Will HAL soon copy Carnival with MDR cappuccino charge?

[Viesczy]

Does anyone here really believe that they're selling cruises, regardless of the ship class, for a loss after all things are considered?

They have data mining programs that can accurately predict what each cabin is going to buy based on age/gender/nationality/religion/political afflilation/who knows what else, that's how they can "discount" the cabins because they're certain of the level of profit they're going to make.

The nickel/dime mentality is just a way for them to make even more profit while providing less to us because of the near sociopathic greed present in the Corporate mindset... the phrase "what the market will bear" ever heard before? Not CCL or HAL, but all Corporations; making the most while providing less to justify the salaries of the few @ the top.

Someone @ the top has a grandiose idea of cutting the staff to provide less to us while getting more profit because that is what the customer will bear, charging for something that is now popular but had been free when it wasn't popular to get more profit because that is what the customer will bear.

Look @ banks and grocery stores! What is the self check out? A giant slap in your face as the prices didn't go down a cent with those installed! You roll in, you find your merchandise, you ring up your merchandise, you back your merchandise, you pay for your merchandise after working for them by ringing it up and bagging it, and you don't get paycheck for working for them or cheaper products! Why? Because that is what the customer will bear.

Look @ banks. You give them your money, you pay them service fees for the luxury of you using your money, and then they lend your money out making far more interest than they pay you in interest on the account. You might even have a loan through them which you then pay, thusly giving them your money twice--once in the loan payment and then in the continued use of your deposit account(s). Why? Because that is what the market will bear.

The law of supply/demand has been flipped... the Corporations demand the profit and we supply the profit like dutiful automatons. Really.

I'm sure the apologists will say that is just good business... We thought it was good business when we nearly drove the bison to extinction to justify/fulfill our "manifest destiny" too. Sociopathic greed, getting over @ all costs is rampant and extolled as if it is a virtue.

Derek

[jaguarstyper]

[quote name='Viesczy']Does anyone here really believe that they're selling cruises, regardless of the ship class, for a loss after all things are considered? [/quote]Yes, I think there are many posters on this board that do believe this. I have seen serious posts suggesting that service cuts, staff reductions and upcharges are a direct result of people buying discounted cabins rather than paying full fare rates on select cruises, people arranging their own shore excursions instead of paying HAL 2-3 times as much to do it for you and people bringing thier own wine instead of paying a 400% markup for HAL's woeful inventory.

[iancal]

I do not know. But look at this way. The cruise lines have fixed costs and variable costs. Fixed are the cost of the ship, fuel, depreciation, and enough crew to keep it afloat so to speak, head office staff allocations, etc. Variable are the food, some staff, food and beverage, etc.

So, if the cruise does not sell well the cruise line will discount out the remaining cabins. Does that lower price cover all costs-fixed and variable? Who is to say.

But one thing for sure is that if they can cover their variable costs they do have a good chance of covering all or a portion of the fixedcosts and maybe making a little because of on board spending.

Another thing for sure is that if they sail with an empty cabin, they have no hope of capturing a profit or any part of the fixed costs that are attributable to the cabin class.

Same deal for the airlines and hotels.

[iancal]

We just got an email from HAL about special pricing on Med cruises, and others. Bookings must be a little weak. We actually booked a 12 day Med cruise for this fall about two weeks ago-with another cruise line based on itinerary/ship/price.

We are paying considerably less money per day for a verandah cabin on that cruise that we would pay per day for similar cabin on 7 day Alaska cruise. In fact, the all in price for the 12 day trip, including gratuities is about the same as a 7 day Alaska trip-maybe even slightly less. That's supply and demand.

Some people are concerned about Europe-Greece in particular and the high air fares. So they are remaining in North America and picking Alaska cruises. We are not so we picked up a great offer on a cruise and will wrap another trip around it to take full advantage of the air fare and the hassle of a long flight.

So perhaps what the cruise lines give up on some Med cruises this summer and fall they will make up on the Alaska run.

[iriemon]

It doesn't really matter to us. We plan on X number of dollars per vacation - yes sometimes we do vary, but we usually have a range. We spend it and have a good time. We started this when all these "extras" came about. If it is a difference of having an expresso or a drink, the drink wins everytime. Rather drink something that cools me down than heats me up.

[sail7seas]

[quote name='readytogo2'][quote name='Viesczy']Does anyone here really believe that they're selling cruises, regardless of the ship class, for a loss after all things are considered?

They have data mining programs that can accurately predict what each cabin is going to buy based on age/gender/nationality/religion/political afflilation/who knows what else, that's how they can "discount" the cabins because they're certain of the level of profit they're going to make.

The nickel/dime mentality is just a way for them to make even more profit while providing less to us because of the near sociopathic greed present in the Corporate mindset... the phrase "what the market will bear" ever heard before? Not CCL or HAL, but all Corporations; making the most while providing less to justify the salaries of the few @ the top.

Someone @ the top has a grandiose idea of cutting the staff to provide less to us while getting more profit because that is what the customer will bear, charging for something that is now popular but had been free when it wasn't popular to get more profit because that is what the customer will bear.

Look @ banks and grocery stores! What is the self check out? A giant slap in your face as the prices didn't go down a cent with those installed! You roll in, you find your merchandise, you ring up your merchandise, you back your merchandise, you pay for your merchandise after working for them by ringing it up and bagging it, and you don't get paycheck for working for them or cheaper products! Why? Because that is what the customer will bear.

Look @ banks. You give them your money, you pay them service fees for the luxury of you using your money, and then they lend your money out making far more interest than they pay you in interest on the account. You might even have a loan through them which you then pay, thusly giving them your money twice--once in the loan payment and then in the continued use of your deposit account(s). Why? Because that is what the market will bear.

The law of supply/demand has been flipped... the Corporations demand the profit and we supply the profit like dutiful automatons. Really.

I'm sure the apologists will say that is just good business... We thought it was good business when we nearly drove the bison to extinction to justify/fulfill our "manifest destiny" too. Sociopathic greed, getting over @ all costs is rampant and extolled as if it is a virtue.

Derek[/quote]


[B] What do you suggest the options are?
Not use a bank?
Not buy groceries?
It isn't what we automatons will dutifully accept, it is there is little choice.

I do not bag our groceries. However, if there are no lines with a store supplied worker checking people out, the choice is what?

Go to the competitor? They're mostly all the same. Like it or not, we need to use banks. We need to buy groceries.

[I consider us lucky to have Whole Foods and Trader Joe, both of which provide better service, near us as well as a few very nice markets that are family owned and not part of a chain but for those without the choice, they have no choice.]

[/B]

[iancal]

The consumer chooses.

We bank where our everyday service charges are essentially nil.

We don't use self service checkouts. There is enough unemployment without taking away someone's job or precluding another hire.

We use a Co-op gas station with full service at regular self service prices. They employ students, high school leavers, and some mentally challenged individuals

[sandij]

I always said that paying extra for the specialty restaurants and such would encourage them to charge for other things and everything.

[Wakepatrol]

An Alaskan cruise is basically the same price it was 10 years ago (maybe cheaper) fuel has gone up,food, shipping, production everything yet the fares have stayed the same.

Now HAL is at a tipping point and must start charging for things. Soon they will make you purchase their soda,wine and water like the other ships.

I recently watched an msnbc cruise ship documentary and the whole make or break scenario was how many drinks they sold during the cruise. Don't know if it's true,but this is what they said on the special.

Don't know why they just don't eliminmate $399 cabins charge $800 and sail half full,the service would be better,and might even feel like the old days (10 years ago)

[kazu]

[quote name='Wakepatrol']An Alaskan cruise is basically the same price it was 10 years ago (maybe cheaper) fuel has gone up,food, shipping, production everything yet the fares have stayed the same.

Now HAL is at a tipping point and must start charging for things. Soon they will make you purchase their soda,wine and water like the other ships.

I recently watched an msnbc cruise ship documentary and the whole make or break scenario was how many drinks they sold during the cruise. Don't know if it's true,but this is what they said on the special.

Don't know why they just don't eliminmate $399 cabins charge $800 and sail half full,the service would be better,and might even feel like the old days (10 years ago)[/quote]

depends on your cabin on if it is the same price or not. Not every cabin on a ship is $399:) and not everyone wants to be there:D Here's the interesting thing - I found an old brochure for shore excursions from 2000 - that price has NOT gone down - if anything it has escalated.


Here's the strange thing - if the cruising price is down so drastically (and I don't think it is unless you take particular cabins), why are there 13 cruise ships being added over the next year?

some people must want to cruise. While I understand that the ships want to sail full, I have to agree, other than the hotel service charge, adding the extra passengers could be questionnable. Of course, one could argue that if they don't spend much on their cabin they have a lot more to spend on board. So the wheel can spin both ways:):)

[Wormy53]

[quote name='Wakepatrol']How about...Just the general dumbing down of the whole cruise experience that gets dumbed down daily. Gone are the days of dressing up,feeling special or pampered,friendly chats with the waitstaff,and the dining room manager checking in at your table every night.

Now it's Joey Bag O Donuts in his sweatpants,who demands entrance to the dining room,lugs his 5 cases of Orange Fanta and two buck chuck aboard and then removes the service charge at the end of the cruise.

Perhaps the ships aren't full,because it just isn't appealing or as glamorous as it used to be.

If it's the same as everyday life,why bother going?

Does HAL really think this type of passenger is going to book a world voyage with them in the future?[/QUOTE]

I think this whole post is very intuitive. I was looking at a different cruise ship company and a different itinerary because we were getting a bit bored and disappointed in the whole cruise aspect. Lots of times it was not the ship and staff, but the others onboard. We tried different lines and categories of cabin. Not trying to sound judge mental, but if you are asking about rum-runners, how to stiff the staff, & trying to use your partner's soda card- that's not usually the people that I would enjoy having dinner with.

We chose a river cruise this next time. Most things are included - maybe this will be a nice change of pace.

[CtheW0rld]

[quote name='sail7seas'][quote name='readytogo2']


[B]What do you suggest the options are?[/B]
[B]Not use a bank?[/B]
[B]Not buy groceries?[/B]
[B]It isn't what we automatons will dutifully accept, it is there is little choice.[/B]

[B]I do not bag our groceries. However, if there are no lines with a store supplied worker checking people out, the choice is what?[/B]

[B]Go to the competitor? They're mostly all the same. Like it or not, we need to use banks. We need to buy groceries.[/B]

[B][I consider us lucky to have Whole Foods and Trader Joe, both of which provide better service, near us as well as a few very nice markets that are family owned and not part of a chain but for those without the choice, they have no choice.][/B]

[/quote]

you pay bank fees? :eek:

[cruz chic]

[quote name='Wakepatrol']An Alaskan cruise is basically the same price it was 10 years ago (maybe cheaper) fuel has gone up,food, shipping, production everything yet the fares have stayed the same.

Now HAL is at a tipping point and must start charging for things. Soon they will make you purchase their soda,wine and water like the other ships.

I recently watched an msnbc cruise ship documentary and the whole make or break scenario was how many drinks they sold during the cruise. Don't know if it's true,but this is what they said on the special.

Don't know why they just don't eliminmate $399 cabins charge $800 and sail half full,the service would be better,and might even feel like the old days (10 years ago)[/quote]
How about if they stop giving the away the cruise to the 3rd and 4th pax. I'm thinking they usually wouldn't be drinking much.

[pms4104]

[quote name='lorekauf']How about if they stop giving the away the cruise to the 3rd and 4th pax. I'm thinking they usually wouldn't be drinking much.[/quote]
Thank you for stating the obvious ... I, for one, am tired of paying double occupany and subsidizing the reduced/free/nearly free 3rd and 4th. I keep hoping that HAL will run a 2nd passenger for free promo.

Seriously, whether the 3rd and 4th spend as much or not, it's purely a business decision to fill the ships. So, that begs the question as to whether this discounting is the result of over-capacity.

[Wakepatrol]

[quote name='lorekauf']How about if they stop giving the away the cruise to the 3rd and 4th pax. I'm thinking they usually wouldn't be drinking much.[/quote]


Yes,this is the first thing I'd eliminate. I'd do it once a year not every other cruise.

I guess it's a bummer HAL is saddled with Carnival and can't get it's OWN identity. Why do they have to lump their ships in with everbody elses.

If you're not the lead dog,the scenery never changes

[Wakepatrol]

[quote name='kazu']depends on your cabin on if it is the same price or not. Not every cabin on a ship is $399:) and not everyone wants to be there:D Here's the interesting thing - I found an old brochure for shore excursions from 2000 - that price has NOT gone down - if anything it has escalated.


Here's the strange thing - if the cruising price is down so drastically (and I don't think it is unless you take particular cabins), why are there 13 cruise ships being added over the next year?

some people must want to cruise. While I understand that the ships want to sail full, I have to agree, other than the hotel service charge, adding the extra passengers could be questionnable. Of course, one could argue that if they don't spend much on their cabin they have a lot more to spend on board. So the wheel can spin both ways:):)[/quote]


Yes I'm only talking about insides and oceanview cabins. Those cabins are the same as they were 10 years ago. How can this be when everything else has gone up?

Shore excursions are a different animal,some passengers walk around town and spend little money and some take extravagant excursions,so don't know how to gauge this.

As for adding ships? Don't know. One poster says they've overbuilt and one says they're building new ships. I certainly wouldn't be building new ships to sell cabins for $449 (somebody just got an alaskan cruise for this,read it on facebook) and have the 3rd and 4th passengers sail for free.

Our big grocery store chain opened up a new store every few weeks a few years back. Now loads of them are underperforming and they were built in areas that now have loads of foreclosed houses around them,so adding stores or ships,does not always pan out.

[sail7seas]

[quote name='CtheW0rld'][quote name='sail7seas']

you pay bank fees? :eek:[/quote]


[B] :rolleyes: :D No.






[/B]

[iancal]

HAL does get some money when it gives away 3rd and 4th. Carnival Corp has agreements in place with many ports in the Caribbean whereby they get rebated up to 70 or 80 percent of the port fees that are charged to each customer. So, all cruiser get charged the port fee, and the cruise line gets back a portion of it.

[bcd2010]

[quote name='Wakepatrol']I certainly wouldn't be building new ships to sell cabins for $449 (somebody just got an alaskan cruise for this,read it on facebook) [/quote]

A few days ago I got an email: $399 for Alaskan cruise, inside or outside. Today I got a near identical email with a price of $349.

[Boytjie]

[quote name='Viesczy']The nickel/dime mentality is just a way for them to make even more profit while providing less to us because of the near sociopathic greed present in the Corporate mindset... the phrase "what the market will bear" ever heard before? Not CCL or HAL, but all Corporations; making the most while providing less to justify the salaries of the few @ the top. [/quote]

What about the consume nickle-and-diming to get everything as cheap as possible? You know, the Walmart mentality. :rolleyes:

[Pettifogger]

I'm delighted to learn that so many posters need not be concerned about charges for cappuccino. Five or more years go, probably most cruise passengers weren't, but now, some of us more price sensitive folk, who used to cruise only occasionally, have been able to cruise more often.

On cruises, my wife and I generally enjoy two cappuccinos at breakfast and one after dinner. If Holland America should adopt the Carnival $2.95 charge, the cappuccino cost for our typical 25 day cruise would be over $200, even after deducting for two days of cappuccinoless room service breakfasts. (At $2.10, it would be near $150.) While I don't remember a specific cruise I chose over another for a $150 -- $200 price difference, I'm reasonably sure there was more than one.

I am so committed to Holland America's traditional ships, civilized passengers, and better dining room stewards than even more expensive cruise lines, that I can hardly imagine a likely new or increased charge that would drive me away, but not everyone feels that same commitment.

It may be that Holland America has already "picked all of the low hanging fruit" as far as economies are concerned and believes it must move on to those that impact the cruise experience. While there are quite a number things in addition to free MDR cappuccino that make HA's cruises more gracious than those of its competitors, giving those things up, one at a time, can only eventually exhaust them.

[pms4104]

[quote name='Pettifogger']I'm delighted to learn that so many posters need not be concerned about charges for cappuccino. Five or more years go, probably most cruise passengers weren't, but now, some of us more price sensitive folk, who used to cruise only occasionally, have been able to cruise more often.

On cruises, my wife and I generally enjoy two cappuccinos at breakfast and one after dinner. If Holland America should adopt the Carnival $2.95 charge, the cappuccino cost for our typical 25 day cruise would be over $200, even after deducting for two days of cappuccinoless room service breakfasts. (At $2.10, it would be near $150.) While I don't remember a specific cruise I chose over another for a $150 -- $200 price difference, I'm reasonably sure there was more than one.

I am so committed to Holland America's traditional ships, civilized passengers, and better dining room stewards than even more expensive cruise lines, that I can hardly imagine a likely new or increased charge that would drive me away, but not everyone feels that same commitment.

[B]It may be that Holland America has already "picked all of the low hanging fruit" as far as economies are concerned and believes it must move on to those that impact the cruise experience. While there are quite a number things in addition to free MDR cappuccino that make HA's cruises more gracious than those of its competitors, giving those things up, one at a time, can only eventually exhaust them[/B].[/quote]
Yes, and if HAL decides to charge for the fancy coffees, and if that proves $ucce$$ful, perhaps the next thing they'll consider is the fresh-squeezed orange juice in the Lido ... either charge for it or send the squeezing machines into mothballs.

[Palmetto Lady]

The last time were were on a Princess ship, they charged for cappachino at dinner in the MDR. This was in 2003. Consequently, no one at our table of 8 ordered it. It was not that we couldn't afford it. It was the principle of it.

[readytogo2]

[quote name='Palmetto Lady']The last time were were on a Princess ship, they charged for cappachino at dinner in the MDR. This was in 2003. Consequently, no one at our table of 8 ordered it. It was not that we couldn't afford it. It was the principle of it.[/QUOTE]

The very first time we ordered cappuccino on a cruise was on Princess, we were charged and I thought that was the norm, we then bought the coffee card which allows for 15 specialty drinks plus unlimited brewed coffee... I felt it was a bargain. As much as we gripe about extra charges we do wind up giving in and paying. Some cruise lines offer certain things for free , others do not, we just go with the flow. If I want a cappuccino, I will order it whether I have to pay for it or not. I totally understand your stand for the principle of it, however if you really wanted it, you are only depriving yourself and the cruise line has no idea of your principles.

[solocanadian]

[quote name='Viesczy']I too believe that they'll start charging folks for them, if there is a large # of consumers who will pay an upcharge that upcharge will be applied. They start with one line and then slowly move to the others.

CCL raised their steak prices by $5 pp too.

As for the coffee types, all that tastes like seepage from a Calcutta catfood factory's cesspool, why do folks drink it? :eek::confused:

Derek[/quote]
[B][SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]That's some description for poor coffee!!![/COLOR][COLOR=purple] LOL:)[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]