Lusitanica's EPIC REVIEW with pics, videos, comments, etc.

[DocJohnB]

[quote name='CanadianTwosome']Ummmm... this post confuses me. You seem to be referring to the atrium as a perfect example of someone 'disputing a fact if it doesn't agree with their agenda', but in the next sentence, you clearly state that you are speaking about an opinion... Generally I have found that your posts at least follow some sort of logic, but this one just doesn't (or at least I'm not seeing it).

I absolutely agree that facts are quantitative and measurable. They have nothing to do with how something 'feels' or whether someone's use of a particular descriptor is deemed 'appropriate' by someone else. By the same token, there are many posters who would like their opinions to be accepted as fact, but no amount of protesting and repetition will make them so. What I have seen on this thread (and others) is that certain statements were made as 'facts', when they were actually opinions - some even included words like 'feels' or 'seems'. Just because other posters share the same opinions, they are still simply opinions and not facts, and again no amount of repetition will change that.

The issue as I see it is that people believe their opinions. They come to these boards and feel that by sharing them - [COLOR="Red"]especially the negative ones[/COLOR] - they are helping others. When someone points out that what they are saying is only their opinion and may not apply to every passenger - often stating their differing experience as evidence - they feel like they're being accused of lying, but that is not the case. It's really frustrating when you've had a really fantastic time and loved a ship and someone comes and posts 'facts' that you know are NOT facts, because your perception was entirely different. The reality that two perceptions of the same thing are different is exactly what makes our subsequent beliefs about that thing OPINIONS. What makes it worse is that when the person tries to point that out - that since their experience left them with a different opinion, clearly it cannot be 'fact' - [COLOR="DarkOrchid"]they are accused of being a cheerleader, or lashing out because of their 'blind loyalty' to a cruiseline[/COLOR], as if there is no other explanation for not agreeing with the negative statement. It's easy to [I][B]read[/B][/I] 'that is not A FACT' and [I][B]feel[/B][/I] like it's saying 'that is not TRUE', but these are also completely different statements.

The bottom line is that we all need to acknowledge that we are only experts in our own perceptions. Just because our opinion of something seems so obvious to us that it feels like it should be shared by everyone, that doesn't mean it will - and I feel confident stating my belief that the odds that every person will ever share one common opinion is nil. Now, I think that is an incredibly obvious statement to the point where I would like to call it a fact, but I can't, because I have nothing to back it up with other than my life experience and personal observations. :o[/QUOTE]

[B][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="3"]Great post CanadianTwosome.

IMO you could have left out the red highlighted words because they can be applied to both positive and negative posters.

The same applies to the purple highlighted words. All one has to do is read a negative review/post and see the same (though opposite) lashing out at the poster (and this thread is a perfect example of that).
[/SIZE][/FONT][/B]

[lusitanica]

[quote name='CanadianTwosome']Ummmm... this post confuses me. You seem to be referring to the atrium as a perfect example of someone 'disputing a fact if it doesn't agree with their agenda', but in the next sentence, you clearly state that you are speaking about an opinion... Generally I have found that your posts at least follow some sort of logic, but this one just doesn't (or at least I'm not seeing it).

I absolutely agree that facts are quantitative and measurable. They have nothing to do with how something 'feels' or whether someone's use of a particular descriptor is deemed 'appropriate' by someone else. By the same token, there are many posters who would like their opinions to be accepted as fact, but no amount of protesting and repetition will make them so. What I have seen on this thread (and others) is that certain statements were made as 'facts', when they were actually opinions - some even included words like 'feels' or 'seems'.
Just because other posters share the same opinions, they are still simply opinions and not facts, and again no amount of repetition will change that.

Etc., etc......
[/quote]

I totally agree with these [I]abstract[/I] thoughts and accept these [I]as such[/I].

Unfortunately this is another example of repeated attempts to present [B]technical facts[/B] (someone is not happy with) in the form of "opinions" just because some posters are not willing to accept facts that do not match their imaginary glowing image of the ship.
These attepts will change nothing. FACTs about the ship in this review are documented and are FACTs. What one can see on photos and videos are FACTs.
Call them "opinions" 10 times, 100 times - they are FACTs.
[B]2x2=4 - this is not an opinion.[/B] Please accept this.

[quote]The bottom line is that we all need to acknowledge that we are only experts in our own perceptions.[/quote]

Fortunately NOT.
Fortunately many of us are educated and experienced enough to be able to tell technical facts from "perceptions", "opinions", "illusions" and so on related to cruise ships engineering and operation.
:)

[sdmike]

[quote name='lusitanica']

Call them "opinions" 10 times, 100 times - they are FACTs.
[/quote]

And allow me to add that opinions stated as fact 10 times, 100 times, etc. doesn't make them facts.

[sjbdtz]

[quote name='Mr. Luckytoo'] FACT: the frosted door on the toilet is translucent


What I do get upset about is certain posters who try and spin their opinions about a fact, like saying something that is tranlucent is in fact opaque.

[/quote]

How about THIS fact...the toilet door in Spa Suite #14151 is NOT translucent.

I can't really speak for the other 2,000+ cabins....but I spent a week in that one, including one time looking around the room for my partner, checking the balcony and simply not realizing he was in the toilet area, completely non-visible, with the light ON.

FACT.

-----------------------------------------------------




[quote name='PokerDave']Fact: This thread has been the most painful/upsetting thread for me in many years of following CC
Opinion: This thread will cause someone not to go on the epic who otherwise would have and would have thoroughly enjoyed it
Opinion: This thread will cause a number of people who do go on the Epic to question things more closely and take away from their cruise experience on the Epic
Opinion: This thread will also help some people avoid Epic who otherwise would have gone and not enjoyed it
Opinion: On balance, this thread is a net negative for the NCL forum on CC

Opinion: The OP had all of the above in mind before ever setting foot on the Epic[/quote]

Well said, Poker.

[DocJohnB]

[quote name='sdmike']And allow me to add that opinions stated as fact 10 times, 100 times, etc. doesn't make them facts.[/QUOTE]
[B][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="3"]C'mon Mike that is creative editing at its' best.

Lusitanica actually wrote:

[QUOTE][B]What one can see on photos and videos are FACTs.[/B]
Call them "opinions" 10 times, 100 times - they are FACTs.[/QUOTE]

Unless you have some solid evidence that his photos and videos were doctored, I accept them as fact . . . not opinion.
[/SIZE][/FONT][/B]

[lusitanica]

[quote name='Mr. Luckytoo']Unfortunately some people will dispute a fact if it doesn't agree with their agenda. Facts are quantative and measurable. People like to change the parameter(s) in order to 'make their case'.

A perfect example is the atrium on the Epic. A 3-story hole between floors is, in my opinion, not a soaring atrium. [/quote]


Just put two photos side by side (Epic atrium and a real atrium of a modern cruise ship).
Photos will tell almost everything.

[DocJohnB]

[quote name='sjbdtz']How about THIS fact...the toilet door in Spa Suite #14151 is NOT translucent.

I can't really speak for the other 2,000+ cabins....but I spent a week in that one, including one time looking around the room for my partner, checking the balcony and simply not realizing he was in the toilet area, completely non-visible, with the light ON.

FACT.

[/QUOTE]
[B][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="3"]
Perhaps, then, Stephen the problem is with what you observe. In every picture and video I have seen on these magically different doors, one is able to ascertain the diffused outline of an object on the other side of the glass.

definition (again):

transculent - [I][COLOR="Red"]permitting light to pass through but diffusing it so that persons, objects, etc., on the opposite side are not clearly visible: Frosted window glass is translucent but not transparent[/COLOR].[/I]

I have absolutely no reason or thought as to why you could not see your partner in the bathroom through the translucent door other than he wasn't there or you didn't look there. And that is merely an

opinion. [/SIZE][/FONT][/B]

[sdmike]

Do the RCI freedom and voyager class have "soaring atriums"? I think they have interior shopping malls instead. I also don't know what the Oasis class has as an atrium. I think these would also be considered modern cruise ships that are handling that central area a different way.

[babsinpbg]

[quote name='PokerDave']Fact: This thread has been the most painful/upsetting thread for me in many years of following CC
Opinion: This thread will cause someone not to go on the epic who otherwise would have and would have thoroughly enjoyed it
Opinion: This thread will cause a number of people who do go on the Epic to question things more closely and take away from their cruise experience on the Epic
Opinion: This thread will also help some people avoid Epic who otherwise would have gone and not enjoyed it
Opinion: On balance, this thread is a net negative for the NCL forum on CC

Opinion: The OP had all of the above in mind before ever setting foot on the Epic[/QUOTE]

I agree with you 100%. As an NCL first timer, my journey through not only this thread, but many others under NCL has been interesting. Seems the same handful of posters infect threads repeatedly with the same negativity and depressing posts.

There's something about this thread that makes me keep reading. I'm fascinated with the thought of spending vacation time dwelling on the negative instead of enjoying the positive.
I affectionately refer to this thread as the Michael Corleone of all threads. Every time I think I'm out.......it pulls me back in!

Gotta go pack for my awesome Epic cruise now. 7 days and counting :)

[sjbdtz]

[quote name='DocJohnB']
[B][SIZE=3][FONT=Comic Sans MS]Perhaps, then, Stephen the problem is with what you observe. In every picture and video I have seen on these magically different doors, one is able to ascertain the diffused outline of an object on the other side of the glass.[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]

[B][SIZE=3][FONT=Comic Sans MS]definition (again): [/FONT][/SIZE][/B]

[B][SIZE=3][FONT=Comic Sans MS]transculent - [I][COLOR=red]permitting light to pass through but diffusing it so that persons, objects, etc., on the opposite side are not clearly visible: Frosted window glass is translucent but not transparent[/COLOR].[/I][/FONT][/SIZE][/B]

[B][SIZE=3][FONT=Comic Sans MS]I have absolutely no reason or thought as to why you could not see your partner in the bathroom through the translucent door other than he wasn't there or you didn't look there. And that is merely an[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]

[B][SIZE=3][FONT=Comic Sans MS]opinion. [/FONT][/SIZE][/B][/quote]


Here, AGAIN, is a photo which does not conform to that description.

I took it myself, have not altered anything about it, and will swear that the degree of opacity was the same WITH light, as without it.

But all of these people who have either not been in that cabin, OR have not even been on the ship, telling me I don't know what I saw...is just wrong.

If Lusitanica knows what they saw, then so do I! :(

[URL]http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2170805540080057173GvXeZz[/URL]


As you can see, it is reflective, not transluscent. (and YES, the bathroom is occupied, at the time of that photo, by someone standing up just inside the door.)

[Mr. Luckytoo]

[quote name='DocJohnB']
[B][SIZE=3][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=5]transculent[/SIZE] - [I][COLOR=red]permitting light to pass through but diffusing it so that persons, objects, etc., on the opposite side are not clearly visible: [SIZE=5]Frosted window glass is translucent but not transparent[/SIZE][/COLOR].[/I][/FONT][/SIZE][/B][/quote]

Hey Doc did you know there is more than one definition for oqaque?

[B][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]o·paque[/SIZE][/FONT][/B]

[B][B][I][SIZE=2]–adjective [/SIZE][/I][/B][/B]


[COLOR=#333333]1. [/COLOR]not transparent or translucent; impenetrable to light; not allowing light to pass through.
[COLOR=#333333]2. [/COLOR]not transmitting radiation, sound, heat, etc.
[COLOR=#333333]3. [/COLOR]not shining or bright; dark; dull.
[COLOR=#333333]4. [/COLOR]hard to understand; not clear or lucid; obscure: [I]The problem remains opaque despite explanations. [/I]
[COLOR=#333333]5. [/COLOR]dull, stupid, or unintelligent.
[B][/B]
Ok I give up [B]something[/B] in room 14151 was opaque...

[Mr. Luckytoo]

[quote name='sdmike']Do the RCI freedom and voyager class have "soaring atriums"? I think they have interior shopping malls instead. I also don't know what the Oasis class has as an atrium. I think these would also be considered modern cruise ships that are handling that central area a different way.[/quote]


Well lets see:

Oasis of the Seas atrium:

[IMG]http://i51.tinypic.com/2vhuf14.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i54.tinypic.com/30svzwi.jpg[/IMG]

Now Epic's 'soaring' atrium's :

[IMG]http://i51.tinypic.com/jtxv6u.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i56.tinypic.com/2d0jujt.jpg[/IMG]

[jmcdon7230]

[quote name='babsinpbg']......I'm fascinated with the thought of spending vacation time dwelling on the negative instead of enjoying the positive....
[/quote]

Maybe it was a professional assignment and not a vacation. Just saying.

[PokerDave]

[quote name='babsinpbg']I agree with you 100%. As an NCL first timer, my journey through not only this thread, but many others under NCL has been interesting. Seems the same handful of posters infect threads repeatedly with the same negativity and depressing posts.

There's something about this thread that makes me keep reading. I'm fascinated with the thought of spending vacation time dwelling on the negative instead of enjoying the positive.
I affectionately refer to this thread as the Michael Corleone of all threads. Every time I think I'm out.......it pulls me back in!

Gotta go pack for my awesome Epic cruise now. 7 days and counting :)[/quote]

It's like that scab that is ALMOST healed, but yet again you scratch it off and it bleeds again...

[DocJohnB]

[quote name='Mr. Luckytoo']Hey Doc did you know there is more than one definition for oqaque?

[/B]
Ok I give up [B]something[/B] in room 14151 was opaque...[/QUOTE]
[B][SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]mmmm!!!! I absolutely agree.[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]

[LaWeezy]

I don't care what anyone says Lusitanica, you have spent a lot of hours on your review as well as finding many, many cruisers staterooms. I cannot believe your talent with the computer. I sure hope your position of employment involves something to do with your superior talent. I have only taken one cruise (NCL Sky), but if I ever go on another I am going to search you out and ask for your advise. Do you work for a cruise line or just obsessed by them? I hope people appreciate your talent and the time you spend giving cruise critic members your info.:)

[lusitanica]

Perhaps, then, Stephen the problem is...

 

I would simply skip that because the photo

http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2170805540080057173GvXeZz

 

is absolutely irrelevant to this discussion.:)

It does not matter what kind of doors suites have.

We are discussing standard balcony cabins.

[lusitanica]

 

What I meant to say is the Epic HAS an atrium - FACT and cannot be disputed. However when you add the word 'soaring' to the equation then it becomes more muddled. Soaring, to me, implies multiple stories, sometimes up to the top deck. For others 3 stories may meet their definition of soaring. However when I compare a 3 story narrow atrium to those on other ships I've sailed the atrium on the Epic is not as impressive. So the FACT is that the atrium exists but the opinion becomes when using the adjective to quantify the fact.

 

 

Agree.

Epic atrium looks miserable in comparison a real atrium on a ship 2 times smaller than Epic (link below)!

 

[sjbdtz]

I would simply skip that because the photo

http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2170805540080057173GvXeZz

 

is absolutely irrelevant to this discussion.:)

It does not matter what kind of doors suites have.

We are discussing standard balcony cabins.

 

 

No, we're discussing cabins on the EPIC.

 

You are not the only person in this conversation.

[sdmike]

Agree.

Epic atrium looks miserable in comparison a real atrium

 

Your opinion, which you are entitled to

[Mr. Luckytoo]

Agree.

Epic atrium looks miserable in comparison a real atrium on a ship 2 times smaller than Epic (link below)!

 

 

Your photo of the Carnival atrium is what I would use when describing a 'soaring atrium'. In fact I'd go as far as to say that the above photo is more typical of an atrium one would see on a more traditional ship.

 

I wouldn't use the word miserable when describing the Epic atrium. Smaller, and not as open; those are words I would use to describe the Epic atrium compared to that Carnival atrium.

 

I would also have to say that the atrium on the Epic is in fact a 'real atrium' just unlike those on other cruise ship as it has no elevators the atrium.

[lusitanica]

Cabin 11108 Would love to see *exactly* where this cabin is :confused: and where bed is ? Looks to me like it may have a larger balcony ?? So difficult to see on deck plans :rolleyes: Appreciate any help,,,,,,,

Happy Cruising.......

DonnaF :D

 

The bed is by the entrance (toilet, shower).

 

 

[intrepid_guy]

On the topic of atriums.

 

FACT: EPIC has an atrium

FACT: nost modern ships have an atrium

OPINION: "soaring" people's perception will differ.

 

OPINION: mine: atriums bear no concequences to me. I do not book a cruise to hang out in a "soaring" atrium. Who cares how tall it is?

 

HEARSAY: atriums are going by the wayside as a waste of valuable space.

OPINION: good riddance.

 

~Intrepid <-- would rather enjoy the view from his balcony than down into some silly atrium

[kerrytens]

On the topic of atriums.

 

 

~Intrepid <-- would rather enjoy the view from his balcony than down into some silly atrium

Me too:D

(gee, will this open a whole new can of worms:confused::eek:)

[Flying Solo]

Can anyone show me a reliable reference that shows "soaring" as an adjective? Soaring is a verb. If the Epic's atrium is actually soaring, then it will be flying around above the ship. This will definitely make this the most amazing boat I've ever been on!!! Can't wait! :eek: