seas (and loving it!!), so I told them I'd try to get this sorted out while they were gone.

I called Clark Howard's office (a big consumer advocate in Atlanta) and was told that they should go to small claims court. They said that any judge would side with my parents, given that they have a signed letter of credit on HAL letterhead. I checked with a friend who's an attorney, and she told me that this would be considered breach of contract. I've called the HAL rep three times over the past week and a half, and never received a return phone call. I called again today and spoke to a different rep. He was very nice, but he refused to offer the original letter, and said that he wasn't allowed to give me a contact in their legal dept. He then offered a 'four category upgrade'. I told him that I'd communicate his offer to my parents and get back to him.

As soon as we got off the phone, I looked up the deck plans. A four category upgrade is an interior to interior upgrade. I called him back and left him a message saying 'no deal'. He called me back within minutes and offered an eight category upgrade, which is an oceanview on deck two. I asked for a balcony, and he said he couldn't do that. I told him I'd get back to him. The difference in cruise fare from their original booking is $830pp.

What would you do? Just to make it clear, if my parents had originally received a letter offering an apology and a $250pp credit, they would have been fine. It's just that they were offered $2580, and it just doesn't seem right for a cruise line to just say 'Oops, we made a mistake' and offer 10% of the original credit.

Thanks for any input!

Tricia

I think its expensive to hire a lawyer and probably not worth the frustration. I had some things transpire on my Ike cruise like the purser's desk just hanging up on you if you called from the cabin when they got so busy that I decided to try out another cruise line and booked on the QM2 to try out their service.

Id just find another cruiseline. If your parents really dont care, and you turned down the upgrade on their behalf?? Id have tried for a good upgrade for my parents and taken their best offer if the cruise is already underway. Once it returns the upgrade is no good.

Try something else, maybe the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. If not you havent lost anything. I wouldnt hire a lawyer, but I may be in the minority on that one, but I like my life simple.

I have to agree--you're going to spend more fighting this than you will ever get out of it!

Yes--the cruiseline should have done more (IMO) but what's done is done...They should just take their money (and their recommendations) elsewhere.

I would fight it. Clark Howard is a major cheapskate (I am too :) ) And, he would not have told them to take it to court unless he thought it was worth it. It's a $4660 difference! (the $2580pp - $250pp) With such a sure case, it may be easy to find a lawyer that will do it. Or possibly, you could do it yourself. It sounds like you are a talk radio listener, and there is another guy on the radio, a lawyer by the name of Bill Handel who frequently tells people that they can fight it on their own. Could your friend who is an attorney help you out with how to proceed? I would definitely fight it. You never know...they may settle as soon as they realize that you are serious enough about this to take them to court.

Sorry your parents had this experience.

IMO....if they have a signed letter stating $2280. pp, it should be honored...... HAL made the blunder not your parents. I agree it would cost more in court and attorney fees.

Hope it gets resolved....please keep is posted!

***

If I read it correctly the OP was told to go to "Small Claims Court" and therefore there is only a minimal fee for that court. I'd say go for it as you don't need an attorney to fight your case. Just present the facts and let the Judge decide.

If you call HAL and tell them you're willing to take them to court on this, I'm pretty sure they'd honor their first statement, being that they wouldn't want any negative publicity or have to waste their own time.

Like others have said, I think you could definitely fight this without an attorney being you have a signed letter from them stating compensation/acknowledgement of problems. Good luck and do keep us posted!

If I read it correctly the OP was told to go to "Small Claims Court" and therefore there is only a minimal fee for that court. I'd say go for it as you don't need an attorney to fight your case. Just present the facts and let the Judge decide.

I think Iv read you have to take it to court where the main office is of the cruiseline, for instance with RCL Miami. Depending on where you live and if Carnival can get postponements and we were required to meet first to see about negotiating a compromise before we were allowed to go into court (I did take someone to small claims, mostly because he said "go ahead and take me to court, after promising to help undo the damage he caused to my condo when he flooded me from above). Then he appealed it so we had to go up to the main court in the jurisdiction, for us we moved from Boca Raton to West Palm Beach in the Florida courts. I did eventually win the judgement, but its way harder than most folks think it will be.

Have you considered contacting the consumer advocate of your local television station? Perhaps they'd find it an interesting case to tackle.

Just out of curiosity, how many days is this cruise that the fare is $3999 a person for an inside cabin? Did this include airfare hotels and transfers? Maybe you should encourage them to try another cruise line.

If you are considering legal options, you should not be discussing it on these boards.

Suing them in small claims court probably won't work because you can't get personal jurisdiction over HAL, unless you live in Florida. You might want to contact the Consumerist and/or look for e-mail contacts online for higher ups at HAL, write to them and tell your story. The more people who know about it, the more HAL will want to reduce the damage.

I am wondering where the 2580 came from -- was that the cost of the original cruise, the cost of one person's share? When I read it, I said, WOW! Did it always seem to be "off" to you? Now if that was 50% of their original cost, maybe I could understand that it did not seem excessive. Was their luggage covered by insurance, or was this in part compensation for that? In all the times I have read these boards, I have never seen compensation that high. So my point is -- what do you and your parents think is usual and customary in this situation, or what do you think is fair? I would not make my determination strictly on an error -- what if the error had been 25800?

Suing would be an incredible hassle given jurisdiction problems if they are not in Florida, so if they are offering an OV PLUS the 250 credit pp, I think I'd take it. 3999pp for an inside seems awfully high to me unless it's a heck of a long cruise.

This is not legal advice, and should not be taken as such, but....

I note that HAL is wholly owned subsidiary of Carnival Corporation, which is a Panamanian corporation authorized to to business in Georgia. Which means it has a registered agent to accept service in Atlanta.

Holland America Line USA, Inc. cannot be sued (or do business) in Florida, because it is an inactive corporation, and has been inactive since it was acquired by carnival in 1989.

There is sometimes a confusion between personal jurisdiction and forum selection clauses contained in contracts.

A classic example of this is burger king corporation. Burger king does business in every state in the united states. They are, therefore, subject to service of process in every state. If you enter into a franchise contract with burger king, however, the contract will contain a clause that says that both parties agree that any lawsuit relating to the contract will be filed in Miami-Dade county, florida.

Similarly, most cruise contracts contain a forum selection clause that require any suit relating to the contract to be filed in Florida. That does not mean that courts in other states don't have jurisdiction over the cruise lines. Instead, it just means that if a person were to sue over their cruise contract, they would have to do it in florida.

If I received a letter similar to the one described by the OP in Georgia, and tried to make a reservation in Georgia that was not honored- meaning that the contract sued upon was the offer in the letter, rather than the unformed contract for carriage- I think I would try to sue in Georgia.

But that's just what I would do- it's not my advice to anyone.

If you call HAL and tell them you're willing to take them to court on this, I'm pretty sure they'd honor their first statement, being that they wouldn't want any negative publicity or have to waste their own time.

 

Like others have said, I think you could definitely fight this without an attorney being you have a signed letter from them stating compensation/acknowledgement of problems. Good luck and do keep us posted!

Thanks - I will definitely keep you posted. I tried to talk to the legal department today, but the rep said he wasn't able to give me any contact info. I may need to do a little detective work!

I think Iv read you have to take it to court where the main office is of the cruiseline, for instance with RCL Miami. Depending on where you live and if Carnival can get postponements and we were required to meet first to see about negotiating a compromise before we were allowed to go into court (I did take someone to small claims, mostly because he said "go ahead and take me to court, after promising to help undo the damage he caused to my condo when he flooded me from above). Then he appealed it so we had to go up to the main court in the jurisdiction, for us we moved from Boca Raton to West Palm Beach in the Florida courts. I did eventually win the judgement, but its way harder than most folks think it will be.

Thanks for your info. That would be difficult, as Holland America is based in Seattle and my parents are in Atlanta. Definitely something to keep in mind. Thanks.

Have you considered contacting the consumer advocate of your local television station? Perhaps they'd find it an interesting case to tackle.

Clark Howard's office suggested the same thing. I'll have to think about that. I don't really like the idea of being the 'squeaky wheel'. I was hoping they'd agree to honor their letter (typo or not), but it looks like that's not the case.

Just out of curiosity, how many days is this cruise that the fare is $3999 a person for an inside cabin? Did this include airfare hotels and transfers? Maybe you should encourage them to try another cruise line.

It's an 18-day 'Voyage of the Vikings' to some unusual ports including the Faroe Islands, Iceland, Greenland, and Newfoundland. That's why it's kind of hard for them to just switch to another line. My dad is sold on this itinerary. The fare is for cruise only. The balcony cabins start at $7,599pp!!!

I am wondering where the 2580 came from -- was that the cost of the original cruise, the cost of one person's share? When I read it, I said, WOW! Did it always seem to be "off" to you? Now if that was 50% of their original cost, maybe I could understand that it did not seem excessive. Was their luggage covered by insurance, or was this in part compensation for that? In all the times I have read these boards, I have never seen compensation that high. So my point is -- what do you and your parents think is usual and customary in this situation, or what do you think is fair? I would not make my determination strictly on an error -- what if the error had been 25800?

 

Suing would be an incredible hassle given jurisdiction problems if they are not in Florida, so if they are offering an OV PLUS the 250 credit pp, I think I'd take it. 3999pp for an inside seems awfully high to me unless it's a heck of a long cruise.

It may have been a typo. I don't know what their original fare was; I think it was north of $2580pp. I can't speak for them, but I'm guessing that if they were originally offered an apology + $250 credit, they probably would have let it go and moved on (but not returned to HAL). But the letter said $2580, and that convinced my parents to give HAL another try. They've kind of left it in my hands, and I don't know what to do :(

This is not legal advice, and should not be taken as such, but....

 

I note that HAL is wholly owned subsidiary of Carnival Corporation, which is a Panamanian corporation authorized to to business in Georgia. Which means it has a registered agent to accept service in Atlanta.

 

Holland America Line USA, Inc. cannot be sued (or do business) in Florida, because it is an inactive corporation, and has been inactive since it was acquired by carnival in 1989.

 

There is sometimes a confusion between personal jurisdiction and forum selection clauses contained in contracts.

 

A classic example of this is burger king corporation. Burger king does business in every state in the united states. They are, therefore, subject to service of process in every state. If you enter into a franchise contract with burger king, however, the contract will contain a clause that says that both parties agree that any lawsuit relating to the contract will be filed in Miami-Dade county, florida.

 

Similarly, most cruise contracts contain a forum selection clause that require any suit relating to the contract to be filed in Florida. That does not mean that courts in other states don't have jurisdiction over the cruise lines. Instead, it just means that if a person were to sue over their cruise contract, they would have to do it in florida.

 

If I received a letter similar to the one described by the OP in Georgia, and tried to make a reservation in Georgia that was not honored- meaning that the contract sued upon was the offer in the letter, rather than the unformed contract for carriage- I think I would try to sue in Georgia.

 

But that's just what I would do- it's not my advice to anyone.

Wow - Thank you very much! Your explanation was very informative. I'm embarrassed to admit that I didn't even know HAL was a subsidiary of Carnival. I really appreciate your insight.

It is breach of contract plain and simple. If they decided to go forward and pursue this, I am very interested to see the outcome.

I hope it turns out in their favor..

This is not legal advice, and should not be taken as such, but....

 

I note that HAL is wholly owned subsidiary of Carnival Corporation, which is a Panamanian corporation authorized to to business in Georgia. Which means it has a registered agent to accept service in Atlanta.

 

Holland America Line USA, Inc. cannot be sued (or do business) in Florida, because it is an inactive corporation, and has been inactive since it was acquired by carnival in 1989.

 

There is sometimes a confusion between personal jurisdiction and forum selection clauses contained in contracts.

 

A classic example of this is burger king corporation. Burger king does business in every state in the united states. They are, therefore, subject to service of process in every state. If you enter into a franchise contract with burger king, however, the contract will contain a clause that says that both parties agree that any lawsuit relating to the contract will be filed in Miami-Dade county, florida.

 

Similarly, most cruise contracts contain a forum selection clause that require any suit relating to the contract to be filed in Florida. That does not mean that courts in other states don't have jurisdiction over the cruise lines. Instead, it just means that if a person were to sue over their cruise contract, they would have to do it in florida.

 

If I received a letter similar to the one described by the OP in Georgia, and tried to make a reservation in Georgia that was not honored- meaning that the contract sued upon was the offer in the letter, rather than the unformed contract for carriage- I think I would try to sue in Georgia.

 

But that's just what I would do- it's not my advice to anyone.

Do you mind me asking a question? If it were you, would you feel the case had enough merit to pursue it? If you don't want to answer, that's fine :)

On the one hand, $4,400 is a chunk of money in my world. On the other hand, litigation usually takes up a lot of time and causes a lot of irritation and stress.

If you don't mind putting some time and research into it, it might be worth your time to try. Without knowing anything about Georgia small claims court rules, my initial thought would be that a person with this size claim might be more satisfied trying to go at it by themself in small claims court than paying a lawyer a few thousand dollars to net a thousand dollars.

There's always the liklihood that a company will respond to a complaint with an offer to compromise. Even if the claim lacks any merit at all.

I would suggest that an annonymous internet message board is not a good place to obtain reliable legal advice. Your local court house probably has a "self-help" area- perhaps even with staff attorneys- that can give you more dependable guidance on how the courts work in your area.

I think its expensive to hire a lawyer and probably not worth the frustration.

Yes, it is. But that's the whole point of small claims court. You don't need a lawyer to take a case there. Filing a claim is pretty easy, and when your court date arrives just make sure you have your evidence in hand.

In actuality, though, I have a feeling HAL wouldn't let it go as far as an actual hearing. It's not worth it to them. Their legal department is tied up on far more important issues to mess with something like this. Once they see that you are serious, and are willing to fight for your credit, they will probably cave and just give it to you ... or perhaps be willing to give your parents the balcony cabin that you requested.

Blue skies ...

--rita

Was there a replacement for the luggage, ruined clothes and credit for the downgrade they recieved on the cruise? It is not as if a wave of ocean water washed into the room, it was their poor plumbing.

I think they had a nightmare scenerio, in one the early Eurodam cruises a cruise critic member had a similar situation and she mentioned she was taken care of, maybe it is worth going through those early posts or googling them and contacting her as to how it was resolved.

I know you are busy but I bet a few people may be interested in knowing that room number!

Good luck, I hope HAL realized the longer these situations go on the less the resolution is satisfactory.