Appropriate Behavior for Breaches of HAL Rules

[serendipity1499]

I have been told -- twice -- that I was over-dressed. Once on one of the now-defunct "Informal Nights" when I was dressed in a black suit and clericals. And, once, on Smart Casual Night when I was dressed in slacks and sports jacket. Both times it was a guy who said it to me ... the Smart Casual evening it happened in the elevator. The guy came in (wearing shorts and a t-shirt), looked me up and down, and said "Aren't you a little overdressed?"

 

I smiled and replied back, "No, sir, I don't believe so."

 

Once on our last cruise someone made a remark about DH's Tux..We were in the elevator, one formal night....DH was in his Tux & I was in my fancy outfit..A group got on the elevator, Men in Suits/Jackets & Ties & Ladies in their finery..

One of the Gentleman turned to DH & laughingly made a remark about him being dressed in a Tux & asked him if he was a "Politician"...:):)

When we told our Friends about it, they thought it was rude, but we just laughed it off..:)

If we happened see someone who was ignoring the dress code or "breaching HAL rules", we normally would just ignore it, unless it was dangerous or what most passengers would consider indecent...

If there was a child in the Adults only pool & we were severely impacted by his/her screaming & diving, we might ask the Adult to take the child to the Lido pool..If an Adult was not present, I might ask the Child to go to the Lido Pool..However, it would have to be a very serious breach of those rules before I would speak to either one....

Cheers..:).Betty

[etohliver]

This thread makes me laugh because yesterday after my 11 year old's Little League game we went to Dairy Queen and he removed his baseball cap upon entering while it wasn't until I saw him do it that I thought to remove mine!

 

It would never occur to me to say something to a stranger for rudeness, because what do I care? If I'm with my children though, I will always say something about it to them while it is a fresh "teachable moment." My wife's gotten used to it, although it used to make her uncomfortable.

 

For example, if someone were to cut infront of us at a buffet, I would just turn to my child and say in a normal voice, "it's just that no one ever taught him to respect other people, that's all." (Hmmm, bad example - because thinking about it what I would most likely do is say "sorry, I do believe the line starts back there." This works for me because I'm 6'1" 210lbs, your results may vary). :D

 

But like with a hat in the dining room, I wouldn't hesitate to mention in a normal voice to my children that it's not polite, although nowadays they'll probably beat me to it! My fourth grade teacher taught me to not let other people bother me with little things or else your brain shrinks. That's too wise a belief to check for accuracy, as far as I'm concrened.

[COLLEYBERRY]

If you can't say something nice about (to) someone, don't say anything at all.

 

Something else Momma used to tell me....I was the only girl in the family with two( pesky at the time) brothers.:D:D

 

psst. decided on Alaska yet :)

[dogo88]

I would do nothing if I noted it at all. I have never seen anyone ( other than the Maitre d') approach anyone re their dress or lack thereof.

 

My momma always told me that one may notice a breach of manners but one doesn't comment on it. True graciousness she said, was the ability to make anyone feel comfortable regardless of their social standing or lack thereof.

 

Very well put.

 

Dan

[DizzyDallasDi]

Something else Momma used to tell me....I was the only girl in the family with two( pesky at the time) brothers.:D:D

 

psst. decided on Alaska yet :)

 

Those pesky brothers probably deserved some not-nice comments every now and then. There's always an exception to the rule. ;)

 

psst back at ya. I'm still searching for the perfect cabin, hoping a balcony will open up on one of the Amsterdam 14-day trips. (fingers and toes remain crossed)

[Opinions]

“But the dress code says that’s suggested.”

 

“No, sir. What’s suggested is a tuxedo; what is required is a jacket and tie.”

 

 

 

What would happen today, not 2004?...The present dress code on the HAL web site does not suggest a tuxedo and require a jacket and tie...It does state what is "usually" worn...My own opinion is that no one would be denied dinner on formal night because they weren't wearing a tie...However I am not sure about no jacket...Any recent observations?

[gabbyisadog]

What would happen today, not 2004?...The present dress code on the HAL web site does not suggest a tuxedo and require a jacket and tie...It does state what is "usually" worn...My own opinion is that no one would be denied dinner on formal night because they weren't wearing a tie...However I am not sure about no jacket...Any recent observations?

On a Dec. Veendam cruise men ate in dinning room on formal night without jacket and tie. Not a words was said by HAL or at least they were not denied dinner. I don't think think HAL cares what you wear as long as you pay for your cabin.

 

I think they keep the current watered down formal requested nights to please the loyal old guard who likes them.

[madelinerose]

1. What do you think OUGHT to be done if someone is flagrantly violating a dress code or rule?

 

2. What have you ACTUALLY seen done (or done yourself) on cruises with HAL where you have seen someone flagrantly violating a dress code or rule? :)

 

1. Guillotine

 

2. Guillotine

[Copper10-8]

I was wondering if the funny looks or pointed stares was the most common thing to see. No one owns up to doing it, but you know if they are thinking it - it happens.......................

 

Posters here have owned up to it in the past! Specifically, some, after a visual "sampling of the (main show) room", were (unk if still are) in the habit of making "snide, humorous and side-splitting remarks" (their words) as to how inappropriate others were dressed. In their words "It was all in good fun of course", and at that time thought to be "quite humorous":cool:

[RevNeal]

What would happen today, not 2004?...The present dress code on the HAL web site does not suggest a tuxedo and require a jacket and tie...It does state what is "usually" worn...My own opinion is that no one would be denied dinner on formal night because they weren't wearing a tie...However I am not sure about no jacket...Any recent observations?

 

Is this January recent enough? On the first formal night of my January cruise to Hawaii a guy dressed in slacks and sports shirt was trying to enter the MDR ahead of us but was intercepted by one of the assistant managers. I didn't slow up or stop to listen to what was being said, but I did look back over my shoulder to see what was happening at one point when the traffic ahead of me had slowed to a stop: the guy was leaving, walking upstream through the inward flood of passengers.

 

I noticed several men coming out of the MDR taking ties OFF, but they had had them on in the MDR. I noticed a few men without ties in the MDR, though most of them were wearing neck closures that didn't leave room for ties (i.e., like me in my Clerics).

 

I've also been on cruises where men have been admitted to the MDR in shorts and t-shirts on Formal Nights, so I know that happens, too.

 

Are men in jackets but without ties usually admitted on Formal Nights? Yes. Does the ship-published "Welcome Aboard" guide define Formal Night, for men, as meaning minimally a "jacket and tie?" Yes. I'll have find it from my most recent cruise and scan it in.

[SJSULIBRARIAN]

I myself would not say anything to anyone for fear of getting smacked in return.

 

But I am appreciative of HAL staff for enforcing the dress code. On our recent Maasdam cruise, the dining manager did tell someone in shorts that he would have to be wearing long pants to eat in the dining room. The man did leave. I thanked the dining manager for doing so and he was pleased that I had thanked him.

 

On formal nights on HAL, we have yet to see anyone not in a suit, tux or fancy outfit for the women, but I suspect that time will come. On Princess, I have seen men in nice shirts and slacks (no jacket) on formal nights.

 

Barbara

[luxurysailer]

In general I would agree with the observations of others on this thread. However, I would take a slightly different tack concerning manners, "class," and social standing. And I think that most of you who have responded to this thread woud agree.

 

It has been my experience through life that some of the people that I have observed with the very best manners might be judged by some as to have no social standing and, therefore, no "class." On the other hand, some of the very worst manners I've ever observed were by people that many would judge as having social standing and, therefore, "class." Social standing and "class" do not necessarily accompany one another and all too frequently seem mutually excluding.

 

I think that a person who is gracious toward others will generally have at least acceptable table manners, etc., although they may not necessarily know which knife or fork to use or be dressed de rigeur. Nevertheless, give me this type of person any day over the properly attired boor with social standing and impeccable table manners.

[COLLEYBERRY]

In general I would agree with the observations of others on this thread. However, I would take a slightly different tack concerning manners, "class," and social standing. And I think that most of you who have responded to this thread woud agree.

 

It has been my experience through life that some of the people that I have observed with the very best manners might be judged by some as to have no social standing and, therefore, no "class." On the other hand, some of the very worst manners I've ever observed were by people that many would judge as having social standing and, therefore, "class." Social standing and "class" do not necessarily accompany one another and all too frequently seem mutually excluding.

 

I think that a person who is gracious toward others will generally have at least acceptable table manners, etc., although they may not necessarily know which knife or fork to use or be dressed de rigeur. Nevertheless, give me this type of person any day over the properly attired boor with social standing and impeccable table manners.

 

May I sit at your table please.:)

[Opinions]

 

Are men in jackets but without ties usually admitted on Formal Nights? Yes. Does the ship-published "Welcome Aboard" guide define Formal Night, for men, as meaning minimally a "jacket and tie?" Yes. I'll have find it from my most recent cruise and scan it in.

 

Shouldn't the "Welcome Aboard" guide and the HAL web site define Formal Night the same?...The web site seems different to me but perhaps I am reading it wrong...When HAL last revised their dress code they could have easily said "Coat and Tie Required"...Instead it's "usually wear"...I follow the suggestions and the spirit of the code but I feel it must be difficult to enforce considering the way it is written.

[RevNeal]

Shouldn't the "Welcome Aboard" guide and the HAL web site define Formal Night the same?...The web site seems different to me but perhaps I am reading it wrong...When HAL last revised their dress code they could have easily said "Coat and Tie Required"...Instead it's "usually wear"...I follow the suggestions and the spirit of the code but I feel it must be difficult to enforce considering the way it is written.

 

I agree on nearly every point, and particularly on the issue of coordinating what is published aboard ship with what is published on the website.

 

That being said, have you ever diagramed a sentence? Here's the part of the code in question:

 

On festive Formal evenings, ladies usually wear a suit, cocktail dress or gown and gentlemen wear a jacket and tie, dark suit or tuxedo.

 

I could make a VERY strong argument, based upon the rules of diagraming, that "usually" is an adverb modifying what ladies wear, while what men wear is not modified. :) In other words, there is no "usually" modifying the verb "wear" following "gentlemen." HAD the sentence been written this way:

 

On festive Formal evenings, ladies usually wear a suit, cocktail dress or gown and gentlemen a jacket and tie, dark suit or tuxedo.

 

Then it would be totally unambiguous that the adverb "usually" and the verb "wear" apply to both women and men. But, inserting that pesky second occurrence of the verb "wear" without the adverb "usually" to modify it leaves open the strong grammatical interpretation that men are being told: "wear a jacket and tie, dark suit or tuxedo" ... no "usually" about it. :D

[RevNeal]

It has been my experience through life that some of the people that I have observed with the very best manners might be judged by some as to have no social standing and, therefore, no "class." On the other hand, some of the very worst manners I've ever observed were by people that many would judge as having social standing and, therefore, "class." Social standing and "class" do not necessarily accompany one another and all too frequently seem mutually excluding.

 

Where and when did issues like "social standing" and "class" get drafted into the question of manners, dress codes, and other such issues? Or, are we having problems with issues of nomenclature?

[Tamaracboy]

Sadly too many people's motto is "If you can't say anything nice about someone , come sit by me" :(

 

Ah, one of my favorite quotes from Alice Roosevelt Longworth (Princess Alice), daughter of one president and cousin of another. She even had it in needlepoint on her settee: “If you can’t say something good about someone, sit right here by me.”

 

r.

[jimmy2x]

Deleted

[m steve]

on our Feb Westerdam cruise we saw men w/o jacket in dr on formal night. As for people inappropriately dressed at a table is why we prefer a table for 2.

[luxurysailer]

Rev Neal, one of the first responses to this thread was by Kakalina, and I quote: "My momma always told me that one may notice a breach of manners, but one doesn't comment on it. The graciousness, she said, was the ability to make someone feel comfortable regardless of their social standing." I agree with that statement and thought it not inappropriate to expand upon it with my thoughts. I wasn't trying to hijack the thread but merely commenting upon what someone else said.

 

Discussions of failure to observe the dress codes are a dime a dozen. I, too, wish people would observe the dress codes; but I much prefer to be in the company of true gentlemen and ladies rather than obsess over the wording of the dress code and whether or not it is adhered to.

 

It is my feeling that a person with true "class" generally tries to obey rules rather than making a spectacle of themselves. So, I think a discussion of "class" is appropriate to the overall gist of this thread.

[RevNeal]

Rev Neal, one of the first responses to this thread was by Kakalina, and I quote: "My momma always told me that one may notice a breach of manners, but one doesn't comment on it. The graciousness, she said, was the ability to make someone feel comfortable regardless of their social standing." I agree with that statement and thought it not inappropriate to expand upon it with my thoughts. I wasn't trying to hijack the thread but merely commenting upon what someone else said.

 

Discussions of failure to observe the dress codes are a dime a dozen. I, too, wish people would observe the dress codes; but I much prefer to be in the company of true gentlemen and ladies rather than obsess over the wording of the dress code and whether or not it is adhered to.

 

It is my feeling that a person with true "class" generally tries to obey rules rather than making a spectacle of themselves. So, I think a discussion of "class" is appropriate to the overall gist of this thread.

 

I understand what you're saying. However, some people will use the terms "social standing" and "class" to reference people's economic conditions, education, nobility (i.e., ancestry), ethnicity, and other such matters, while others will use the two terms in a much less strict sense to reflect a simple willingness to observe social conventions. I can live with the second usage, but have strong objections to the first. So often those of us who enjoy Formal Nights are accused of having pretensions to any multiple of elements in the first usage: we're called "snobs," "stuffed shirts," and "Hyacinth Buckets." It is frequently assumed that because we enjoy Formal Nights -- and <horror of horrors> wish that other people would observe the simplest of conventions regarding those evenings -- we are going to be arrogant, rude, bores, pretentious, insufferable, class-conscious social climbers and wannabes who have no interests except in what people are wearing, do they know and follow the proper utensil-order at the table, are they rich, do they have connections with royalty or nobility or the rich and famous, etc. ad nauseam. I am, personally, very tired of such ad hominem caricatures.

[luxurysailer]

Thanks, Rev, you did an admirable job of expanding upon my thoughts. I was objecting to equating "class" with the things you mentioned: economic status, ancestry, education, etc. Some of the classiest people I have ever known (many being my ancestors and relatives) were of very humble economic means and not well educated. Truth be told, they would have looked out of place on a cruise ship, particularly on formal night. But one would have had to look far beneath what met the eye to judge the worth of these people.

[themerle]

I would do nothing if I noted it at all. I have never seen anyone ( other than the Maitre d') approach anyone re their dress or lack thereof.

 

My momma always told me that one may notice a breach of manners but one doesn't comment on it. True graciousness she said, was the ability to make anyone feel comfortable regardless of their social standing or lack thereof.

 

I'm with you! I've tried to teach my children the same rule on graciousness.

[m steve]

did something more than stand by the door and then wander around the dining room so it looks like he's doing something to earn those tips. Enforcing dress codes would be a start. We did have one recently come by to ask us if there was some dish we would like the kitchen to prepare that isn't on the menu. We did and he got more than the usual perfunctory tip. Maybe they need a pool manager who will enforce the rules on kids in the wrong pools and chair hogs. Just like a chart of dining tables, he could have one for the lounges and if no one uses it for 1 hour, just remove the contents and put it in a lost and found by the bar.

[gohabsgo]

The thing I cannot stand , and that goes anywhere were food is served, is people that show up at the food stations without a t-shirt/shirt . I find it disgusting to have a hairy bare chested man leaning over the food ...yuk. Same goes for hair flickers ... yuk.

 

I am sure the person showing up under dressed on formal nights might show outside bravado.... not so sure about how they feel inside...

 

On our only cruise we took (Freedom).... some guy showed up late ,in a torn tshirt, fuzzy slippers at the stand-up show and paraded in front to an empty seat.

 

The stand-up comedian turned to the guy and said : can I get you anything , like a shirt or a watch...... People laughed so hard , the guy was embarassed!