JONES ACT AND b2b or consecutive cruises

[BumperII]

Just ran into a new twist. We want to book the Maasdam out of Ft. Lauderdale relocation cruise to Montreal. Then we want to book the Montreal to Boston cruise immediately following, effectively making this a 20 day cruise.

TA just sent me an email that they can't book this as a back to back because that would violate the Jones Act.

Has anyone ever run into this one before?

RSVP

[richwmn]

This comes up regularly around repositioning cruises. The correct title of the act involved is the Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA) and applies to airlines as well.

 

In short, no foreign flagged vessel can transport a passenger between points in the US without a stop in a far foreign port (defined as a point outside North America, Central America and the Caribbean basin). Search the forums for PSVA for many discussions about this.

 

Rich

[SJSULIBRARIAN]

Yes, we tried to do this very same itinerary this year and HAL would not book it for us citing the Passenger Services Act. It's too bad because the two cruises have a really nice itinerary.

 

Barbara

[califgary]

This comes up regularly around repositioning cruises. The correct title of the act involved is the Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA) and applies to airlines as well.

 

In short, no foreign flagged vessel can transport a passenger between points in the US without a stop in a far foreign port (defined as a point outside North America, Central America and the Caribbean basin). Search the forums for PSVA for many discussions about this.

 

Rich

 

We are on a cruise from San Francisco to Hawaii roundtrip and on the way back the ship stops in Ensenada Mexico (about 60 miles south of San Diego) - this is the only foreign port.

[KirkNC]

I think the difference is your cruise is all one cruise, the others start a new cruise in Canada.

 

Kirk

[richwmn]

We are on a cruise from San Francisco to Hawaii roundtrip and on the way back the ship stops in Ensenada Mexico (about 60 miles south of San Diego) - this is the only foreign port.

 

What cruise line, ship and date? Sometimes the bookings are allowed, only to be followed by a message 30 - 60 days out that the trip violates the PVSA and you will have to cancel part of the trip

 

Rich

[NMLady]

What cruise line, ship and date? Sometimes the bookings are allowed, only to be followed by a message 30 - 60 days out that the trip violates the PVSA and you will have to cancel part of the trip

 

Rich

 

1. Theirs is all one cruise, not a b2b.

 

2. They are returning to the same port from where they sailed so they are not being transported from one US port to another.

 

We did that same cruise, but from San Diego instead of from San Francisco.

[richwmn]

misread the post -- sorry -- it is a round trip and therefore ok..

 

Rich

[Jemima]

We are on a cruise from San Francisco to Hawaii roundtrip and on the way back the ship stops in Ensenada Mexico (about 60 miles south of San Diego) - this is the only foreign port.

 

This is a round trip cruise so it only requires a foreign port. A cruise (or multiple leg cruise) that starts in one US port and ends in another requires a "distant port".

[sfels]

This comes up regularly around repositioning cruises. The correct title of the act involved is the Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA) and applies to airlines as well.

 

In short, no foreign flagged vessel can transport a passenger between points in the US without a stop in a far foreign port (defined as a point outside North America, Central America and the Caribbean basin). Search the forums for PSVA for many discussions about this.

 

Rich

 

It doesn't actually have to be a far foreign port. For instance, the Alaska cruises out of Seattle make a stop in Victoria to meet the requirement of a foreign port.

[richwmn]

It doesn't actually have to be a far foreign port. For instance, the Alaska cruises out of Seattle make a stop in Victoria to meet the requirement of a foreign port.

 

The cruises out of Seattle are round trip, for which a "near" port suffices. They do not transport a passenger from one city to another

 

Rich

[maxout]

It doesn't actually have to be a far foreign port. For instance, the Alaska cruises out of Seattle make a stop in Victoria to meet the requirement of a foreign port.

 

That only applies because it is returning to the same US Port. So it isn't required to be a "distant" port. If it left from Seattle and returned to San Diego, Victoria would NOT meet that requirement. If the OP's 2nd leg ended back in Ft Lauderdale the PVSA would not be violated as the cruise did stop in Canadian ports.

[serendipity1499]

It doesn't actually have to be a far foreign port. For instance, the Alaska cruises out of Seattle make a stop in Victoria to meet the requirement of a foreign port.

 

Forget it my question was answered by Rich & maxout, the cruise is returning to the same port..../SIZE]

Check out Bruce Muzz's, who happens to be a Cruise Line Officer for many years, post about the PVSA Act last July..

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1232270&page=2

 

BTW..Many Posters, Travel Agents & even heard some cruise line Personnel, who erroneously call this the Jones Act, which it is not!

The Jones Act has nothing to do with the OP's Problem..

 

We as passengers are not covered by the Jones Act unless we were Employees of the Cruise Lines.. The Jones Act was passed in 1920 to protect Injured Seamen..It often is called "The Merchant Marine Act..In Oct. 2006, Pres. Bush signed a new Jones Act Law to protect merchant seamen...

 

Sen.Wesley L. Jones has been erroneously named as the one who sponsored the "Passenger Service Act" which governs shipping by foreign lines & restricts passengers/goods from being transported from one U.S. port/city to another US. port/city..A good explanation can be found at:

http://www.shipguide.com/the-jones-act.asp

 

In the law "seamen" includes workers on Offshore Oil Rigs, Stationary Production Rigs, Tug Boats, Barges, Cruise Ships, Private Yachts, Charter Boats, Riverboat Casinos, Shrimp Boats, Fishing Boats, Trawlers, Tankers, Crew Boats, Ferries, Water Taxis, and any other vessels on waters classified as "navigable" which includes intra-coastal waterways, rivers, canals, lakes and bays. Divers and underwater personnel can also be covered by the Jones Act. According to this law an injured seaman must be compensated by his Employer for: “Transportation, Wages, Maintenance and Cure"... Anyone who works on the water & is injured most likely is covered by the Jones Act..

 

Unfortunately the wife of the Captain, even if she does a great deal of work on his boat is not covered..That's why I gave up sailing & we now stick to cruising! LOL

 

Cheers...:)Betty

 

P.S. Know they won't repeal the PVSA act as it protects U.S., shipping but it would be nice if they made an exception for some Psgrs to take a B2B, but know that's not possible even with two booking numbers....

[Boytjie]

This is a round trip cruise so it only requires a foreign port. A cruise (or multiple leg cruise) that starts in one US port and ends in another requires a "distant port".

 

Definition of Near and Distant foreign ports from the law:

 

(2) Nearby foreign port means any foreign port in North America, Central America, the Bermuda Islands, or the West Indies (including the Bahama Islands, but not including the Leeward Islands of the Netherlands Antilles, i.e., Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao). A port in the U.S. Virgin Islands shall be treated as a nearby foreign port.

(3) Distant foreign port means any foreign port that is not a nearby port.

[DutchByAssociation]

Just ran into a new twist. We want to book the Maasdam out of Ft. Lauderdale relocation cruise to Montreal. Then we want to book the Montreal to Boston cruise immediately following, effectively making this a 20 day cruise.

 

TA just sent me an email that they can't book this as a back to back because that would violate the Jones Act.

 

Has anyone ever run into this one before?

 

RSVP

 

This is because even if it were 2 separate cruises the governemnt views it as one, going from Ft. Lauderdale to Boston. You would have to touch Europe to meet the requirements and make it okay (and no, Quebec isn't actually France :)) In order to do what you would like to, you would actually have to tack on ONE MORE cruise, the Boston BACK to Montreal which adds another week if I'm not mistaken, and then you get a lot of repeat ports...

 

Ah the joys of extremely antiquated laws :(

[jtl513]

One more point that no one has mentioned yet: people have even been disallowed to change to a different ship in the Canadian port (usually Vancouver) and sail back to a different US port unless there is at least an overnight stay on land in Canada.

[sapper1]

This is because even if it were 2 separate cruises the governemnt views it as one, going from Ft. Lauderdale to Boston. You would have to touch Europe to meet the requirements and make it okay (and no, Quebec isn't actually France :)) In order to do what you would like to, you would actually have to tack on ONE MORE cruise, the Boston BACK to Montreal which adds another week if I'm not mistaken, and then you get a lot of repeat ports...

 

Ah the joys of extremely antiquated laws :(

Too bad the Maasdam doesn't make a stop in St. Pierre and Miquelon (south of Newfoundland) because that is part of France, not Canada.

 

Would that then qualify as a far distant port?

[jtl513]

Too bad the Maasdam doesn't make a stop in St. Pierre and Miquelon (south of Newfoundland) because that is part of France, not Canada.

 

Would that then qualify as a far distant port?

I don't think it would, because it's still North America. On most trans-Panama Canal cruises, the only ports that qualify as "distant" are Cartagena or the ABC islands because they are South America. The Caribbean islands that are "part of France", Martinique and St Martin, do not qualify as distant.

[sapper1]

I don't think it would, because it's still North America. On most trans-Panama Canal cruises, the only ports that qualify as "distant" are Cartagena or the ABC islands because they are South America. The Caribbean islands that are "part of France", Martinique and St Martin, do not qualify as distant.

Nothing is simple when it comes to government regs, I guess.

[Boytjie]

Would that then qualify as a far distant port?

 

From what I posted in from law:

 

(2) Nearby foreign port means any foreign port in North America...

(3) Distant foreign port means any foreign port that is not a nearby port.

[sail7seas]

I think DBA has it right...... stay aboard for another cruise to Montreal and that should work.

 

I so wish if Congress does not want to get rid of the whole Jones Act/PVSA, they would modify that part which applies to cruise ships but that is highly unlikely to happen. A cruise down (or up) the east or west coast of U.S. stopping at wonderful ports along the way would be outstanding.

[liketraveling]

I hate this law! It is outdated!

 

I did the Zaandam with the same itenary last year twice.

 

One of was round trip San Diego to San Diego stopped in Ensenada

 

The other was repositioning VanCouver to San Diego

 

There was a One Night cruise on the same ship that from Seattle to Vancouver. Adding the one night would have made us in violation of the Jones Act.

 

If you are going from one US Port round trip back to the same US Port the one foreign port suffices.

 

If you start from one US Port and end up in a different US Port you need to stop in a distant port.

 

This is how I understand it but could be wrong.

 

This law makes me dizzy!

[jtl513]

Adding the one night would have made us in violation of the Jones Act.

No it would not. As pointed out in several posts above, it would have put you in violation on the Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886. not the "Jones Act" (more properly know as the Merchant Marine Act of 1920) which applies to cabotage - the transport of goods, not passengers. :p