can Europeans still book safely through US agencies

[sw1002]

Hi everyone,

we live in germany and have relatives in the states (texas), we have been to Princess first time last year and booked our 15 days panama canal cruise through an us agent found with ************* to be the best.

 

Everything went fine.

 

This year we booked our cruise for alaska 2011 and we've been said by some agencies they cant sell cruises to us because of Princess policy selling not to europeans over us agencies. The agent who finally took our order said that I have to give him a valid postal adress in the US - we gave him our relatives adress with my name as c/o.

 

The booking went through and appears now on the Princess website when I log in.

 

We wanted to go on another caribbean cruise with princess next spring - the same mess with another angency,

now my question:

 

-from your experience, will the second booking go through with the us adress we gave in the first booking?

-does princess need or want any proof of residentiality for that adress?

-can we be cancelled for any of these two bookings even the booking sucessfully was transferred to my cruise account on Princess

(the account details show the us adress not our adress in europe)

 

I'm very disappointed about this way we are treated by cwrtain cruiselines and though willing to pay good money have to trick around. My concern is that maybe we will be refused embarkation because of something I dont know ... does anyone of You have any experience of that.

 

Thanks in advance for any comments and advice. BTW booking these cruises in Europe is at least 25% more expensive than booking through an US agent.

[sw1002]

I filled the cruise personalizer with our personal information stating also that the country of residence is germany. I'm really interested what happens ... does anyone of You have experience filling in this forms and what happens next? As I remember when we filled our information in summer 2009 this question about resident adress and stuff like that was not asked during the personalisation process.

 

I'm asking because the caribbean cruise is a special to my dad and mom and I dont want that we travel 7000km to Florida and then are rejected boarding because of Princess' silly policy.

I'm not a big fan of CCL but if it happens to us been thrown away by Princess we are thinking about booking carnival for the alaskan cruise in july 2011.

[moniquet]

carnival/Cunard/HAL/RCCL now have the same policy:(

[sw1002]

so could we go with Norwegian ? do they allow to book from europe with us travel agents?

[spongerob]

You are going to find it more and more difficult to get around the differences in pricing. Cruising is a growning business in Europe and the cruise lines that operate there have to operate within EU rules...That probably includes some limitation on price competition with European cruise lines such as Thomson, AIDA, etc.

 

The cruise lines cannot knowingly allow foreign bookings, although some agents still skirt the system.

[Globaliser]

Cruising is a growning business in Europe and the cruise lines that operate there have to operate within EU rules...That probably includes some limitation on price competition with European cruise lines such as Thomson, AIDA, etc.

:confused: On the contrary, limits on price competition would almost certainly be illegal under EU anti-competitive behaviour rules.

[sw1002]

I´m again asking all UK citizens, continental Europeans and Aussies who been cruising with cruiselines this year or booked through US agents if they have experienced something in that way described here and on other sources (cancellation by cruiseline, being forced to rebook, deny of boarding)?

 

It´s a matter of time that some legal court will deal with that thing - but for me it´s a matter of go or no go, the price difference is about 1800 EUR for 4 people and an infant.

[spongerob]

:confused: On the contrary, limits on price competition would almost certainly be illegal under EU anti-competitive behaviour rules.

Are there not protections put in place against foreign competition? The limits you speak of would guard against collusion between competitors to keep pricing artificially high and are necessary; no argument there. I also believe that there are regulations that limit foreign competition - and protect local business such as travel agencies, etc. For example, no one can provide a good answer why citizens of the UK cannot recover a deposit made on a cruise if they have to cancel.

 

My point is, it is not Princess or Carnival or Royal Caribbean corporate policies to automatically charge people outside the US more simply because of their location. All these companies have a large enough footprint in the European marketplace that they must abide by the regulations in place for business conduct. The regulations increase cost and provide revenue to government agencies and friends of those government agencies. They cannot knowingly allow their customers to go around the system using an on-line US travel agency because they would run afoul of those regulations.

[JPRLHR]

I´m again asking all UK citizens, continental Europeans and Aussies who been cruising with cruiselines this year or booked through US agents if they have experienced something in that way described here and on other sources (cancellation by cruiseline, being forced to rebook, deny of boarding)?

 

It´s a matter of time that some legal court will deal with that thing - but for me it´s a matter of go or no go, the price difference is about 1800 EUR for 4 people and an infant.

 

I would without question book via the US T/A. We have continued to do so alongwith many other people without even so much as a raised eyebrow.

 

Furthermore, the US agency I book with is run by a persoanl English friend of mine who would not dream of taking my money if he felt either we were or he was running any risk.

[Globaliser]

Are there not protections put in place against foreign competition? The limits you speak of would guard against collusion between competitors to keep pricing artificially high and are necessary; no argument there. I also believe that there are regulations that limit foreign competition - and protect local business such as travel agencies, etc.

One has to be careful to distinguish between a number of different things.

 

First, travel agents provide a service; they act as the intermediary between the consumer and the service provider (eg airline, cruise line or hotel). There is no protection for “local businesses”. Anyone is free to come and set up a travel agent business, and many of the biggest travel agents here are US-owned.

 

Second, the way that a travel agent conducts its business is regulated to some extent. So, for example, most travel agents belong to one or more bonding schemes which ensure that the customer’s money, if placed with the travel agent as part-payment (eg deposits), can be recovered by the customer if the travel agent becomes insolvent. It does tend to increase the costs of operating such a business in Europe. But these regulations apply to all travel agents conducting business in Europe, irrespective of ownership. So there’s no protection for “local businesses” here, and it’s nothing to do with limiting foreign competition; the protection is of the consumer against cowboy outfits.

 

Third, service providers in some fields do have to be “European”. The foremost example is airlines. For example, any “domestic” flight between two EU points is normally operable by EU airlines only, and any departure from that is an exception to the rule. But this is not really European protectionism; rather, it’s a consequence of the structure of the whole civil air transport industry set up by the Chicago Convention in 1944. You see the same thing in the US, where the US will not normally allow non-US airlines to operate any routes between two US points.

 

However, this third point does not affect cruise lines (or ships). As we can see from any list of itineraries, non-EU cruise lines (or ships) are able to operate itineraries wholly within the EU. There is no protection – price or otherwise – for EU cruise lines (or ships) for these itineraries. There are some consequences if the itinerary does not leave the EU, for example with VAT being chargeable on onboard purchases. But that applies equally to EU and non-EU cruise lines (or ships). After all, some EU cruise lines operate non-EU ships, for the same reason that there are virtually no US ships in the mainstream cruising market.

 

Fourth, there are rules that apply to service providers of certain types of travel. Notably, there are specific protections applicable where a service provider sells a travel package. Typically, this is air plus hotel in the form of the seven-nights-in-a-Benidorm-fleapit. This is the protection that secured full refunds for those who couldn’t get to their cruises because of the volcanic ash earlier this year.

 

But again, this is nothing to do with limiting foreign competition. Foreign service providers (eg non-EU cruise lines) are free to sell such travel packages in Europe, provided that they adhere to the same rules. And they do this.

 

So the short answer to your question is, I think, “no”. For the purposes of this topic, I don't believe that there are any “protections put in place against foreign competition”.

For example, no one can provide a good answer why citizens of the UK cannot recover a deposit made on a cruise if they have to cancel.

This has simply been a UK industry standard since time immemorial. It flows from the standard position in contract law: If you make a contract to purchase for forward delivery and the contract stipulates that you pay a deposit at the time the contract is entered into, and you later decide to cancel the contract, you forfeit the deposit.

 

Obviously, a contract can expressly stipulate differently – which is what US cruise line contracts do. But the UK position isn’t particularly odd, and I believe that this is where it comes from. You can come across the same thing if you order a bed or a car and you cancel because you’ve simply changed your mind. (Or, for that matter, airlines all over the world come across that if they order shiny new aircraft from Airbus or Boeing, and then decide to cancel their orders.)

They cannot knowingly allow their customers to go around the system using an on-line US travel agency because they would run afoul of those regulations.

And this is the bit where it all gets very murky, every time.

 

If this were actually true, and if there were some law or regulation that makes the non-EU cruise lines liable under the more expensive EU rules, even if they have sold the cruise in the US, then why don’t the cruise lines just come out and say so? It would be the easiest thing in the world for them to put the blame where it belongs. All they need to say is: “We have to charge you more because you live in Europe, and wherever we sell the cruise to you we are going to be subject to European rules which make it more expensive for us to do business with you”.

 

But every time the cruise lines are asked, they just come out with a different pile of unconvincing flannel which does not address this issue.

 

And if this were actually true, then how is it that some other big companies which have big European footprints – I’m thinking about the big US airlines – are perfectly happy to sell travel services (eg air tickets) to Europeans for travel either inside or outside the EU, including travel that falls within the package travel rules, without ever raising this point? Have they missed a big liability? Or are they in fact correct that if the travel is sold in the US, then it’s not subject to European rules?

 

Personally, the combination of these two factors suggests to me that the cruise lines’ flannel is simply covering up exactly that which you don’t believe, namely that it is Princess or Carnival or Royal Caribbean corporate policies to automatically charge people outside the US more simply because of their location. They have us by the short and curlies because they are able to do so by reference to the passengers’ address, and they are simply exploiting that ability for more revenue.

 

If it isn’t true, then let them come here (or anywhere) and (a) deny it; and (b) tell us in words of one syllable why this is justified and/or required.

[juggles]

if you've put your address as USA, you'll be asked later for proof of residency/green card etc, much later almost near the time of cruise

[Nylsor]

I recently made enquiries with a large US on-line TA. This was the reply I received. Seems pretty comprehensive and explanatory.

 

 

Thanks for your e-mail to ************, requesting that we contact you about **************

If you are a citizen of the U.S. or Canada, have a residence in the U.S. or Canada, or travel on a U.S. or Canadian passport, we can help you with any cruise we offer.

Unfortunately, Costa, Cunard, Holland America, MSC, Oceania, Princess and Star Clippers now prohibit all U.S. travel agencies from selling cruises to citizens of countries other than the United States and Canada, unless they have a residence in the U.S. or Canada.

We truly regret that we are not allowed to offer these cruise lines to all of our international customers. This is not a matter of international law or a policy of ************or the U.S. government. Rather, it is a corporate policy instituted by each of these cruise lines.

[JPRLHR]

if you've put your address as USA, you'll be asked later for proof of residency/green card etc, much later almost near the time of cruise

 

I have never been asked for proof of residency and according to my TA, I won't be either.

 

I recently made enquiries with a large US on-line TA. This was the reply I received. Seems pretty comprehensive and explanatory.

 

Thanks for your e-mail to ************, requesting that we contact you about **************

If you are a citizen of the U.S. or Canada, have a residence in the U.S. or Canada, or travel on a U.S. or Canadian passport, we can help you with any cruise we offer.

Unfortunately, Costa, Cunard, Holland America, MSC, Oceania, Princess and Star Clippers now prohibit all U.S. travel agencies from selling cruises to citizens of countries other than the United States and Canada, unless they have a residence in the U.S. or Canada.

We truly regret that we are not allowed to offer these cruise lines to all of our international customers. This is not a matter of international law or a policy of ************or the U.S. government. Rather, it is a corporate policy instituted by each of these cruise lines.

 

I don't use an online T/A, they're a regular high street agency.

[antsp]

if you've put your address as USA, you'll be asked later for proof of residency/green card etc, much later almost near the time of cruise

Rubbish, your telling me every us booking has to be backed up with a proof of residency

[juggles]

Rubbish, your telling me every us booking has to be backed up with a proof of residency

 

 

It's not rubbish. I was asked before my last cruise to give proof of residency or green card by email. I then went into my personal details and put my UK address and it was ok. I don't talk rubbish

If you are a UK citizen and giving an American address, they will question that.....that's if it's a cruise out of the Europe area

[antsp]

ok i guess its not rubbish, but you did say if you put a us address you will be asked for proof, are you saying once booked its ok to change to a uk address when using a us ta

[juggles]

ok i guess its not rubbish, but you did say if you put a us address you will be asked for proof, are you saying once booked its ok to change to a uk address when using a us ta

 

 

I don't know, sorry, I didn't use a TA

[sw1002]

We've been booking all our cruises from 2007-2009 through several us agencies and gave always our true german adress as residential and have never been asked about proofing us residential status, but maybe that just changed in mid 2010 - does anybody really know if? or is that only estimating and guessing about the proof - i mean did anyobe of you really experuence that?

[Toto2Kansas]

It's not rubbish. I was asked before my last cruise to give proof of residency or green card by email. I then went into my personal details and put my UK address and it was ok. I don't talk rubbish

If you are a UK citizen and giving an American address, they will question that.....that's if it's a cruise out of the Europe area

 

We have friends that are Australian and live in Sydney that ran into some problems on their last cruise. They had booked through a US agent and used a US address. Princess warned them at that time that they were going to be tightening up those booking through the U.S. when their home address, and passport were from a country that is not supposed to book through agents in the US. I guess only time will tell if they crack down on this or not. From what they were told by Princess (I am just sharing what they told me) is that when they board the ship one of these days they will have to pay the difference right on the spot between the US price and the Australian price if they get caught, or could have their cruise cancelled because of booking where they were not supposed to book. Keep in mind again, this is what they passed along to me.

[juggles]

my cruise early 2009 was set up by an American friend, then I had to go in and fill in details....passport number/Visa card number etc. When it came to my address, it wouldn't let me put a UK one in as it asked for a zip code and the UK is post code, so I filled the American's address in at that point. A week or two before the cruise I got the email asking for proof of USA residency#or green card in the USA. I ignored it, then a week later I got another email. Panicking I then went into my personal details again and what I didn't realize the first time is that you click on the last part of the address first and select the country, in my case the UK, I was then able to fill in my address and all was ok from that point. I didn't get another email from them.

 

To SW1002....if you put your German address, that should be ok. I'm talking if someone puts an American address as their address, they will be asked for proof of residency

[spongerob]

Personally, the combination of these two factors suggests to me that the cruise lines’ flannel is simply covering up exactly that which you don’t believe, namely that it is Princess or Carnival or Royal Caribbean corporate policies to automatically charge people outside the US more simply because of their location. They have us by the short and curlies because they are able to do so by reference to the passengers’ address, and they are simply exploiting that ability for more revenue.

I've often suggested that although there might be regulations that they are forced to abide by, it doesn't mean that they don't also profit from those rules. I have no more love for corporate leaders than I do political leaders. They're cut from the same cloth in my opinion. Mostly, that is.

 

My real issue with all this is that people don't ask the questions they should be asking, but instead just come here and complain that they are being treated unfairly. All the questions you ask, and they are good questions, should also be asked of the regulators, enforcers, watchdogs, and whomever else is in charge of playing field. Whose self interest is being served, how, and by whom? Regardless, it's the consumer that picks up the tab.

 

If this were actually true, and if there were some law or regulation that makes the non-EU cruise lines liable under the more expensive EU rules, even if they have sold the cruise in the US, then why don’t the cruise lines just come out and say so?

Because you don't bite the hand that feeds you. Especially if the other hand has a leash around your neck.

 

Back to OP's question, the problem is one of compliance with varying regulations that exist in different parts of the world. Let's assume that Princess cannot knowingly accept a booking from you unless it comes through a EU-based travel agent. You can trick the system and find a US-based agency, but when you provide information that suggests that the United States address is not actually your residence, you put Princess in an uncomfortable position with regards to your booking.

 

If just a few people do as you, then Princess can claim something we call plausible deniability if questioned by EU regulators. If it's more than just a few, they have to make a policy for their agents.

[antsp]

A temping check in agent really cares where you live and where you book when your passenger number 2376 they have seen that morning

[sw1002]

So it turns out that if you find an us TA who books you with a valid US adress for example of your relatives, and if that booking is confirmed and appears in the cruise personalizer you can change the personal details and fill the cruise personalizer with your home country data and passport nr, and there wont be any checks through princess concerning proof of us-residential status?

 

That turns out to be logical assuming that for example you can be booking being us resident and in the meanwhile between booking move to another country...

 

Sorry for estimating so much, i just try to read between the lines....

[Colo Cruiser]

A temping check in agent really cares where you live and where you book when your passenger number 2376 they have seen that morning

 

 

What??

[antsp]

What im saying is does the person checking you in at the port really care, all they want to do is get you checked in and on board