comparison of per diem food cost per passenger

[owl61]

Is there a reliable source to discover the average per diem per passenger cost of food spent by each of the different cruise lines? I have seen references to this kind of per diem breakdown and wonder if the info is public. Is there much of a difference among the various mass market lines?

Edited November 26, 2009 by owl61

[klfrodo]

Trust me,,, I am NOT a reliable source. However, after using the search function and after reading may posts here on cruisecritic, it appears that due to the bulk buying ability of the mass market cruiselines, the average cost to feed each passenger is appoximatley less than $10 USD per day minus the labor costs of preparation and such.

[mr green]

I saw some numbers four or five years ago, the average was about $12.00 plus, or minus two, with one exception, NCL $7.20c.

I assume that this applied only to the main dining room/s and lido style foods.

 

john

[Philip217]

The numbers you are looking for are very carefully guarded secrets in the cruise industry. The cruise lines are even reluctant to give them to each other.

 

The numbers do vary quite a bit as well, depending on ship, itinerary, and time of year.

 

Here is a general break-down, per passenger, per day:

 

Seabourn, Silver Sea - $24 - 26 per day

Oceania, Regent - $18 - 20 per day

Celebrity, Princess - $12 - 15 per day

RCCL, HAL - $12 - 13 per day

Carnival - $8 - 10 per day

NCL - $7.50 - 8.50 per day

 

Bear in mind that itinerary has a lot to do with these numbers:

 

Flying tons of food from USA to a ship in Europe is very expensive.

European Cruisers have paid substantially more for a cruise and have higher expectations. Their menus are usually pricier.

 

Caribbean Cruisers generally pay far less for a cruise. Their expectations are generally lower, so menus carry less expensive items. Loading food in the Caribbean is usually far less expensive as well.

 

Alaska Cruises are generally pricier, people eat more there and spend more time in the restaurants. Shipping and loading are more expensive in Alaska. Menus are generally higher cost on these itineraries.

 

Transatlantic cruisers eat far more than those on a "regular" cruise. This pushes costs about 50% higher.

 

Cruises with more sea days have far higher food costs than cruises that are port-intensive. It seems that when cruisers are not going ashore, they are eating, eating, eating.

 

Most passengers gorge themselves for the first 3 or 4 days of their cruise. When they finally realise that they are eating themselves sick, they back off a bit and eat more normally. As a result, food costs on a 3 or 4 day cruise are far higher than on longer cruises.

 

Repositioning cruises usually attract the bargain hunters. The mass market cruise lines just wants to break even on fuel costs to get the ship from the old itinerary to the new one. Most of the higher priced items disappear from these menus to cut costs.

 

By the way, there will be a percentage of readers on this board who will say that these numbers are impossible. Next time you want to complain about food quality on a ship, think about how they are able to sell you such a low priced vacation..................

Edited November 26, 2009 by Philip217

[happy cruzer]

Thanks Philip, you always provide such good info.

 

I was a bit surprised to see how much RCCL spent. I might have guessed less than Carnival based on the menus.

 

Thanks again.

[smeyer418]

given that people complain about the food on every line I am somewhat surprised. Remember the big cost in food costs are in the preparation(the staff costs) not the food..

[pris993]

Over the years, we have cruised the Mediterranean and Europe, TAs, the Carribean, Hawaii, Mexico and Alaska. By far the lowest quality food in our experience was on cruises to Mexico.

[owl61]

The numbers you are looking for are very carefully guarded secrets in the cruise industry. The cruise lines are even reluctant to give them to each other.

 

The numbers do vary quite a bit as well, depending on ship, itinerary, and time of year.

Here is a general break-down, per passenger, per day:

Seabourn, Silver Sea - $24 - 26 per day

Oceania, Regent - $18 - 20 per day

Celebrity, Princess - $12 - 15 per day

RCCL, HAL - $12 - 13 per day

Carnival - $8 - 10 per day

NCL - $7.50 - 8.50 per day

 

Thank you Phillip for your usual insightful response. Would you have any idea where MSC fits in on this list?

[njhorseman]

The numbers you are looking for are very carefully guarded secrets in the cruise industry. The cruise lines are even reluctant to give them to each other.

 

The numbers do vary quite a bit as well, depending on ship, itinerary, and time of year.

 

Here is a general break-down, per passenger, per day:

 

Seabourn, Silver Sea - $24 - 26 per day

Oceania, Regent - $18 - 20 per day

Celebrity, Princess - $12 - 15 per day

RCCL, HAL - $12 - 13 per day

Carnival - $8 - 10 per day

NCL - $7.50 - 8.50 per day

 

Bear in mind that itinerary has a lot to do with these numbers:

 

Flying tons of food from USA to a ship in Europe is very expensive.

European Cruisers have paid substantially more for a cruise and have higher expectations. Their menus are usually pricier.

 

Caribbean Cruisers generally pay far less for a cruise. Their expectations are generally lower, so menus carry less expensive items. Loading food in the Caribbean is usually far less expensive as well.

 

Alaska Cruises are generally pricier, people eat more there and spend more time in the restaurants. Shipping and loading are more expensive in Alaska. Menus are generally higher cost on these itineraries.

 

Transatlantic cruisers eat far more than those on a "regular" cruise. This pushes costs about 50% higher.

 

Cruises with more sea days have far higher food costs than cruises that are port-intensive. It seems that when cruisers are not going ashore, they are eating, eating, eating.

 

Most passengers gorge themselves for the first 3 or 4 days of their cruise. When they finally realise that they are eating themselves sick, they back off a bit and eat more normally. As a result, food costs on a 3 or 4 day cruise are far higher than on longer cruises.

 

Repositioning cruises usually attract the bargain hunters. The mass market cruise lines just wants to break even on fuel costs to get the ship from the old itinerary to the new one. Most of the higher priced items disappear from these menus to cut costs.

 

By the way, there will be a percentage of readers on this board who will say that these numbers are impossible. Next time you want to complain about food quality on a ship, think about how they are able to sell you such a low priced vacation..................

 

 

I won't even begin to ask where you obtain your data or what year it purports to represent, but I would like to comment about a couple of statements I've marked in red.

Other than regional variations caused by local supply conditions, such as certain types of fish or produce not being readily available (or more avialable), each of the mass market cruise lines, such as Royal Caribbean, Carnival, NCL, Celebrity and Princess use identical or nearly identical main dining room menus fleet-wide, regardless of ship or itinerary. A Royal Caribbean cruise in the Caribbean leaving from Florida is going to have a main dining room menu that is virtually identical to that on a New England/Canada cruising leaving from Bayonne, NJ, or anywhere else you can name, including Alaska and Europe. If you are dropped blindfolded onto a ship, you're not going to be able to tell what your itinerary or homeport is by looking at the dinner menu.

 

Your statement "Loading food in the Caribbean is usually far less expensive as well" is rather puzzling too, because US homeported ships generally don't load food in the Caribbean. They are provisioned in the US.

 

Your statement about repo cruises is also a real puzzler. Every one I've been on has used the cruise line's regular menu rotation.

[smeyer418]

I won't even begin to ask where you obtain your data or what year it purports to represent, but I would like to comment about a couple of statements I've marked in red.

 

Other than regional variations caused by local supply conditions, such as certain types of fish or produce not being readily available (or more avialable), each of the mass market cruise lines, such as Royal Caribbean, Carnival, NCL, Celebrity and Princess use identical or nearly identical main dining room menus fleet-wide, regardless of ship or itinerary. A Royal Caribbean cruise in the Caribbean leaving from Florida is going to have a main dining room menu that is virtually identical to that on a New England/Canada cruising leaving from Bayonne, NJ, or anywhere else you can name, including Alaska and Europe. If you are dropped blindfolded onto a ship, you're not going to be able to tell what your itinerary or homeport is by looking at the dinner menu.

 

Your statement "Loading food in the Caribbean is usually far less expensive as well" is rather puzzling too, because US homeported ships generally don't load food in the Caribbean. They are provisioned in the US.

 

Your statement about repo cruises is also a real puzzler. Every one I've been on has used the cruise line's regular menu rotation.

 

 

Philip works for a cruise line.

[njhorseman]

Philip works for a cruise line.

 

 

So do the customer service reps that give you incorrect answers when you call the cruise lines' "800" numbers.

 

One of the insurance company presidents to whom I reported wouldn't have been able to give a coherent three sentence presentation to the board of directors if I didn't have every word written out for him in advance.

 

Some of his answers conflict with my personal experience as well as what I've learned from from others.

Edited November 27, 2009 by njhorseman

[Philip217]

For the past 3 decades I have been the guy who chooses menus and menu items for specific itineraries on cruise ships. The trick is to remove enough of the pricier items to reduce overall costs, but hopefully without taking away so much that the punters notice.

 

In your case, I was apparently very successful.

 

I also compute food cost reports every day of the year.

I'm also standing on the pier supervising provisions loading in places like Miami, Ft Lauderdale, St Thomas, and San Juan (yes, they are in the Caribbean).

[PennyAgain]

Remember these food costs are minus labor and have no operating overhead.

 

Most cruise lines are trying to cut back on the amount of food that passengers order (or put on their plates in a buffet) and then do not eat It is a waste of money and food.

 

I believe the numbers above are realistic.

[sail7seas]

I think the per diems you posted are high. Maybe that was the case a few years ago but not today.

 

Also...... Seeing as Carnival Family of Ships are all supplied by Carnival Corporation, their buying power is immense.

 

Costa, Carnival, Cunard, Seabourn, HAL, Princess..... They buy lots of eggs, milk, ketchup for amazingly low prices.

 

By the way, the "Punters" notice. Some of us actually pay for those Suites and know what the per diem is that we pay for our cruises. We are well aware caviar has disappeared from the menus.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2009 by sail7seas

[smeyer418]

So do the customer service reps that give you incorrect answers when you call the cruise lines' "800" numbers.

 

One of the insurance company presidents to whom I reported wouldn't have been able to give a coherent three sentence presentation to the board of directors if I didn't have every word written out for him in advance.

 

Some of his answers conflict with my personal experience as well as what I've learned from from others.

 

 

LOL I have been known to disagree with Philip on more than one occasion(I think it was he who said that the POA was toast at the beginning of 2009), but food costs seem to be something he knows(along with the number of people who remove tips/service charges)...

[njhorseman]

LOL I have been known to disagree with Philip on more than one occasion(I think it was he who said that the POA was toast at the beginning of 2009), but food costs seem to be something he knows(along with the number of people who remove tips/service charges)...

 

 

Sid..it's not the numbers I'm disputing, other than wondering aloud about their source and how recent they are...I have no knowledge of actual costs...it's the explanations that I find lacking, and even illogical and self contradictory.

Edited November 28, 2009 by njhorseman

[Cuizer2]

so do the customer service reps that give you incorrect answers when you call the cruise lines' "800" numbers.

 

:) lol :)

Edited November 28, 2009 by Cuizer2

[Philip217]

I think the per diems you posted are high. Maybe that was the case a few years ago but not today.

 

Also...... Seeing as Carnival Family of Ships are all supplied by Carnival Corporation, their buying power is immense.

 

Costa, Carnival, Cunard, Seabourn, HAL, Princess..... They buy lots of eggs, milk, ketchup for amazingly low prices.

 

By the way, the "Punters" notice. Some of us actually pay for those Suites and know what the per diem is that we pay for our cruises. We are well aware caviar has disappeared from the menus.

 

 

 

 

I was coinicidentally at a meeting with a large number of my industry colleagues a few weeks ago. One of the subjects that always comes up is costs. The two big ones are food and fuel.

Fuel we cannot really control too well. Food we can - to some degree.

 

Food costs have been rising steadily over the past 10 years. Not because we are offering higher quality ingredients, but because the actual cost of food stuffs has risen dramatically. Some of this increase is due to fuel costs being passed on by the farmers and wholesalers. Part of the challenge is the requirement by the CDC that nearly all food served on a ship must come from CDC Certified Sellers. All of the sellers certified by the CDC are in North America. This becomes a very big and expensive logistics problem when your ship is in Africa, Europe, or Asia. The rapidly dwindling US Dollar is another negative. Since most passengers pay in US Dollars, the cruise lines have plenty of those. But if they want to purchase anything (beverages for example) outside the USA, they will - in most cases - take a huge hit on exchanging the weak dollars to pay in local currency. The rest of the cost increase is just plain inflation.

 

The food costs I posted above were generally valid as of this month. But they will be going up soon - unfortunately for all the wrong reasons.

 

One of the issues raised by several posters was the cost of staff that prepare and serve all that food. For the mass market cruise lines, the total cost of keeping a rank and file employee onboard a ship for one day is around US$14. Since we contract employees to work for 13 hours per day, our total non-management labor cost runs just over $1 per hour, per employee. Probably a smaller number than most would guess.

[njhorseman]

For the past 3 decades I have been the guy who chooses menus and menu items for specific itineraries on cruise ships. The trick is to remove enough of the pricier items to reduce overall costs, but hopefully without taking away so much that the punters notice.

 

In your case, I was apparently very successful.

 

I also compute food cost reports every day of the year.

I'm also standing on the pier supervising provisions loading in places like Miami, Ft Lauderdale, St Thomas, and San Juan (yes, they are in the Caribbean).

 

 

Or, I was smart enough to stay away from your cruise line.

 

If you read my words carefully, I specifically said US homeported ships generally don't load food in the Caribbean. So, I was talking about ships sailing out of ports like Miami, Fort Lauderdale, New York, etc,. Obviously if a ship cruises out of San Juan that is going to be its primary provisioning port. And, use of the word "generally" doesn't preclude the possibility of them sometimes loading food there.

Edited November 28, 2009 by njhorseman

[Philip217]

njhorseman,

 

The design of today's modern cruise ships is very difficult to understand. In order to maximize profits, the lines have dramatically reduced onboard storage ( and increased passenger cabins) to the point where many can no longer store enough food and beverage for even a 7-day cruise. As a result, we are often forced to have two provisionings per cruise. More immediate and less heat-sensitive items are usually loaded in Florida, leaving large quantity/weight items and less heat-sensitive items for loading in places like St Thomas and San Juan.

 

Despite the longer distance and shipping issues, it is often more cost-effective to go through these essentially tax and duty free "US Zones" than it is to go through Miami or Ft Lauderdale.

Passengers in St Thomas and San Juan rarely even notice that loading is happening there, as most of them are on tour or shopping while it happens. But we know it's happening, because we are out on the pier all day, trying to stop the stevedores from stealing everything.

[njhorseman]

njhorseman,

 

The design of today's modern cruise ships is very difficult to understand. In order to maximize profits, the lines have dramatically reduced onboard storage ( and increased passenger cabins) to the point where many can no longer store enough food and beverage for even a 7-day cruise. As a result, we are often forced to have two provisionings per cruise. More immediate and less heat-sensitive items are usually loaded in Florida, leaving large quantity/weight items and less heat-sensitive items for loading in places like St Thomas and San Juan.

 

Despite the longer distance and shipping issues, it is often more cost-effective to go through these essentially tax and duty free "US Zones" than it is to go through Miami or Ft Lauderdale.

Passengers in St Thomas and San Juan rarely even notice that loading is happening there, as most of them are on tour or shopping while it happens. But we know it's happening, because we are out on the pier all day, trying to stop the stevedores from stealing everything.

 

 

I certainly didn't notice any food being loaded during the course of 7 day transatlantic cruises that made no port stops between Europe and the US, so I assume there was adequate storage on the ship. I'm pretty sure I wasn't out on any shore excursions in the middle of the North Atlantic. ;)

 

 

I actually have seen US-based ships take on some supplies during Caribbean port stops, but the amounts appeared to be trivial compared to what was loaded at the homeport. I always assumed it was a matter of convenience or cost, not storage space, given how little seemed to be going on the ship. But that's what's confusing me about your explanation. You talk about lack of storage space, but then you say it's more cost effective to do it in San Juan or St. Thomas. That would seem to imply that if it was not more cost effective, you would do it in the US, but then to do so you would need more storage space, which you say you don't have.

Edited November 28, 2009 by njhorseman

[carlmm]

Part of the challenge is the requirement by the CDC that nearly all food served on a ship must come from CDC Certified Sellers. All of the sellers certified by the CDC are in North America.

 

May I ask you to explain this further? To which ships does this apply, and what is the internationally valid legal basis for this?

 

Almost all ships are not US-flagged. Cruise lines' structures are complicated and often include companies registered in various countries. Ships stop in many countries and passengers do come from many parts of the world. Can every country in the world expect their maybe contradictory legislation to be followed by cruise ships?

[smeyer418]

May I ask you to explain this further? To which ships does this apply, and what is the internationally valid legal basis for this?

 

Almost all ships are not US-flagged. Cruise lines' structures are complicated and often include companies registered in various countries. Ships stop in many countries and passengers do come from many parts of the world. Can every country in the world expect their maybe contradictory legislation to be followed by cruise ships?

 

 

it applies to any ship that wants to enter a US port. The whole CDC program is "voluntary". But no CDC certs for the food and the ship can't enter the US ports. So its either be prepared to off load all the food and bring US cert on or always have CDC certified foods. Since the US traveling public makes up over 60% of cruisers, they comply flag or no flag.

 

Food illness on board ships has been a big problem and this is one way to make it safer(in their view not mine)

[spongerob]

Food illness on board ships has been a big problem and this is one way to make it safer(in their view not mine)

Sometimes the regs come before the investigation and analysis. I think a lot of people blamed food quality, and not hygiene, for norovirus outbreaks when they started to become headline news. The CDC thing sounds like a knee-jerk reaction, done to give the appearance of being proactive but in reality does little or nothing to address the root cause of the problem.

 

Something I'm sure you know, but didn't state.

Edited November 28, 2009 by spongerob

[Philip217]

May I ask you to explain this further? To which ships does this apply, and what is the internationally valid legal basis for this?

 

Almost all ships are not US-flagged. Cruise lines' structures are complicated and often include companies registered in various countries. Ships stop in many countries and passengers do come from many parts of the world. Can every country in the world expect their maybe contradictory legislation to be followed by cruise ships?

 

Excellent questions. But the answers are not as easy. The US Government has taken the liberty of claiming that certain US Laws apply to foreign flag ships that:

 

1. carry US Citizens

2. have offices in the USA

3. sell passage to people in the USA

4. call at US Ports.

5. sail anywhere on the "high seas"

 

Is this legal? Who knows. I'm not a lawyer. It sounds a bit dodgey to me.

 

But if the foreign flag ships do not agree to the US Government's wishes, they (and possibly all the other ships belonging to that cruise line) could be summarily banned from calling at US Ports. The cruise lines dare not take that chance.

 

Examples:

A German citizen flies to Miami and boards a foreign flag ship that is crossing back to Europe. He walks into the ship's casino a few days later and wins US$10,000. The cruise line is required by the US Government to deduct US Income Tax from his winnings before paying him out - even though he is not a US Citizen or Resident, and he won the money outside the USA, in International Waters.

 

You are a US Citizen who walks into Diamonds International (at the advice of your onboard shopping hostess) in Aruba and buys something Duty Free. Since the cruise line promotes Diamonds International, we are required to report your purchase to US Customs before the end of the cruise. If we don't, there will be many unexpected "problems" getting the ship cleared in future US Port stops.

 

P&O Cruise ships are primarily calling at ports outside the USA. But the US Government claims that since some of their ships occasionally stop in US Ports, none of their ships is allowed to carry or sell Cuban cigars even if those ships NEVER enter US Waters. There is a US$1 million fine for P&O (and all other cruise lines) if they are caught.

 

If a cruise line has 20 ships, and just one ship visits Cuba, all 20 ships in the fleet are banned from entering any US Port.

 

The CDC ruled that all ships from my cruise line - even if they never visit the USA - must follow CDC guidelines for purchasing, storing, preparing, and serving food. (I don't disagree with this rule by the way). But if they find out that one of our ships sailing in China is not following some of their guidelines, they can ban all of our ships from entering US Ports.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Philip217