Greek Economy could affect travel plans

[numbersix]

I hope many carefully read FBlacks prior post. VAT tax is going from 21 to 23% . Vat tax is even worse then a national sales tax because it is applied to every step of manufacture and sales so it compounds. .

 

Hank

 

Just a little correction here--VAT (Value-added tax), yes, is applied at each step of manufacture and sales, BUT--a deduction is applied for VAT already paid on the previous steps, so it only applies, in the final analysis, once. Now, I do agree that a 23% VAT is outrageous, but it is fairly pervasive throughout (high-taxed) Europe.

 

George Harrison said it well, in "Taxman":

 

Let me tell you how it will be,

There’s one for you, nineteen for me,

‘Cause I’m the Taxman,

Yeah, I’m the Taxman.

Should five per cent appear too small,

Be thankful I don’t take it all.

‘Cos I’m the Taxman,

Yeah, I’m the Taxman.

 

(If you drive a car ), I’ll tax the street,

(If you try to sit ), I’ll tax your seat,

(If you get too cold ), I’ll tax the heat,

(If you take a walk ), I’ll tax your feet.

Taxman.

 

‘Cause I’m the Taxman,

Yeah, I’m the Taxman.

Don’t ask me what I want it for

(Taxman! Mister Wilson!)

If you don’t want to pay some more

(Taxman! Mister Heath!),

‘Cause I’m the Taxman,

Yeah, I’m the Taxman.

 

Now my advice for those who die, (Taxman!)

Declare the pennies on your eyes, (Taxman!)

‘Cause I’m the Taxman,

Yeah, I’m the Taxman.

And you’re working for no-one but me,

(Taxman).

 

Your Thomas Jefferson was right.

Kevin

[Fblack]

Ultimately, the VAT tax is passed on to the consumer who really pays a price for living in a high VAT tax country.

[TLCOhio]

YES, that VAT is bad. Not good in Europe, even worse if done here in the U.S.

 

From the Reuters newswire in the last hour, they have this headline: "Greeks strike against austerity, test govt mettle. Flights grounded, shops closed as workers strike" with these highlights: "Greek protests against new austerity measures are set to swell on Wednesday when public and private sector workers take to the streets together in a test of the government's resolve to enforce tough budget cuts. About 4,000 teachers, garbage collectors, pensioners and civil servants rallied in Athens on Tuesday, in the first march organised by unions after the government announced sweeping spending cuts to secure an EU/IMF rescue package. Unions have promised much bigger crowds on Wednesday when private sector workers join forces with the public sector's 48-hour strike for a day. All flights will be grounded on Wednesday and the country could grind to a virtual halt in the third joint public-private sector walkout since the start of the year."

 

From the AP newswire, they have this headline: "Stocks slide as new doubts about Greek aid emerge" with these highlights: "Stocks plunged around the world Tuesday as fears spread that Europe's attempt to contain Greece's debt crisis would fail. The euro fell to its lowest point against the dollar in a year. The trouble in Greece gave investors enough reason to worry that other cash-strapped European governments could follow Greece into asking for emergency loans. Traders have been skeptical that Europe can act on its own restore the credibility of its shared currency, the euro."

 

For the full stories:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE6432EL20100504

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jmT59dgLTTziX4p9X9MRBRpWZGdQD9FG89O00

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

[Hlitner]

What is amazing to me is that there is a segment of our US population that believes in high government spending and high taxes (actually they believe in high taxes for everyone but themselves). What it happening in Europe with the PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain) should be a wake-up call, but of course most of these folks ignore the European plight. Many of the Greeks seem to be totally ignorant of the laws of economics and think that socialism means you can just ignore economics. So, they continue to strike and disrupt their economy even more, which just makes things worse. As to the cruises this summer, port calls in Pireaus will by an uncertainty for sometime to come, but the economic situation may not impact the Greek island ports.

 

Hank

[patseacruiser]

My friend has made it into Athens about noon (our time) today. She started yesterday morning at about 9ish. I had a text from her last night about 8 that said she was sitting on the tarmac - again. And then i didn't hear from her until afternoon today. Her luggage did not make it and since she is aboard she texted me if I could try to find it. One airline says it's in Amsterdam and another airline says it's at JFK and another one says to call Olympic Airlines. She's resigned to the fact that she might not see it for 2 weeks. She also said that since it's an Athens to Athens cruise they have reconfigured the port order and she said it's just as well because her walking shoes are in her luggage! LOL At one point last night she said she would rather wait until today and just go direct from JFK to Athens rather than rerouted through Paris but I tried to talk her into going last night because who knows what todays travelers will face tomorrow. I'm glad she's accounted for even if her luggage isn't.

[TLCOhio]

My friend has made it into Athens about noon (our time) today. She started yesterday morning at about 9ish. I had a text from her last night about 8 that said she was sitting on the tarmac - again. And then i didn't hear from her until afternoon today. Her luggage did not make it and since she is aboard she texted me if I could try to find it. One airline says it's in Amsterdam and another airline says it's at JFK and another one says to call Olympic Airlines. She's resigned to the fact that she might not see it for 2 weeks. She also said that since it's an Athens to Athens cruise they have reconfigured the port order and she said it's just as well because her walking shoes are in her luggage! LOL At one point last night she said she would rather wait until today and just go direct from JFK to Athens rather than rerouted through Paris but I tried to talk her into going last night because who knows what todays travelers will face tomorrow. I'm glad she's accounted for even if her luggage isn't.

 

THANKS for the update your friend! She's there, but without luggage. Hopefully, she'll hang in and make the best of things. She won't forget this trip.

 

Agree with Hank on the budget concerns here and there. Economics does force people to "catch up" to reality sooner or later. Maybe it will help some people "sober up". Or, the voters will have the final verdict on their fate.

 

Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

[MANURULES]

Good thing you told her to go yesterday.The Airport is supposed to be closed at 12 am- 12pm Wed.They are supposed to let some long haul flights land ,but I will believe it when I see it.You just never know what they will do at the last minute at the airport.

[chipmaster]

Ouch things seem to be getting worse :mad: Hopefully it will all bottom out and stabilize before summer tourist season starts.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s//ynews/20100504/wl_ynews/ynews_wl1925

[nellydean]

Watching the lunchtime news, very sad that three people have lost their lives in the latest trouble, just went to work in a bank and have been killed in a firebomb attack by protesters :(

 

Our BOS cruise is scheduled for a stop for Athens this summer, I know it's still a way off, but if the trouble is still flaring, does anyone know whether we would be likely to do an extra cruising day, or is there somewhere else we could call at in the region? Anyone had to do this through bad weather or any other reason?

 

Athens was going to be one of the highlights for us, so I hope things settle, first for the people, and second for tourists, which the country will need more than ever to help boost the economy

[Fblack]

It's getting violent now. And it's not just Athens.

 

"Three people died when an Athens bank went up in flames Wednesday as tens of thousands of Greeks took to the streets...

 

Tear gas drifted across the city's center as hundreds of rioters hurled paving stones and Molotov cocktails at police... At least two buildings were on fire...

 

An estimated 100,000 people took to the streets as part of nationwide strikes ...

 

Violence also broke out in the northern city of Thessaloniki, where another 20,000 people marched through the city center, with youths smashing windows of stores and fast food restaurants... ."

 

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iXUJvBknZVGqsBenIusBgBvWj5WQD9FGMT100

[patseacruiser]

That is just terrible to hear about violence and dying.

[LiveToCruise99]

Hello all,

 

How awful it has come to this. I wonder where it will end. Has anyone heard of cruise ships cancelling Athens or re-routing somewhere else?

[numbersix]

What is amazing to me is that there is a segment of our US population that believes in high government spending and high taxes (actually they believe in high taxes for everyone but themselves). What it happening in Europe with the PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain) should be a wake-up call, but of course most of these folks ignore the European plight. Many of the Greeks seem to be totally ignorant of the laws of economics and think that socialism means you can just ignore economics. So, they continue to strike and disrupt their economy even more, which just makes things worse. As to the cruises this summer, port calls in Pireaus will by an uncertainty for sometime to come, but the economic situation may not impact the Greek island ports.

 

Hank

 

Hear, hear!! But, please...PIIGS...don't forget the Irish!

 

We have it worse (than you) here north of the 49th, as we have a 'conservative' government (but not a majority) currently, but a long tradition of quasi-socialism.

 

A market newsletter I subscribe to (Dennis Gartman) from time to time has presented information and statistics on the fact that, in the US, over (just over) 50% of the adult population now either pay no taxes at all (income taxes, that is), or are 'net-negative' (they not only pay no taxes, but receive tax credits). The demographic consequences of that are frightening.

 

Part of the austerity measures in Greece are to discontinue the practice of paying a bonus of one months' salary to public employees at each of Christmas and Easter--they called it the 13th and 14th month--quaint!

 

If the Greeks ( and I think we don't like to appear to be continually harping on the Greeks, but it is happening there) don't like austerity measures, I can just imagine how they're going to like what default looks like.

 

Kevin

[patseacruiser]

Like I said above my friend is on Voyages to Antiquity that is supposed to leave today from Athens. She had quite the time getting there and took over 24 hours being rerouted a few times but finally making it to Athens. Her luggage didn't make it. I just got this text from her " No KLM no clothes. No laundry. Riots in the streets. They can't get to the airport. We may not sail. Also can't get out except by tour bus"

[Fblack]

This is attributed to Margaret Thatcher and seems to apply to Greece.

 

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money [to spend]."

 

I know she actually said"

 

"... Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."

[numbersix]

This is attributed to Margaret Thatcher and seems to apply to Greece.

 

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money [to spend]."

 

I know she actually said"

 

"... Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."

 

Just brilliant!! At the risk of being mega-flamed, I must admit that's she's my hero! BTW--where have all the statesman (statespersons?) gone?

 

Thanks for the great quotes.

 

Kevin

[TLCOhio]

Not good news or details today from Athens and Greece. Below are added details within the past hour. Not a pretty or positive picture.

 

From the New York Times, they have this headline: "Three Reported Killed in Greek Protests" with these highlights: "Demonstrations against tough new austerity measures in Greece claimed their first fatalities on Wednesday with three people reported to have died inside a bank building set ablaze by protesters. The reports came as workers across Greece went on strike over deep spending cuts and new taxes aimed at staving off economic collapse. Tear gas billowed across the central Sintagma Square in front of Parliament as demonstrators trying to storm the Parliament building hurled rocks, paving stones and gasoline bombs. Police responded with tear gas canisters that spread a choking pall of smoke. Fire fighters extinguished blazes in two buildings and protesters threw up barricades, setting fire to cars and a fire truck, news reports said. Tens of thousands of people had converged on the city center as part of a general strike that paralyzed flights, ferries, schools and hospitals. As the 24-hour strike began, German Chancellor Angela Merkel told legislators that the 110-billion euro plan to bail out Greece was 'about nothing less than the future of Europe and the future of Germany in Europe.' "

 

Here is a super key part of this NY Times story: "Many Greeks are angry and complain that they are paying the price for the profligacy of others. But most now appear to be resigned that megaphones and protest songs are no match for the volatile financial markets that have roiled the country for the past several months. Many appear resigned to endure what some economists predict could be a ten-year period before the economy bounces back."

 

From the AFP French newswire, they have this headline: "Violence-hit Greece on 'edge of abyss': president" with these highlights: "Greek President Carolos Papoulias on Wednesday said the debt-hit country had 'reached the edge of the abyss' as violence during anti-austerity protests left three people dead."

 

From the Reuters, they have this headline: "Can Greece cut its deficit by 11 points by 2014?" with these highlights: "Greece has signed up to a package of austerity measures designed to cut its deficit by 11 percentage points between 2009 and 2014, an aim that will deepen the recession and could spark a social backlash. Social unrest could intensify if the unemployment rate pushes over 11 percent and that could prevent Prime Minister George Papandreou's government from pushing reforms. Labour unions have already vowed to resist further austerity. Even without social unrest, cutting deficits in times of economic downturn is extremely difficult, as shown by the examples of three non-euro-zone EU states that pledged to trim public finance shortfalls as part of EU and IMF aid packages. GOVERNMENT MEETS FISCAL TARGETS? PROBABILITY: Low. Analysts say the new target to cut the deficit below 3 percent in 2014 is more realistic than the previous 2012 target, but say risks are still high, with increasing public opposition and a bleak economic outlook the main dangers."

 

From the Wall Street Journal, they have this headline: "Three Killed in Fire as Strikes Grip Greece" with these highlights: "A nationwide general strike paralyzed Greece on Wednesday as protests against the government's recently announced austerity measures turned violent, with an apparent firebomb attack on a central Athens bank killing three people. Wednesday's 24-hour strike is seen as a key test of the government's ability to shepherd through tough austerity measures in exchange for a €110 billion ($143 billion) bailout loan from the European Union and the International Monetary Fund."

 

Full story details:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/06/world/europe/06greece.html?hp

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE64322V20100504?type=marketsNews

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703961104575225472577513414.html?mod=WSJ_hps_LEFTTopStories

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

[patseacruiser]

OK - I got another text from my friend " Tomorrow they are going to attempt the acropolis but I guess it depends. Maybe sail tomorrow night. People pretty upset. No luggage so if you could keep tracking that for me it would help. The people here are beside themselves. Mainden voyage n nothing works. They say they will do my laundry but my walking shoes would be nice. Will keep you posted. True there was a terrorist at jfk? "

[TLCOhio]

OK - I got another text from my friend "Tomorrow they are going to attempt the acropolis but I guess it depends. Maybe sail tomorrow night. People pretty upset. No luggage so if you could keep tracking that for me it would help. The people here are beside themselves. Mainden voyage n nothing works. They say they will do my laundry but my walking shoes would be nice. Will keep you posted. True there was a terrorist at jfk?"

 

THANKS for the update on your friend in Athens! That's challenging and tough. Keep us posted. It should be getting better, soon!

 

From the Wall Street Journal Marketwatch, they have these headlines: "Sovereign debt fears push euro down another 1%. British pound under pressure as risk of hung parliament looms" with these highlights: "The European single currency fell to the lowest in 13 months against the dollar on Wednesday, battered by fears that sovereign-debt woes in southern Europe will spread in spite of the lifeline provided to Greece by its euro-zone partners and the International Monetary Fund. The current run on the euro will also be center stage when the European Central Bank meets on Thursday. 'Everyone was worried about Spain becoming the next Greece, and today the fear is on Portugal,' said Kathy Lien, director of currency research at GFT. 'Traders continue to dump euros.' "

 

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/sovereign-debt-fears-keep-euro-under-pressure-2010-05-05?siteid=rss

 

Terry in Ohio

[Fblack]

Patseacruiser:

 

What ship is your friend going on? It's a maiden voyage?

 

JFK had a little excitement. It was never shut down. They dragged the guy off of a plane and arrested him. Luckily no one was hurt.

[SXM54]

When does RCI pull the plug on the stop in Athens? Seems like things have gone from bad to worse? We are scheduled to arrive on May 25 in Athens from Venice.

[cruisemom42]

OK - I got another text from my friend " Tomorrow they are going to attempt the acropolis but I guess it depends. Maybe sail tomorrow night. People pretty upset. No luggage so if you could keep tracking that for me it would help. The people here are beside themselves. Mainden voyage n nothing works. They say they will do my laundry but my walking shoes would be nice. Will keep you posted. True there was a terrorist at jfk? "

 

 

Note to self: put more clothing into carry-on bag for cruise.... and wear good walking shoes.

[numbersix]

When does RCI pull the plug on the stop in Athens? Seems like things have gone from bad to worse? We are scheduled to arrive on May 25 in Athens from Venice.

 

I'm really not being glib about this, and, who really knows, but I believe that people can't keep this up for very long before:

 

--reality sets in--kind of like when you get dumped by your first love--for a while it seems like the end of the world, but then you get over it, and life goes on. Reality will set in, and the Greeks will begin to realize that this is the best way out for them...the only way out for them--there really is no other acceptable way (as all other possible outcomes will be worse); and

 

--People cannot protest like this for long--they'll get tired, they'll get exhausted, and the protests will wither away.

 

Unless they have some ridiculous law that says they get paid when they strike (and who knows--maybe they do), they'll soon pick eating over striking.

 

The whole world was living too high on the proverbial hog, but they made it an art form.

 

Change (especially big change) is always tough.

 

My prediction is that you'll be fine for May 25th.

 

Kevin

[MANURULES]

Some of the comments here on CC just show that most people have absolutely no idea about other peoples lifestyles,just like others do not know much about you.The terrible events today are ...well i can not find words to describe them.

On the other hand the event as presented by CNN,BBC, and FOX tv,along with some of the reports by press agencies, paint a false and very general picture of what,where ,and who did what over there.

 

From CC sister site TA.Not my words, just a post by a contributor Xaroula that I know to be true and agree .

 

 

 

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g189400-i194-k3605034-o50-3Die_in_Riots_100K_Protest_Strikes_Tourism_will_be_effected-Athens_Attica.html

 

 

 

In advance, sorry if this is considered off topic or too political. A few things I would like to mention, as I think many people may not be getting clear information outside Greece. From reading BBC and CNN, not to mention from the questions and posts we've been getting on this forum, I don't think this situation here in Athens is well understood.

WHO is doing the protesting? The protests are officially organized by unions that ask certain professions to strike and to participate in demonstrations. But the vast majority of those people will not actually go on strike. To strike effectively, to start with, you need to be in Athens, or at least in Thessaloniki. So on the islands, people don't go on strike. Furthermore, to go on strike, you have to WANT to go on strike - and a LOT of people don't. A lot of people see striking as counterproductive for a number of reasons - not least because for every day you strike, you don't get paid - and the union isn't paying you your wages either.

WHY are people protesting? The new austerity measures are harsh, in that they mean that a lot of us (like my husband) make a lot less money than they did a few days ago, and it can be tough to get by when you suddenly make a lot less and see your taxes go up (taxes went up a lot, especially if you own a car or a house). But everyone here understands that austerity measures are needed - no one is arguing that we should default and go off the Euro and devalue the drachma and exit the markets and a volunteer public sector.... we aren't stupid, we know what happened in Argentina. The problem that a lot of people have, and why a lot of people are striking, is 1) that the measures are particularly onerous on people who already don't make very much money - the young and the long-term unemployed, the disabled, the retired, etc. and 2) because there have been no guarantees or even indications from the government that these measures are only temporary - yes, they have called it a "3 year plan" but people want to be told, straight out, "we will start to raise wages/pensions again in 2014" and they haven't heard that yet.

WHEN are people protesting? People were protesting today because today was the day that the bill was going to be signed into law. In other words, this is not something you can expect to happen day after day forever - today was a big day because it was now or never. After a few more days when the whole thing is passed, I personally expect things to quiet down a lot. People don't just protest for the heck of it. Remember: they lose money for every day that they strike.

WHAT can you do to help? One thing is that you can try to remain calm. Greece is a country that has been through absolutely unreal crises and hardship just in the past 100 years and has made it through over and over, and we'll make it through this too. Greece is still beautiful, full of history, fascinating to explore, and welcoming. It's also dealing with very serious fiscal problems that have very complex causes; blaming one group or another only exposes the ignorance of the journalist, politician or pundit doing the blaming. If you feel like putting off your trip and visiting Greece at a later time - you should do that. No one should ever travel while afraid. And Greece will still be here next summer. If you feel like coming to Greece (and try to remember WHY you wanted to come here in the first place) you'll have a great time and your hosts will be thrilled to see you.

Most people can't imagine what it would be like to try to support themselves (much less a family) on €540 / month, even with a masters' degree and experience. A lot of people in Greece are facing that right now. Most of them are willing to put up with these measures. They'd just like to see a light at the end of the tunnel. When crazy anarchists (who do in fact pop up now and again - this is true and no one would deny it) take advantage of their legitimate protests to inject violence into the situation, it makes the whole country look bad, and it has the power to hurt the economy even further. I wish with all my heart that those idiots had not thrown molotov cocktails at the bank employees, but as the chief of police said today, they are investigating and will do everything possible to bring them to justice.

I wasn't in NYC on 9/11 when the attacks occurred; I was in Washington, DC across from the Pentagon, and I will never forget that day, watching the smoke billowing across the river. My sister died in the terrorist attacks and I personally took part in protests and demonstrations against the Afghanistan war in DC in the days following her death. Please take my word for it: people do not join these protests because they want a day off work. You do it because it's something you care very deeply about and you want to make a difference, to help yourself and others. Let's not look at the protests as "Greece is ruining their own tourist economy" or "the protesters are ruining my holiday." These are very serious issues and Greece is a very democratic country (more than the country where I grew up) and this is how democracy works.

But let's also stay realistic. Athens is NOT a war zone. I live here only a few blocks from Syntagma Square and it is quiet and peaceful here. The only affects on us today were the sadness when we heard about the deaths of the bank employees, and the others (including police) who were injured.

[patseacruiser]

My friend is on a maiden voyage sailing of the Aegean Odyssey (Voyages to Antiquity line). Was supposed to sail 10 pm on May 5. She was supposed to arrive Tuesday morning but there were a lot of flights cancelled and she was re-routed a few times but arrived Tuesday afternoon. The ship did not leave. They have not even been allowed to leave the ship. Her luggage never made it with her because her flight missed the connection at JFK and they put her on Air France and her luggage went to Amsterdam I think they said. So now her luggage is supposed to arrive in Athens tomorrow but I don't know if they'll still be on strike and if she can even get her luggage. She said she borrowed a shirt from a passenger. The whole point for her to go 2 days early was to sightsee in Athens. Luckily she got upgraded from an interior to a balcony for her troubles.