Poor Heathrow

[world~citizen]

It appears Heathrow may not be able to clear passengers before Christmas. :eek:

 

When it come to Christmas travel, does Heathrow exist under some kind of curse?

 

If it isn't labour action, its weather. As if to add insult to injury, Unite is supposed to have begun a strike ballot today.

 

This is exactly the sort of thing nobody ever believes.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/20/heathrow-chaos-snow-forecast

 

Smooth sailing...

[wrp96]

It appears Heathrow may not be able to clear passengers before Christmas. :eek:

 

Check the RCCL board, a friend got of Brilliance in Barcelona on Friday and is now stuck in London. She might get home by Christmas Day.

[UKBayern]

The British are having a lot more problems than the rest of Europe - as usual. I think the Brits have already heard all kinds of nonsense in the past like "the wrong type of leaves" preventing trains to run. They are just not prepared, they never are. In other European countries under worse conditions, everything is still up and running, be it with delays. In Britain no investment in proper equipment was made. It is beyond ridiculous that a lot of police or ambulance vehicles don't even have winter tyres in the UK.

[new salt]

Not entirely correct UKBayern. Brussels is closed due to a lack of de-icing fluid which will not be delivered until Wednesday. As for the wrong kind of leaves, that is not correct, any kind of leaf will suffice to bring the Southern trains to a grinding halt. I think you are thinking of the wrong kind of snow a few years back when the railway system was, according to a spokesman, perfectly prepared for the right kind of snow but the wrong type was delivered.

 

If you want to see how to handle airports in winter, visit Helsinki. The same goes for their roads and the city footpaths.

[SwissDave]

Perhaps Heathrow, & most other UK airports, struggle to cope in this type of weather is because it happens so rarely? Only 3 or 4 days every 3 or 4 years.

 

If people would like to have the same equipment that Helsinki, or Oslo, have to cope with the year in year out several feet of snow they get, then be prepared for airfares to go up as the airports add on additional charges to pay for all that equipment.

 

It is not correct to say that UK are having worse problems than rest of Europe. Geneva was closed for 2 days last week and for many hours this week due to snow. There are many delays today in Frankfurt, Paris, Brussels and many other airports. Have you not seen the news with all the camp beds set out for people to sleep on as the flights were cancelled?

[new salt]

I have just lifted this comparison from another (aviation) board;

 

Total land area :

 

Helsinki - 1,700 acres

Heathrow - 1,227 acres

 

Helsinki 38% larger land area

 

...

 

Total runway length :

 

Helsinki (3 runways) - 9,401 metres

Heathrow (2 runways) - 7,561 metres

 

Helsinki 24% more runway distance to clear.

 

...

 

I suppose there's one more statistic.

 

Master snow-handling plans :

 

Helsinki - 1

Heathrow - 0

 

WE have just seen the CEO of BAA on television saying ''Lessons will be learnt and 'we have never had snow like this in my lifetime' He must think that the rest of us came down the Clyde on a water biscuit. He was certainly around in 1962 when the country was hit for a couple of months and there are plenty of other examples of winter induced chaos through my lifetime. He claims that BAA spent £6M on snow clearing equipment this year while forgetting to mention that BAA made a profit of £1 Billion from the long suffering public. By my reckoning that is 0.6% of their profit spent on required equipment - I wonder what there bonuses were. Wonderful, be grateful you travelling plebs and lay back down on the floor and be quiet. I wonder what their bonuses were.

 

It is time for the CAA to get a grip on these airports and their greedy, retail obsessed owners and impose snow and de-icing capacities the way they do for Fire and Crash services. The chaos in the UK is costing the nation £1B a day and untold misery for travellers.

 

I note that at Gatwick, in meteorological terms almost next door to Heathrow, the ground staff have done a good job in keeping the airport going. No doubt this has nothing to do with BAA having been forced to divest themselves of Gatwick earlier.

[fbgd]

BAA are a bunch of fools, this is the latest round of monumental cock ups.

 

I'm trying to fly to the UK on Thursday and hearing they turned down the offer of assistance from the armed forces to clear the runway made me :mad:

[new salt]

That is a bit hard on fools, fbgd, but since it is before the watershed I will desist from airing my description of them. I have just picked up from an aviation site that a major weather system is building up over California, that will hit the UK and Europe in 10 days with a lot more inches of global warming. We are travelling from Spain to Gatwick Thursday morning. The last two days the flight has been cancelled, but I am more concerned about getting home on Boxing Day than the family Christmas.

[world~citizen]

Heathrow seems to be showing signs of life, but apparently there is more weather coming and some pax still may not get home for Christmas.

 

It is nice to see the hotels do their bit. It seems room rates are up 300 percent - no doubt to serve the traveling public better. :eek:

 

http://www.caterersearch.com/Articles/2010/12/22/336460/Airport-hotels-cash-in-on-freezing-weather.htm

[SwissDave]

New Salt, the other board (wonder if its the same one I belong to...) missed one important comparison

 

Average snowfall Helsinki : 30 inches

Average snowfall Heathrow: 2 inches

 

As Heathrow/London does not usually get any snow year after year then of course they do not have the equipment such as Helsinki does to clear the airport, so when there is an unusual amount then of course there are going to be issues.

 

If people want to compare airports then it should be like for like (Heathrow-Frankfurt, Heathrow-Paris CDG etc)

[Hlitner]

The situation at Heathrow is very sad indeed. Reading through various English newspapers brings an interesting tale to light. The Science Minister and other British scientists (and pseudo scientists) now blame global warming for the snow and cold weather just like they blame global warming for warm weather, wet weather, dry weather, cold weather, lower birth rate, higher birth rate, etc etc. According to an article in the Guardian, the management of Heathrow and the English government have refused to invest the money to buy needed snow plows, deicing equipment, deicer, etc. Their logic is that since England does not get many snow storms, these storms never come in clusters and its just not a good use of funds there is no reason to have equipment sitting unused in a "depot." Of course the reality is that Heathrow has been hit with major delays (due to snow) for three years in a row, millions of travelers have been inconvenienced, and British Air has lost more money in a single day of snow delays than the cost of buying decent snow removal equipment for Heathrow.

 

Hank

[AmoMondo]

The situation at Heathrow is very sad indeed. Reading through various English newspapers brings an interesting tale to light. The Science Minister and other British scientists (and pseudo scientists) now blame global warming for the snow and cold weather just like they blame global warming for warm weather, wet weather, dry weather, cold weather, lower birth rate, higher birth rate, etc etc. According to an article in the Guardian, the management of Heathrow and the English government have refused to invest the money to buy needed snow plows, deicing equipment, deicer, etc. Their logic is that since England does not get many snow storms, these storms never come in clusters and its just not a good use of funds there is no reason to have equipment sitting unused in a "depot." Of course the reality is that Heathrow has been hit with major delays (due to snow) for three years in a row, millions of travelers have been inconvenienced, and British Air has lost more money in a single day of snow delays than the cost of buying decent snow removal equipment for Heathrow.

 

Hank

 

I completely agree.

 

I could accept their reasoning for not having invested in equipment 2 years ago, as it had been a long time since we'd had bad weather. However it doesn't make any sense at all now. If the British economy is losing £1bn a day, then surely this justifies not only the investment in infrastructure to keep our airports open, but also our trains running and roads open. For 3 weeks this month, I've had no mail service because of the state of the road. 12 of those days, yes it was impassable other than by 4WD, but not so the others. The Post office just seem to give up if there is a bit of snow or ice around - likewise other services.

This will be the first time in 50 years that my parents will be spending Christmas alone because of the weather. Were we better prepared to deal with the situation we find ourselves in, this would not be necessary.

[new salt]

Sorry, Swiss Dave, but that doesn't cut it with me. The UK is enduring a series of hard winters with one pre-eminent (private) forecaster anticipating a good many more. His forecasts hit 85% accuracy and put our met office to shame. Yes, Helsinki knows that it will get snow and prepares accordingly but the UK hopes for the best and does not prepare, it is all about the bottom line with BAA and pax and airlines can go hang. The thing about Helsinki is that the moment that snow, even the lightest fall, occurs they swing into action because one thing they know is that if you delay it will quite literally get on top of you. This is true of their roads and pavements, they treat snow as the enemy it is. I can remember many winters when this has happened and thousands have been trapped at airports and on motorways. Apart from the warmist bandits, the wretched greens have much to answer for, having successfully blocked the use of Urea from use on airfields, which we used to use to great effect.

 

However, I am off to Gatwick tomorrow morning, BAA are not going to enjoy the comparisons made with Gatwick and others in the coming enquiry.

 

Happy Christmas to all (except the board of BAA who deserve to be snowed in at a departure hall)

[Hlitner]

In the interest of being fair to our European friends, we also have airport issues here in the USA similar to what is happening at Heathrow. Our problem airport is Atlanta (one of the busiest in the world) where the airport authority has seen fit not to make major investements to handle severe cold weather. Just the threat of snow is enough to send Atlanta into total shock! As an example, Delta Airlines (the main airline of ATL) cancelled more than 500 flights today (they actually did this yesterday afternoon) because of the "threat" of a snow storm. Today the airport has some rain, there are no flight delays, and there are very few Delta flights (since they were cancelled). Two years ago we were stuck in Atlanta for 2 days because they had 3 inches of snow! The attitude at ATL is that they seldom get snow or cold weather so no need to prepare! Hmmmmm. Wonder if BAA is running that airport too :)

 

Hank

[MortgageChick]

LOng time since they had bad weather? They have very short memories. Seems to me that Heathrow was shut down last year just before Christmas as was most of Europes airports.

I flew into Heathrow on Dec 17th last year to overnight for a morning flight to Barcelona. I was told by BA staff I may not be flying out int he morning, as they were expecting 2 inches of snow! My response," give me a broom and I will help you sweep the runway"

We got out about 3 hours before it started snowing. The same weather that shut down the London to Paris Trains, and most of Northern Europe. Caused many people to miss the sailing we were on. Many did nt get their luggage untiul 4 days before the end of a 14 day cruise.

I think that with the change in global weather it should be apparent to the UK that they had better be prepared for the worst and hope for the best.

[fbgd]

I think that with the change in global weather it should be apparent to the UK that they had better be prepared for the worst and hope for the best.

 

Oh jeepers...:rolleyes:

[iancal]

My comparator would be Gatwick. IMHO, LHR has extremely poor management and ownership. It is simply a matter of making the capital investment needed to have the snow clearing equipment in place and the staff trained. Gatwick did. And it should be noted that Gatwick shared the same owners until recently. The new owner/operators of Gatwick are the ones who make a decision to invest in snow removal equipment. This is not rocket science. It is just good management and operational management.

[Globaliser]

I note that at Gatwick, in meteorological terms almost next door to Heathrow, the ground staff have done a good job in keeping the airport going. No doubt this has nothing to do with BAA having been forced to divest themselves of Gatwick earlier.

My comparator would be Gatwick. IMHO, LHR has extremely poor management and ownership. It is simply a matter of making the capital investment needed to have the snow clearing equipment in place and the staff trained. Gatwick did. And it should be noted that Gatwick shared the same owners until recently. The new owner/operators of Gatwick are the ones who make a decision to invest in snow removal equipment. This is not rocket science. It is just good management and operational management.

Ah, yes: Gatwick.

 

Would this be the same Gatwick that had to shut for two days earlier in December because of snow, when Heathrow kept going with minimal delays?

 

None of this binary "all good on one side; all bad on the other" argument is very illuminating.

 

While we're at it, why don't we have a go at Heathrow for charging arriving international passengers to use baggage trolleys, and requiring them to put local coins in the trolleys? Isn't that outrageous?

[iancal]

Fortunately, we only have to frequent LHR when London is our destination or point of departure.

 

For the past several years we have avoided LHR whenever possible-even if it means slightly longer travel time or more expense. From our perspective, it is a disaster.

[new salt]

To be fair Globaliser, Gatwick had ordered 6 sets of snow clearance equipment but only 2 had been delivered at the time the snow hit - the rest was stranded on the continent - by snow! BAA's Spanish owners were only interested in sucking as much money out of the system as possible to fund their hugely leveraged purchase of BAA. Perhaps the purchase of such critical national facilities should have strictures on the proportion of debt in the purchase price (Like old fashioned house mortgage requirements)

 

And yes, the luggage trolley fee is a further disgrace, I wonder what other joys lie in the future; we also avoid Heathrow if at all possible.

[Globaliser]

To be fair Globaliser, Gatwick had ordered 6 sets of snow clearance equipment but only 2 had been delivered at the time the snow hit - the rest was stranded on the continent - by snow! BAA's Spanish owners were only interested in sucking as much money out of the system as possible to fund their hugely leveraged purchase of BAA. Perhaps the purchase of such critical national facilities should have strictures on the proportion of debt in the purchase price (Like old fashioned house mortgage requirements)

Certainly, the way that Ferrovial purchased BAA has led to some seriously unwelcome consequences, and Heathrow has suffered much as a result.

 

But criticism is still best when it's accurate. And pointing to Gatwick's snow clearance equipment doesn't really advance matters if (as appears to be the case) it wasn't a lack of equipment at Heathrow that was the problem in dealing with the 18 December snowfall. Heathrow had dealt perfectly well with snowfall earlier in the month, at a time when Gatwick was overwhelmed.

 

The problem at Heathrow seems to have been that the continuing cold weather after that snowfall depleted its stock of anti-icing fluids (and you can't use salt at airports), so that by the time of the 18 December there were no reserves left - and thus Heathrow was in the same position as Brussels (as already mentioned above). Those problems would seem to have little to do with a lack of snow clearance equipment. We may find that it wasn't so much the snow that was the problem, but the very long period of very cold weather - unprecedented in Heathrow's history.

 

But facts will always be inconvenient for those who want to ritually kick Heathrow every time something goes wrong there, while ignoring or excusing similar problems at other airports - which provided plenty of opportunities during the same period of bad weather.

[Globaliser]

And yes, the luggage trolley fee is a further disgrace, I wonder what other joys lie in the future; we also avoid Heathrow if at all possible.

So will you avoid Gatwick too, for this "disgrace"?

 

Because my post contained a deliberate inaccuracy: It is Gatwick that is now fleecing the arriving international passenger in this way, not Heathrow.

 

I wonder how many think it's quite OK and perfectly excusable for Gatwick to do so, but it would be outrageous if Heathrow did it.

[spongerob]

Because my post contained a deliberate inaccuracy: It is Gatwick that is now fleecing the arriving international passenger in this way, not Heathrow.

Well thank goodness! One of the things I really appreciated my first time through Heathrow was the availability of luggage carts at the baggage claim area. It made me feel welcomed.

[new salt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by new salt

And yes, the luggage trolley fee is a further disgrace, I wonder what other joys lie in the future; we also avoid Heathrow if at all possible.

 

 

Globaliser said

 

"So will you avoid Gatwick too, for this "disgrace"?

 

Because my post contained a deliberate inaccuracy: It is Gatwick that is now fleecing the arriving international passenger in this way, not Heathrow.

 

I wonder how many think it's quite OK and perfectly excusable for Gatwick to do so, but it would be outrageous if Heathrow did it."

 

 

My wife and I arrived at Gatwick on the 23rd December, fortunately with hand baggage only, but returning on the 26th we had luggage but happily it was wheeled. Nonetheless, I saw plenty of people with luggage trolleys land-side and no sign of them being gently sheared, but then I wasn't looking! However, my observation is valid; it is a deplorable practise for inbound pax, wherever. And yes, wherever practicable, I would avoid major UK airports, to the extent we have taken the train or driven/sailed in preference to the cheaper air option when time is not at a premium. We will continue to use alternative airheads for long-haul wherever possible. Air travel is becoming increasingly unpleasant for a variety of reasons and dismal, greedy management are exacerbating matters.

[sunshine nana]

What terminal does Delta land at from JFK to Heathrow? Sorry to change the subject, but not allowed to start a new thread. Does anyone know what hotel would be most convenient to get to cheaply from whatever terminal it is? I read that there is a Hilton that is reachable by raised walkway like Copenhagen, but not sure which terminal.Also we want to go into London from the hotel.Thanks