Costa Concordia SINKING

[SomeBeach]

Yes a cruise ship sank off Antarctica a few years ago. Of course the evac was organized, then they sat for a while before other ships came over and picked them all up. If I recall correctly everyone made it off ok.

 

Dave, the ship that ran aground and started sinking, off the Greek Islands I think, didn't they deploy some lifeboats? That was the one where the Cruise Director and the rest of the crew took over because the Officers hightailed it off the ship... to arrange rescue from shore. That was another huge mess.

The Star Princess fire, I believe a distress called was sent tho no lifeboats were deployed.

[Rancher Dave]

Dave, the ship that ran aground and started sinking, off the Greek Islands I think, didn't they deploy some lifeboats? That was the one where the Cruise Director and the rest of the crew took over because the Officers hightailed it off the ship... to arrange rescue from shore. That was another huge mess.

 

The Star Princess fire, I believe a distress called was sent tho no lifeboats were deployed.

 

 

I don't recall how they evac'd that ship....may have been by lifeboat or by tender. That was pretty soon after the sinking off the ice shelf. I recall the sinking well since a few days later we cruised on Majesty of the Seas and one lady near us was complaining about muster....so I just said sure bet those pax were so glad they knew where to go and what to do. She was silent after that.

[daveandrebecca]

Has anyone mentioned if the watertight doors and bulkheads below the water line were secured after the crash? Or was there simply too much damage?

 

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

[wilsonqbc]

You are kidding right? Not a issue for USA congress at all, its IMO regulations which are international, USA flagged Your cruise will cost you at least 10 x more, You need US crew, if USA flagged they would have to pay a lot of Tax on any profits too, Ok accidents happen now and then, same as Pilot error on how many plane crashes, Spirit of America I think has usa flag and crew how they manage it I dont know.

 

Ok Wilson, help me out here. I hate to mention this because I never correct/question posts because I can usually figure them out. Unfortunately I don't know where you are ending sentences so you have me very confused. You question my post by asking if "I'm kidding." Then you seem to go on to anything USA involved will cost a fortune, which again leads me to believe you don't want the USA involved. I am saying I don't believe Congress needs to get involved in this right now. You, in the area I've highlighted in red, are saying the same, if I have followed you correctly.

 

I then go on to say that I believe some people may have requested Congress to look into this. Not me, but possibly someone. Or Congress may have just decided to do so on their own as we have 2 missing Americans on this ship. They want answers, as I'm sure the family of the missing couple does.

 

All I did in my original post was mention that Congress wants hearings on this. Another poster from Ireland responded that they didn't like that idea. My response, I clarified above. There are not enough facts out as yet but I'm pretty sure that all cruise lines are looking at what has happened here and how they can make sure it doesn't happen again. [/quote

 

I think all I was trying to say is this happened in Italy, on a foreign flagged vessel. So ok congress looks into it, and can recommend whatever they decide with their field of experts/debates and decisions, We already have the Interntional Maritime Organization and SOLAS safety of lives at sea, these are international organizations who make up Maritime laws.

Why congress would make new rules for everyone in the world, just really confuses me, The US Coast Guard does routine inspections on all ships as does the USPH. Congress is just full of loopy headed people in my books. thats about all I was trying to say. (look at how they want to start regulating the free internet, I dont like that)

If the ship had a US flag with US crew then it could be a issue for congress maybe? Was just saying with a US flag and crew and all the fees attached, No company run that way could offer a competitive price compared to a foreign flagged vessel.

[Cuizer2]

Still not convinced. Your original post noted you worked with Hertz. You cited examples that are very limited for your "vast" knowledge.

 

I guess it's one of those "believe it when I see it" issues.

 

A company is run by (generally) it's stockholders that do have a say in what is happening and who is insuring. They have a vested interest in same.

 

Please bear in mind that this is a forum about a Cruise Ship that is facing a large loss. I suggest we stick to the issue at hand and not get involved with people's auto or home insurance or digressing off the issue at hand.

 

If you don't understand Marine Insurance, please move onto another post and discuss what you do know. Or perhaps an insurance based message board?

 

In the last ten years I have watched as several insurers have been seized by the state department of insurance because the carrier no longer had enough assets to pay its claims. Though I do not currently work for Hertz, I note that it is still in business.

 

Again, this is not proven until I see more information.

Are you insinuating that Costa's insurers don't have enough money to pay for it's loss? Tread lightly here.

 

PS: I don't need to cite my experience or my degree, it's not necessary as my information proves my knowledge. Too bad you worked soley in claims, and didn't actually sell the product, your knowledge may have been expanded.

 

1) I was answering a general information question on this thread.

 

2) I have not made any statements about the ability of Carnival's (not Costa - you clearly don't understand the ownership in this case) insurers.

 

3) The reason you don't want to cite your experience is that it is unimpressive.

 

4) I have handled coverage issues which requires the complete understanding of the policy. It is amazing to me how many people sell insurance without knowing what it is they are selling - such as:

 

A CGL policy to someone who installs underground pipes with an exclusion for settlement of the ground.

 

A HO policy that limits business equipment to $250 for someone who works out of their home.

[Cuizer2]

So were you with Hertz or adjusting claims for an insurance company?

 

So confused.:confused::confused::confused:

 

Hertz is self insured. I handled claims involving cars that were owned by Hertz and involved in an accident. There was no insurance involved unless the renter purchased the optional excess liability insurance. I have also handled claims for Certain Underwriters at Lloyds. That you are confused and is obvious.

[Cuizer2]

Just trolling here, and have to agree with Canadain KearBear. It doesn't make any sense if it's not marine related?

Do the insurance companys not have money? is that what im reading?

 

Can we keep this on topic please?

 

I was answering a general question on insurance that was posted on this thread.

[Cuizer2]

But if this ship had Azipods, it wouldn't have a drive shaft.

 

The Costa Concordia does have Azipods.

[Loonbeam]

The cruise contract covers a lot of venue, but the first court of record would be where the ship is registered and departed from...

 

Here's some relevant passages from the US Costa cruise contract but its going to be a whole lot more complicated in this case since there is obviously some level of negligence which may void some limitations, and other countries may have different contract terms:

 

Bold is my emphasis, interestingly based on the last point, US citizens may need italian lawyers....

 

 

"Notwithstanding any provision of this Contract or law to the contrary, as to any voyage occurring wholly outside the United States, the Carrier claims the benefit of all restrictions, exemptions and limitations of liability set forth in the “Convention Relating to the Carriage of Passengers and Their Luggage by Sea of 1974” as well as the “Protocol to the Convention Relating to the Carriage of Passengers and Their Luggage by Sea of 1976” (“Athens Convention”), and the “Convention on Limitation of Liability for Maritime Claims” of 1976 (“LLMC Convention”) which limit the liability of the Carrier for death of or personal injury to the Passenger to no more than 46,666 Special Drawing Rights (“SDRs”) as defined therein, and all other limits for damage or loss to personal property. The value of 46,666 SDRs is equal to approximately U.S. $70,900 at the time of printing of this Contract and the current value is publicly available and published in the Wall Street Journal and on the Internet at http://www.imf.org/external/np/fin/data/rms_sdrv.aspx"

 

"The responsibility of the Carrier for damages to or losses of the Passenger’s baggage, belongings or property, including without limitation clothing worn by the Passenger, even if temporarily in the custody of the Carrier, is limited to the maximum sum of the lower of five hundred U.S. dollars (US$500) per Passenger or one hundred fifty U.S. dollars (US$150) per piece, unless prior to the beginning of the voyage the Passenger declares a higher value in writing and pays a higher tariff equal to five percent (5%) of the declared value; provided, however, that under no circumstance shall the Carrier be liable for an amount greater than five thousand U.S. dollars (US$5,000), "

 

"The Carrier shall not under any circumstances be liable to the Passenger for damages for emotional distress, mental anguish or psychological injury of any kind, when such damages were neither the result of a physical injury to the Passenger, the result of the Passenger having been at actual risk of a physical injury, nor intentionally inflicted by the Carrier."

 

"EVEN IF THE APPLICABLE LAW PROVIDES OTHERWISE, PASSENGER AGREES THAT ANY ARBITRATION OR LAWSUIT AGAINST CARRIER WHATSOEVER SHALL BE LITIGATED BY THE PASSENGER INDIVIDUALLY AND NOT AS A MEMBER OF ANY CLASS OR REPRESENTATIVE ACTION, AND THE PASSENGER EXPRESSLY AGREES TO WAIVE ANY LAW ENTITLING HIM/HER TO PARTICIPATE IN A CLASS OR REPRESENTATIVE ACTION"

 

"All claims, controversies, disputes, suits and matters of any kind whatsoever arising out of, concerned with or incident to any voyage that does not depart from, return to, or visit a U.S. port, or to this Contract if issued in connection with such a voyage, shall be instituted only in the courts of Genoa, Italy, to the exclusion of the courts of any other county, state or nation. Italian law shall apply to any such proceedings.

 

"

 

 

 

 

That's a godo question. I wonder if it is the law where the people are from? or where the ship is registerd?

[TheBestIsYetToCome]

The Costa Concordia does have Azipods.

 

Not certain one way or the other, but this suggests not....

 

http://gcaptain.com/loss-electrical-power-costa-concordia/?37470

 

"The Costa Concordia does not have azimuthing

[SomeBeach]

Ok Wilson. I think we're pretty much on the same page. Your "You're Kidding" really meant "You're kidding!!" As in, please say it ain't so. ;)

daveandrebecca, I don't recall hearing or reading anything definitive about the doors/bulkheads.

[IRL_Joanie]

Costa Serena Sightseeing or Optical Illusion??

 

I hope this is an Optical Illusion and that the Costa Serena, sister ship to Costa Concordia was actually on course at least 4 miles from the scene of Concordia's disaster site off Giglio, Tuscany.

 

I've been trying to locate the video of it that was shown on CNN tonight, with no luck. All I could find was this photo on Yahoo News.

 

 

Joanie

[Cuizer2]

I guess I have to chime in, being in the insurance industry for 25 years.

The insurance company would be hard pressed NOT to honor a personal injury claim. The parties involved that were victims of this loss are not to blame for the captains error. The last thing the insurance company (and subsequent re-insurers) want is bad press because of that.

The people that are innocent will be paid. Either by the company (in the form of a free cruise or compensation, or both). The loss of life will have to be adjusted separately based on the income level among other factors.

The property damage may be in question by the exclusion you speak of. I have noted this in previous posts.

If there was criminal intent, then the insurer has every right to deny a claim. Upon further thought on this however, the captain's charges were not directly related to a criminal effect on the ship itself, but rather a poor judgement call for sailing too close to an island, and leaving the ship when he was supposed to stay. The insurer (and re-insurers) would also be hard pressed to deny a claim on this basis as Insurance companies do insure stupidity. (I have lots of claims examples on this if you want).

If the Insurance company did not insure for "accidents" then the guy that left his spring tires on this morning in the -29c cold and blowing snow weather that hit the other guy would be at a loss for a claim. We insure him too for whatever coverage he holds.

This wasn't really an "accident" but can be spun that way as the captain did not turn the ship to intentionally hit a rock. He was merely exercising bad judgement.

 

Sorry to get so wordy, but had to chime in my two cents.

 

Remember these ships are insured with at least 4-5 insurance companies (re-insurers) and given the loss ratio of cruise ships is very low, there may be a substantial payout in the end by the insurer's either way you slice it.

 

Insurance companies also don't get involved in civil suits, which I suspect there will be a few of (especially the loss of life involved).

 

this was a sad day all around for everyone involved.

 

You are all over the place with this post. First of all, you have no idea what the policies say, so you don't know what is and is not covered. Second, Carnival is self insured for the first $10 million.

 

Third, you claim that, "The insurance company would be hard pressed NOT to honor a personal injury claim. " Then you claim that, "If there was criminal intent, then the insurer has every right to deny a claim." So which is it? By the way, you seem to have forgotten the exclusion for intentional conduct.

[reallyitsmema]

Not certain one way or the other, but this suggests not....

 

http://gcaptain.com/loss-electrical-power-costa-concordia/?37470

 

"The Costa Concordia does not have azimuthing

You are correct, Concordia does not have azipods.

[Cuizer2]

Being in the insurance industry (I am an underwriter for a large company) we deal with Lloyds all the time. The wordings are called Manuscript wordings, but basically they are all the same. If there is criminal intent or activity involved, the insurance company walks away without paying a penny.

This is standard in all insurance policies to avoid pay outs for criminal activity.

 

Apparently you are unfamiliar with fidelity bonds that protect the employer from criminal acts of the employee. These policies do in fact payout for criminal activity.

[SomeBeach]

Just listened to an explanation of "intentional conduct" and how it could apply to this case.

You have what is known as the Athens Convention.

If a ship does not touch a US port there are limitations in a lawsuit.

If the ship does touch a US port there are no limitations.

From what we currently know, the lawyer explaining this believes the intentional conduct rule will apply because of the Captain's actions. This would allow for larger awards.

The case would still have to be tried in Genoa.

[LovingCrusing]

I don't recall how they evac'd that ship....may have been by lifeboat or by tender. That was pretty soon after the sinking off the ice shelf. I recall the sinking well since a few days later we cruised on Majesty of the Seas and one lady near us was complaining about muster....so I just said sure bet those pax were so glad they knew where to go and what to do. She was silent after that.

 

Does anyone have a link on this one? i would be interested to see it.

 

thank you :)

[JJSMaine]

Not certain one way or the other, but this suggests not....

 

http://gcaptain.com/loss-electrical-power-costa-concordia/?37470

 

"The Costa Concordia does not have azimuthing

 

 

This was an early story that has been discredited by the testimony of the passengers. Everyone says the crash happened first, then the power went out, not the other way around.

[IRL_Joanie]

I am responding to a poster who is attacking me.

 

Please, I think we are all tired of this Insurance Bantering/Badgering, whatever you wish to call it. PLEASE take it elsewhere. Start a new thread or whatever but TAKE IT OFF this thread PLEASE???

 

Joanie

[tntornadox]

Costa Serena Sightseeing or Optical Illusion??

 

I hope this is an Optical Illusion and that the Costa Serena, sister ship to Costa Concordia was actually on course at least 4 miles from the scene of Concordia's disaster site off Giglio, Tuscany.

 

I've been trying to locate the video of it that was shown on CNN tonight, with no luck. All I could find was this photo on Yahoo News.

 

[ATTACH]218711[/ATTACH]

 

Joanie

 

Bumped this from earlier since it seemed to have gotten lost.

 

Is Costa still sailing its ships off the shipping lane?

[SomeBeach]

Does anyone have a link on this one? i would be interested to see it.

 

thank you :)

 

I tried to link but when I preview tested it didn't work.

Google Sea Diamond, Santorini, Greece. It was in April, 2007.

In scanning it, doesn't look like they got all the boats off.

[tntornadox]

That image of Costa Serena sailing past is authentic, she sailed from Civitavecchia tonight and it's reported she would sail near the wreck of the Concordia.

 

Link: http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/World/Story/STIStory_757403.html

 

Better pic:

From: http://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Tales-emerge-of-missing-and-dead-in-ship-disaster-2608550.php

[LovingCrusing]

I tried to link but when I preview tested it didn't work.

 

Google Sea Diamond, Santorini, Greece. It was in April, 2007.

In scanning it, doesn't look like they got all the boats off.

 

There seems to be alot of information on You tube on this for cruises. My husband and I (and the kids) want to cruise sometime this year but we are nervous now with this goings on.

 

I saw a post earlier that asked how many of you would cruis again, I'm wondering the same thing but somehow that post got lost.

[TheBestIsYetToCome]

Bumped this from earlier since it seemed to have gotten lost.

 

Is Costa still sailing its ships off the shipping lane?

 

SOmebody is still sailing its ships off the shipping lane. Serena was scheduled to sail between Civ and Savona today, so....

[CeleBrat]

I believe Congress needs to just give the cruise lines some time to work through this issue on their own to see what they plan to do. Unfortunately I also believe some people have called on Congress to do something, anything to butt into this.

 

You are kidding right? Not a issue for USA congress at all, its IMO regulations which are international, USA flagged Your cruise will cost you at least 10 x more, You need US crew, if USA flagged they would have to pay a lot of Tax on any profits too, Ok accidents happen now and then, same as Pilot error on how many plane crashes, Spirit of America I think has usa flag and crew how they manage it I dont know.

 

Some info to settle the debate, from the latest article on msnbc.com:

 

Separately, Rep. John Mica (R-Fla.), chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, said Wednesday he will hold a hearing to review cruise ship safety. The exact date has not been determined, but Mica has requested Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation Subcommittee Chairman Rep. Frank LoBiondo (R-N.J.) to aid in the investigation.

"The Costa Concordia tragedy is a wake-up call for the United States and international maritime organizations to carefully review and make certain we have in place all the appropriate standards to ensure passengers' safety on cruise ships," Mica said in a statement.