Costa Concordia SINKING

[cdamion]

Absolutely! But, I think the (no pun intended) chilling things for me are (1) the scale of chaos that can result from a disaster involving over 4000 people and (2) the thoughts of an emergency of this magnitude taking place much further out to sea.

 

I think water temperature would play a huge role. If it is cold water, hypothermia would set it quick and decision making would be hampered. In warm Caribbean water, people would have a better chance of keeping their wits about them to get to all of the inflatables that would automatically deploy.

[peterhof]

Just thinking out loud here, but how feasible would it be to have a card reader on the life boats that would read and register a manifest?

 

It would need to communicate with a central system, and obviously there'd always be people who wouldn't have their cards to hand, but the bulk of passengers and crew would have their passes with them.

 

Once the lifeboats had left the ship, people could start swiping their cards, so that by the time they reach land they'd be accounted for.

 

Problems I can see with the idea:

 

• The card readers would need to be battery operated (need to top up charges)
  
• They'd need a "SIM" card for mobile network communications - might be out of coverage.
  
• Where would the central list be collated during an emergency?
  
• Some people, as mentioned, wouldn't have their cards (lost, forgotten)
  

Benefits:

 

• Faster verification of who's accounted for
  
• Help to reunite families
  
• Easier than a roll call for 4,000 people - only need to roll call people without cards
  

 

Good basic idea, however.....

 

 

• It has been reported that all power was lost from the ship for a short while. This would have caused the customer relations computers to reboot
  
• Costa openly report that the manifest was possible not up to date!
  
• Lifeboats are mothballed generally and only a few are regularly used for tender duty - therefore, even if the batteries were lithium, they would need recharging every month or so.
  
• This system already exists whenever passengers and crew leave and reboard the ship - even now it is often prone to errors.
  
• In panic situations such as this, scanning a card on entry to a lifeboat complicates and delays the evacuation process
  

The most important factor is to evacuate everbody as soon as possible - even if they are stowaways!!! Sorting out who they are is not a prime factor or where they live and who their relatives are! Can you imagine what would happen if someones card failed to register!

[Loonbeam]

You don't. And the reason is the Commander himself doesn't know. The fact of the matter is no one knows how they will react in a true emergency until the emergency happens. Training, experience and drills help, but you will never know. This holds true for everyone from the Captain, to the staff, to the passengers (I saw the one FB post from a crew member on her way home and I have zero trouble believing any of the passenger anecdotes she gave).

 

One thing to remember is that there is a difference between incident and disaster. Muster drills, etc are primarily designed to deal with an 'incident' under which category most cruise ship problems fall. This was a disaster level situation, and there is no drill or training that will provide everything needed for something like this, about as close to a worst case scenario you could get in terms of needing to evacuate.

 

When all is said and done, if you were able to do a survey, out of 1000 crew you will probably find 200 who went above and beyond in the rescue, 600 who did what needed to be done and 200 who...didn't.

 

The one crew member quoted earlier put it best. The crew got 4000 or so passengers off the ship, the vast majority of them safely. That's an amazing feat in that situation. Was it perfect? No. But anyone who expected perfect, with nice orderly lines, had unreasonable expectations.

 

Sorry, got off my response to the OP there a bit.

 

 

But, here's where I'm a bit shaken: How can I, as a passenger, tell the difference between a Commander who is an incredible organizational leader and one that is a really handsome handshaker?

[rnvattes]

If the Captain was going off course to wave to his friends on the island, where were the other officers on the bridge? Surely, someone must have identified the risk and had objection! On a naval ship there is a chain of command, don't civilian ships have a similar structure? If a captain is putting the ship and it's occupants in danger, they can disobey the order. Yes, they may have to face the consequences later, but alert personnel on the bridge should have taken over command.

 

This - the reluctance to question those in command - is very common across many industries. The airline industry was first to try to flatten the hierarchical thinking that impedes those "below" from questioning those "above". The healthcare industry has taken their lead, both in effort to allay tragic error leading to loss of life. Perhaps maritime industries - including but not limited to the cruise industry - need to follow suit.

[scottcruises]

Russian TV footage (Novosti, Channel 1) today taken by some of the 100 Russian passengers of yellow lifejacketed crew members, Filipinos, pushing passengers out of the way and swarming the life boats.

 

Looks like a total breakdown of command from top to bottom.

 

The most damaging aspect to the industry will occur if one of the news agency sites digs into the industry. Most of the crew are horribly paid and worked long hours. I would never expect to see anything but an "everyone for themselves" evacuation because you are dealing with people who make so little money....they're going to take care of themselves in many cases and I cannot blame them.

 

Think about it. It costs less to take a cruise for 5 or 6 days with all your food included than it does to fly from NYC to LAX right now. One of the areas they make the cuts to get that done is in the service professionals. US airlines pay for professional staff that are trained all the time and that make decent money. Most cruise ship employees - well they make peanuts and aren't regulated by the US government for a reason.

[Loonbeam]

There is a difference between monitoring and reviewing. Costa is getting real time data (or slight delay data) from its ships 24/7. I sincerely doubt anyone reviews all that data on a regular basis. In addition, to spot a problem, someone would have to know those specific waters.

 

Given that this was something that was apparently done many times prior without incident, there would be no reason for a data point aberration to show unless someone who knew those specific waters happened to look at the data and noticed the shortened margin for error.

 

At a press confernce today the company alleges that the sail-past route deviation was 'unauthorised and unknown' to them and they point the finger at the captain. Were all previous sail-pasts 'unknown' to the company? Did they never look at the navigational trace of previous sail pasts? Did no one on the island ever point out (perhaps even complain) that a huge cruise ship sailing past, at speed, & blowing its klaxon, so close to the rocky shoreline, might be rather dangerous...not even the harbourmaster, pilots or other experienced mariners who live on that island?

 

As other posters have pointed out,a great deal of evidence could be aviable to Cruise Critic forum members who should send it to the relevant authorities. In pointing the blame towards the captain the cruise company may be hoping to avoid charges of corporate mansalughter if they knew of previous unsafe manouvres, took no action andd thereby condoned them?

 

As for the future, captains must always have the option of deviating from a pre-planned route for many kinds of reasons...... but it ought to be the simplest thing in the world for the cruise companies to monitor their ships routes in real time and to interrogate the ship's captain or navigator immediately if a significant and unreported route deviation from that planned and authorised occurs.

[resistk]

The most damaging aspect to the industry will occur if one of the news agency sites digs into the industry. Most of the crew are horribly paid and worked long hours. I would never expect to see anything but an "everyone for themselves" evacuation because you are dealing with people who make so little money....they're going to take care of themselves in many cases and I cannot blame them.

 

Think about it. It costs less to take a cruise for 5 or 6 days with all your food included than it does to fly from NYC to LAX right now. One of the areas they make the cuts to get that done is in the service professionals. US airlines pay for professional staff that are trained all the time and that make decent money. Most cruise ship employees - well they make peanuts and aren't regulated by the US government for a reason.

 

Agreed but who wants to be a passenger on a line who puts shareholder profits above passenger safety? The flag of convenience cruise industry needs to be slapped down fast, the mega ships present a probelm no one could have anticipated. This might just as well have been Oasis of the Seas - do we really know what might happen if a catastrophe occured on such a big ship?

[peterv]

I saw the pictures from the starboard side that showed all lifeboats on that side had deployed. Also, I read one account somewhere that a woman was on the last lifeboat that left that side and people were left behind.

 

More alarming to me are the reports that many of the boats were almost empty.

 

Well, since over 4000 people left the ship via lifeboats, we can assume that there was sufficient capacity and they left with enough people on them. Now the ones that were stranded on the port side was a different story, as I believe there were 50 people there that needed to be rescued after the ship listed too far.

 

But considering the amount of panic, people probably crowded around the Promenade deck and just kept jumping into the nearest boat overloading some, and leaving others less full.

 

The biggest concern is the timing as to when the boats started being launched and if that delay caused the panic. I believe I read somewhere that the ship could be evacuated in 1/2 an hour. But if communications broke down and no one was in the right places to get it done efficiently then nothing could really prevent that taking much longer. Passengers are supposed to wait in the muster stations and be called to the boats in groups. I don't think that was the case and everyone swarmed the Promenade deck.

[peterhof]

If the Captain was going off course to wave to his friends on the island, where were the other officers on the bridge? Surely, someone must have identified the risk and had objection! On a naval ship there is a chain of command, don't civilian ships have a similar structure? If a captain is putting the ship and it's occupants in danger, they can disobey the order. Yes, they may have to face the consequences later, but alert personnel on the bridge should have taken over command.

 

On any merchant ship - and a cruise ship is one also - the master is god and considered el supremo - he/she who must always be obeyed.

 

Unlike naval officers, the route to success is to ALWAYS obey his judgement and never question it. Chain of command exists, that is why the first officer was also arrested. I suspect he has been released following a statement that the captain was to blame. He would also be in contact with the CEO of Costa. Standing orders from cruise lines is that the captain is at all times in control and must not deviate without permission from the route approved by the HQ in Miami. It seems he had decided to ignore that on this occassion.

[TheBestIsYetToCome]

The one crew member quoted earlier put it best. The crew got 4000 or so passengers off the ship, the vast majority of them safely. That's an amazing feat in that situation. Was it perfect? No. But anyone who expected perfect, with nice orderly lines, had unreasonable expectations.

 

Snipped a bit, but I wanted to respond to this. It was amazing, and I totally respect what they managed to do. I guess I am just wondering if they managed to do what they did in spite of a Commander's lack of leadership...and what the implications of that question and its answer will be.

[Aplmac]

Here is the news report where I learned of the FB status of the Maitr'd sister:

 

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16149739

Very interesting link, many thanks! Several interesting clips to be viewed!

 

Pay attention to what's being said

about the whole antiquated concept of lowering lifeboats being 100 yrs. old/out-of-date?!

Works well as long as the ship remains conveniently upright to within 10 degrees or so

(even if he says 20....lol to THAT!)

 

 

One thing's for sure: I'm not booking any cruises in the near future

and it sure as he11 won't be on a cruise line where my language (English as it happens)

isn't the common language of both crew and the majority of passengers!!

 

_____________________________

 

Here's something else that might be coming our way, shortly:

NO alcohol and DOD's to be served on board immediately after embarkation --not until after Muster Drill. :)

 

Why?? Far too many 'tipsy' people at Muster Drill, laughing and not paying attention.

Previously it's been a big laugh, huh? Not any more! ;)

.

[scottcruises]

Agreed but who wants to be a passenger on a line who puts shareholder profits above passenger safety? The flag of convenience cruise industry needs to be slapped down fast, the mega ships present a probelm no one could have anticipated. This might just as well have been Oasis of the Seas - do we really know what might happen if a catastrophe occured on such a big ship?

 

More like flag of higher profit, which is what it really is. Far as I know they all pretty much do it too.

 

When have you ever heard of an american or british (or any really) plane crash where evacuations saved lives where the crew left first? Never. Yet it seems to happen a lot with these types of things on ships again because IMO the crew is paid like trash and they aren't going to trade their lives for the minimal pay they get.

[Aplmac]

The industry already addressed this by moving the location of the lifeboats from the topmost deck to the middle.

Judging by the pictures I have seen, all starboard lifeboats were launched and all but 3 of the port lifeboats.

Of the 3 that remain, it appears they were deployed as the davits are extended.

They seem to have not been able to be launched as they settled back into the side of the ship

-possibly after the list got too severe.

 

The ship does not need all the lifeboats as they have the inflatable rafts as well

with all of them able to hold double the amount of souls on board.

Moral of the story...Launch lifeboats earlier rather than later.

.

[5326jan]

On any merchant ship - and a cruise ship is one also - the master is god and considered el supremo - he/she who must always be obeyed.

 

Unlike naval officers, the route to success is to ALWAYS obey his judgement and never question it. Chain of command exists, that is why the first officer was also arrested. I suspect he has been released following a statement that the captain was to blame. He would also be in contact with the CEO of Costa. Standing orders from cruise lines is that the captain is at all times in control and must not deviate without permission from the route approved by the HQ in Miami. It seems he had decided to ignore that on this occassion.

 

Yes, understood that it may be different with "merchant ships", but the reporting has been that the captain was not on the bridge at the time of the accident. Only time will tell what the reality was on the bridge that night. If the Captain set the course, then left it to another to follow... or worse yet, programmed it into the auto pilot.... someone had to be at the helm to keep visual watch. My question is this: Why didn't that person either change course or alert someone who could? Someone, besides and/or in addition to the Captain, had physical control of the ship.

[H82seaUgo]

Also some reports that he was in one of the bars with a female companion and not on the bridge but I havent seen these repeated in any credible media format

 

that in itself is no crime.

[sidari]

One thing that has been mentioned on UK news is that had the Captain ordered people to attend Muster stations right after they knew they were holed/Collision then almost if not All lifeboats would have been used and it would not have taken so long to get people off! sounds about right when you consider how long it takes sometimes before people turn up at their Muster stations!!

 

Had all passengers been alerted right away then they would have been ready and waiting at Muster stations and ready to leave as soon as the ship stopped!

 

Why do people assume that the Captain is always on the Bridge ? after all thats why he has a Staff Captain and various numbers of ranked officers including more than One navigator and Lookouts!

We were lucky enough to visit the Bridge on the Ruby Princess on 2 occasions and each time there was a Navigator and a 1st officer (one of whom was a woman) plus 2 lookouts with Binoculars, although the Captain was there he was not steering the ship!

[JJSMaine]

Why did the passengers here lies form the Bridge?

 

Did not the misinformation potential cause as much panic and confusion as the truth would have? We have heard this from many of the 1st person accounts.... that announcements were made that turned out to be misleading.

 

Why not just say... folks.. "we struck and obstacle and are evaluating the situation."? Was the misleading information to keep passengers and crew calm or was it a move to CYA?

 

As a previous poster said.. How do I know if my captain is to just a pretty face?

 

These are legitimate concerns I have as a future cruise customer... I am not just trying to ship up a frenzy of hatred.... I just expect more from people in such professional positions and when I do not get it, it makes me doubt the entire system.

 

Is this a cultural issue within Costa? Is this a Top-Down issue or is it an isolated display of incompetence by someone that sneaked through to a position they should not have had?

 

 

Eventually we will get some of the truth. We won't get all of it... people will lie and lawyers will fight. information will be suppressed.. reputations and profits will be protected, or thrown under the bus...

 

yet the reality of the nightmare will continue on for the families that have lost more than the ship is ever worth.... and yes, all for Bravado.

[Hebersgyll]

roughly today at a news conference at 11:30 the Costa Crociere S.p.A. President and CEO of the company, Pierluigi Foschi, stated:

 

To the best of Costa Cruises knowledge, Costa had passed a ship inshore opposite the island of Giglio only once before, on August 9, 2011, for the festival of San Lorenzo. On that occasion both the company and the Coast Guard had approved the route.

 

link

 

That's what he said. Time will tell whether his statement is true and can be verified or whether there have been many previous close sail bys and whether the company ought to have known/did know about this practice. Also, the speed of his sail by may be significant...... a ship travels significant distances in shallow, rocky waters at 14/15 knots.

[guernseyguy]

I'm not booking any cruises in the near future

and it sure as he11 won't be on a cruise line where my language (English as it happens) isn't the common language of both crew and the majority of passengers!!

Well that rules out ALL the major cruise lines who hire their staff from Philippines/Indonesia/Eastern Europe.....

 

So who are you planning on cruising with?

[peterhof]

 

Passengers are supposed to wait in the muster stations and be called to the boats in groups. I don't think that was the case and everyone swarmed the Promenade deck.

 

My wife and I well remember the days when "Lifeboat Drill", now called Muster Drill, was always considered a serious matter by both passengers and crew.

 

We were mustered under our appropriate life boat and our names called and ticked off on the roll call. Anybody missing was noted and later contacted to find out the reason they were not where they should be.

 

Life jackets were on the bed when you first entered your cabin on day 1 and when the muster drill was called you had to put it on and go to your muster station (under the life boat). It should be said that in those days (up to perhaps 10 years ago) cruise ships were not the size that they are today.

 

Apart from one exception (Marco Polo) we have found that the following prevails, which in my opinion contravenes the SOLAS (Safety of Lives at Sea) regulations.........

 

 

• Life jackets are not on the bed when you arrive - you have to search to see if in fact a) there are enough life jackets in the cabin and b) if they fit and the whistle and torch are intact.
  
• Passengers are told NOT to take there life jacket to the Muster Drill
  
• The muster station is in a lounge and far away from where your lifeboat is
  
• The muster drill is considered a fun part of the cruise and staff may not be fully trained in what to do
  
• The excersize is merely a photo call for the ships photographer/videographer!
  

 

Quite frankly, as we now tend to have a midships balcony cabin on deck 7 (Royal Caribbean Lines ships) it would be quicker for us to climb down outside our balcony to the lifeboat hanging below us. I for one, knowing that muster drill controllers would panic just as must as the passengers, would in a situation like this go straight to the promenade deck and wait under a lifeboat - any lifeboat!! Thats why muster drill is a farce and only done to comply with SOLAS regs. It has been reported that the last Muster drill on the Concordia was on the 8th of January !"!! How bad is that??? Criminal in itself!

[H82seaUgo]

Last night I made an animated video about what seems to have happened, based on all the evidence I've read on this thread. See if it makes sense to you:

 

 

There's always a point with modern engineering that we realise it's sinkable after all. This is the first mega ship to sink. Just like when the first Concorde crashed, the first Boeing 777, that Airbus A380 that's practically written off. Modern engineering is the safest it's ever been, but it's still mortal, like Titanic or SS Normandie. Modern cruise ships were quietly assumed "unsinkable" all that changed are that the chances are way lower.

 

 

i thought the gps showed the ship going between the two rocks?

[guernseyguy]

More like flag of higher profit, which is what it really is. Far as I know they all pretty much do it too.

 

Not true in this case - Costa is Italian flagged.

[Loonbeam]

One very important thing about disaster response (again, different than incident response).

 

When the captain or other responsible officer issues the disaster declaration (on a cruise ship that would be 'Abandon Ship' pretty much), that particular officer has very little direct responsibility in terms of the actual evacuation. Things like lines at the lifeboats are not really in his purview. His role is to secure the ship as best as possible and ensure everyone is off.

 

The lower ranked senior officers that don't have engineering duties (based on my knowledge) each are assigned an evacuation area and they are the ones who should have been assisting crew (assuming they could get there)

 

Again, not defending the captain at all, but making sure people have reasonable expectations of who should have been where doing what.

 

Snipped a bit, but I wanted to respond to this. It was amazing, and I totally respect what they managed to do. I guess I am just wondering if they managed to do what they did in spite of a Commander's lack of leadership...and what the implications of that question and its answer will be.

[shipfriend_max]

The more she slips down lower the more damage, she could be recovered but will she stay?

 

But if there would be a chance of slipping off, it would already have happened - I know about the danger of slipping off, but the ship is still at the same location - so there's a chance that it could be salvaged - the diving controls are stopped now.

[peterhof]

Well that rules out ALL the major cruise lines who hire their staff from Philippines/Indonesia/Eastern Europe.....

 

So who are you planning on cruising with?

 

I suggest they learn Russian and sail on a Russian ship!!!!