Mazatlan just got dumped for 2012

[Typhoon1]

And who will get hurt? It will be the good people of Mexico who count on cruise ship passengers to make a living. Drugs are bad things.

 

The drug lords will get richer, the average Mexican citizen who works in the tourist industry will get poorer.

[Ine]

And that is Per Year not since 2006

 

I would venture to say if you took a closer look those murders in Mexico since 2006 the majority DID NOT occur in Cruise Tourist Port Cities. But if you took at look at Port Cities in the US such as Miami, New York, Los Angeles, Houston, and yes even Ft Lauderdale and San Diego you would see a much higher number....just saying :rolleyes: There are risks for every type of travel as well as our normal every days lives. What about travel to Europe? Why single out just Mexico.

 

Indeed what most people donot realise that those killings are all re drugs and certainly not against tourists. This winter again thousands of canadians and americans will stay in and around P. Vallarta without any problem.

Also interesting this SF gate article:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=%2Fc%2Fa%2F2011%2F08%2F18%2FTR3O1KLPOQ.DTL#ixzz1VmED3BQL

[sassyredhat]

Lisa: I take you do do not like the "R" Class ships. I have travelled on the Zaandam and I prefer the Zaandam to the Zuiderdam. Since I rarely go to Mexico, but I have been known to do the "Sunfarer cruise", I would welcome that move. I have a definate preference for the R Class over the Vista Class.

 

 

I LOVE Zaandam, but I'm hoping to try the O and Zuidey.

We are longing to get back to HAL, but PCL has cheaper balconies.

Pat

[cruizinator]

Just got notified that Mex Riviera on Oosterdam in Feb 2012 Mazatlan stop has been replaced with an overnight in Puerto Vallarta (like 2011) - BUMMMER was hoping things had settled down..........

 

 

Here's a website I check for Mazatlan news:..mazmessenger.com. Go to home page and click on "local news"...you'll find 2 articles (if you go back to October) about cruise lines cancelling stops in Mazatlan.

[robertmnch]

I agree with you 100%

 

 

This really is all about money with the Drug thing being a convenient excuse. Certainly there are no Drug problems in any US Ports :rolleyes: One of the problems is the ship did not sell much for Shore Excursions in Mazatlan, too many great deals from private tour venders and too easy to just go to town on the plumerias. The other thing is with Mazatlan spending money on the newly improved dock their charges have gone up to the cruise lines.

 

HAL is actually paying a bit more in port charges to do an overnight in PV so having two nights there HAL is still being very fair to their passengers but the Princess thing with going to Ensenada:eek: Now that is basically Princess really being cheap and saving on fuel, the problem is they are having to give away those cabins because no one wants to only go to Ensenada so what they are gaining in fuel cost they are losing in cabin revenue. Pretty stupid move for Princess. They are trying to say safety but Disney is continuing PV and it was actually Disney that started this whole thing and the others just followed.

 

While yes there is a slight safety concern in Mexico it is definitely not any more than Jamaica, Bahamas, or even St Thomas. And let's see I do not see ships avoiding Cozumel MEXICO :rolleyes: That is still Mexico and has been and can be as dangerous as Mazatlan. If you want to think that cruise lines are doing it only for your safety, you really need to rethink what you thinking. :D

Lisa what National News do you watch on TV and what Newspapers do you read? There has been 46,000 people killed in Mexico since 2006! Just Thursday, a Politician took 4 bullets to the head and had his ear "cut off"!

Shootings have taken place in Mazatlan on the street facing the beach!

These homicides are not your usual

"garden variety", they are vicious where the Drug Cartels decapitate their victims, and cut off their victims fingers plus obvious signs of torture to their "genitals"!

I just came back from Canada and Los Angeles has become the "hub" for drugs being sent to Canada thru Montana!

All it would take is for one Cruise Passenger to be killed by a Drug Cartel Member and it would put an end to cruises to Mexico.

It is NOT a money issue, but an option to try and be safe and NOT lose a passenger!

You flamed me last year for expressing my concerns about Mexico and said there was more crime in Las Vegas than Mexico!

Get your head out of the sand and do some research on "Safety in Mexico" before booking any clients for Cruises or Land Tours to Mexico!

Please don't flame me again!:confused:

[LindaM]

And that is Per Year not since 2006

I would venture to say if you took a closer look those murders in Mexico since 2006 the majority DID NOT occur in Cruise Tourist Port Cities. But if you took at look at Port Cities in the US such as Miami, New York, Los Angeles, Houston, and yes even Ft Lauderdale and San Diego you would see a much higher number....just saying :rolleyes: There are risks for every type of travel as well as our normal every days lives. What about travel to Europe? Why single out just Mexico.

 

I am very confused about your last 2 sentences. Mexico is a 3rd world country that is very well known for violent crime. Europe is civilized. You may have your wallet lifted, but you won't lose your life.

[YOW]

There is an interesting debate/discussion to be had here.

 

Yes, the US has seen more murders since 2006 than has Mexico, let's say about 50% more in the same period of time. Of course the US has a population nearly triple that of Mexico, so Mexico's murder rate (per capita) is still higher. One can argue that murders are a more targeted event in Mexico, maybe more isolated or restricted to cartel wars and what have you.

 

Mazatlan and Acapulco, sadly, have seen violence that has spilled over onto civilians, and even tourists (not all tourists are cruise pax or even Americans/Canadians). Is this violence any worse, statistically, than what takes place in US home ports of Miami, New York, Los Angeles, etc? It's a moot point. The cruise lines, like the rest of the travel industry, have to deal with perceptions. If potential customers perceive Mazatlan or Acapulco as dangerous, there is only so much that a cruise line can or will do to change their perceptions. That's one of the driving factors in the decline of bookings of Mexican Riviera cruises.

 

Now, at the same time, if the cruise line can realise savings (not sure how much) by shortening their routes and/or running the ship at a lower speed, this will be an added incentive.

 

In the end, of course it's a decision based on money -- that's how businesses run, at least in capitalism. Yet I don't think it's as simple as saying "they're only dropping a port for reasons of safety" (i.e. higher bookings with a different itinerary, avoiding bad PR if things get worse, etc.); OR "they're only dropping the port to cut costs." More likely, it's a combination of factors... and a delicate balance. Fans of HAL, as well as CCL stockholders, should hope this is the right move.

[gentlemancruiser]

It isn't just HAL and Princess that are dumping Mexico. Cunard has also dumped Acapulco from all 2012 winter stops. They were scheduled to stop in Acapulco several times but have switched to Manzanillo. I believe that security could be a large factor in this decision.

[dockrocker]

I live here in Seattle, and like most cities we are touched by the drug cartels. Legalizing drugs would diminish the reach of the Drug Cartels, for sure. However, it would only minimally decrease, crimes such as theft, burglaries, chop shops, domestic violence, etc. That is because heroin, or other narcotics become expensive habits (as the user's tolerance grows) in which the rich can and do keep up with their demanding habits, but the rest cannot. Druggies, like alcoholics, eventually run out of money. However, druggies have a nasty tendency to become violent when they cannot get their fix or hit. Also, the drug cartels have begun peddling methamphetamine.

 

Meth Heads, Meth Mouths, and Meth Rages are not to be encouraged.

 

I will step off of my soapbox now. Mexico, like Colombia (and which was relatively successful) needs to root out their own drugs issues and corruption. As with Colombia, it does take time and unfortunately far too many innocent lives as does any "war".

 

Marijuana: while I personally do not endorse its use, perhaps could be legalized. Doing that would take a hunk out of the Cartel profits. And we have found that federally and state owned land here has been used for growing operations. With legalizing, that would be eliminated, but the other hard drugs would still be problematic.

 

You raise a good point about legalization not affecting the rate of addiction or the emotional desperation that comes with addiction. However, drugs are very expensive in large part because they are illegal; legalizing them drives down cost of production and distribution and competitive marketing takes it down even further.

 

Pot, by the way, is not the cash cow that coke and heroin are, so legalizing it while keeping harder drugs illegal goes only partway toward driving down cartel profits.

 

Violent behavior is associated with the consumption of certain drugs and not of others; we really can't make a blanket statement like "However, druggies have a nasty tendency to become violent when they cannot get their fix or hit." And most meth used in the U.S. is manufactured in the States.

 

Many argue that the money saved by ending the massively failed U.S. "war on drugs" could be better spent in education and treatment to bring down the epidemic rates of addiction in the U.S. and prevent future addicts. (That includes alcohol and cigs, BTW--the principles of addiction are exactly the same with these substances as with harder drugs, so widespread general education about addiction helps with these, too.) Although Mexico really does need to root out its corruption, it's the demand side -- U.S. consumers -- that makes that corruption possible in the first place. So any attempt to address this only from the supply side is doomed to continued failure.

[nana51]

I live about 7 miles from the Mexican border in Bonita a suburb of San Diego. EVERYONE here knows the crime rate in Mexico is way worse than it used to be. I don't know of anyone who doesn't have family that still goes down to "TJ" (Tijuana) anymore. Ask a resident of TJ and they will tell you not to come down. It is hurting their economy, but it is up to their government to do something. I don't want to risk my life in Mazatlan to help their economy.

[gentlemancruiser]

I live about 7 miles from the Mexican border in Bonita a suburb of San Diego. EVERYONE here knows the crime rate in Mexico is way worse than it used to be. I don't know of anyone who doesn't have family that still goes down to "TJ" (Tijuana) anymore. Ask a resident of TJ and they will tell you not to come down. It is hurting their economy, but it is up to their government to do something. I don't want to risk my life in Mazatlan to help their economy.

 

Well said. When Acapulco has to keep schools closed to avoid kids being placed in a violent situations there is certainly a good reason for cruise lines to avoid putting its passengers as risk.

[iceleven]

Question: When the ship overnights in PV, will they go out to sea during the evening so that the casino can open? I ask because the casino is a huge money maker and having to stay in port would cause HAL to lose money, no? Would the money saved on fuel be greater than the amount HAL can make with an open casino?

[dockrocker]

Question: When the ship overnights in PV, will they go out to sea during the evening so that the casino can open? I ask because the casino is a huge money maker and having to stay in port would cause HAL to lose money, no? Would the money saved on fuel be greater than the amount HAL can make with an open casino?

 

The point of comparison is probably not fuel costs vs. casino revenue but port fees vs. casino revenue. Docking and undocking a ship is actually a very expensive enterprise -- while ships are charged for the hours spent in port, they're also billed for the amount of labor (port authority employees, pilot boats, security, etc.) used during arrival and departure. The port authority also has to think of the increased security and safety risks from an extra berthing.

 

So -- no idea how those costs compare dollar for dollar, but I've never heard of a ship leaving a port overnight only to come back in the morning, so I'm guessing they don't like to do it.

[califgary]

Question: When the ship overnights in PV, will they go out to sea during the evening so that the casino can open? I ask because the casino is a huge money maker and having to stay in port would cause HAL to lose money, no? Would the money saved on fuel be greater than the amount HAL can make with an open casino?

 

I noticed a nite tour now in PV which doesnt leave the ship until 6:45 and returns at approximately midnight - I would say the ship will pretty much stay put at the pier overnight.

[mgm61]

So they've decided to try and slide all these adjustments in under the radar and just hope we won't notice. We'll continue to pay the same fares for something less tahn we used to have and put up with it....and most of us I guess probably will!

__________________

Chris & Paula

 

 

wow this sounds like what our government is doing to us, and we can't do a darn thing about it.

[Blizzard54]

The point of comparison is probably not fuel costs vs. casino revenue but port fees vs. casino revenue. Docking and undocking a ship is actually a very expensive enterprise -- while ships are charged for the hours spent in port, they're also billed for the amount of labor (port authority employees, pilot boats, security, etc.) used during arrival and departure. The port authority also has to think of the increased security and safety risks from an extra berthing.

 

So -- no idea how those costs compare dollar for dollar, but I've never heard of a ship leaving a port overnight only to come back in the morning, so I'm guessing they don't like to do it.

 

You are correct about the cost of docking and un-docking a ship. It is rather expensive. I have heard that in Cabo, where they anchor, ships have left for the night and returned.

[mgm61]

You are correct about the cost of docking and un-docking a ship. It is rather expensive. I have heard that in Cabo, where they anchor, ships have left for the night and returned.

 

 

yep we were on that one, Carnival did that. There were 40-50 or more that stayed in Cabo, to get the nightlife that it is famous for. No bad weather so no reason to not port the next day.;)

[Cruise4K]

I just got off the ship on 12/10 and we stayed over night at the pier in PV.

I knew before that we were not going to MAZ - we had a credit of $11 + per person from the port charges as a credit with a notice left outside the door when we boarded.

 

I didn't notice any new excursions that didn't exist in the past but highly recommend Rhythms of the Night.

[iceleven]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, now I can better understand the differences between the Carnival ship that tenders in Cabo and HAL's ship which actually docks at the port.

 

PV is a beautiful port and I would have no problem with spending two days and an overnight there. I also can understand the frustration of losing a port.

[localady]

John I think this will prove to be a big mistake on HAL's part for fall 2012/winter 2013 by not having at least a Vista Class on the West Coast. I know personally I have sailed on the Zaandam and would probably choose Princess or the Splendor before I chose the Zaandam. That is really the ship they should have sent has the 2nd ship Down Under. I want a balcony cabin to Mexico and will not pay the prices they want for the Verandah Suite and if I do I prefer to book a Superior Verandah Suite on a Vista Class that gets me far more room. HAL has been so successful with Hawaii this year because of placing the Oosterdam doing this itinerary. Even if they kept the Oosterdam going to Australia they should swap out the Zaandam with another Vista possibly the Zuiderdam. Those 10 and 11 day Panama runs have been a tough sell for HAL with filling the Zuiderdam they started to practically give them away. HAL could easily repostion the Zuiderdam here after Alaska then take the Zaandam to the Caribbean. It would definitely make more sense.

 

Totally agree with you, leave a Vista ship here on the West Coast!!

 

I am pretty happy about the 2 days in PV myself, but I do think it's a shame for Mazatlan's economy.