Evolution of HAL in 2013........

[sammiedawg]

I assure you I meant no disrespect to anyone. I am responding to the discussion about changes made that seem to cheapen the experience. In my opinion, holland America has decided to find a new core group of passengers, therefore they have repositioned themselves in the marketplace with lower base pricing. This tells me they have lost a portion of their base.

[sail7seas]

I assure you I meant no disrespect to anyone. I am responding to the discussion about changes made that seem to cheapen the experience. In my opinion, holland America has decided to find a new core group of passengers, therefore they have repositioned themselves in the marketplace with lower base pricing. This tells me they have lost a portion of their base.

 

 

Isn't that a given in every business/every cruise line?

 

A certain number of Celebrity, Princess, Carnival et al cruisers die each year. Those cruisers may have been loyal to HAL or any of the other lines? Those same persons may have been loyal to Whole Foods for their groceries but they are no longer on their 'customer rolls' anymore either.

 

Every business loses a certain percentage of their base every week, month, year....... It is not unique to HAL.

 

No?

[cruz chic]

:D Look at it this way......

 

It beats the alternative. ;)

 

Funny, I say that all the time:).

[cruz chic]

One thing no one has touched is the outrageous bonuses that the CEO's are taking. We are talking milllions of dollars in bonuses as well as millions as salary to start with. these are taken on the backs of the cruise ship workers and actually create the cutbacks we are talking about on this thread - just to pay bonuses and dividends to shareholders.

 

Now before everyone attacks me, I am not against bonuses or dividends per se. I just think they should be reasonable. That would leave more money on the books for food, pay for the crew, and to fix "bad" ships.

I agree with you but it's the way of the world.

[sammiedawg]

Bowing out of this discussion but I think holland had an older demographic and has to find even more new customers than their competitors. Again no disrespect intended.

[mariner]

Traditional cruisers are dying off.

 

There is a new generation of cruisers who have only sailed with dimished service, extra charges and rock-bottom prices. That's all they've ever known.

 

So if you're a cruise line executive, who will you be targeting? A dying client base or a whole group who don't realize what used to be?

[bepsf]

HAL positioned themselves in the market decades ago selling smaller ships, larger cabins, interesting itineraries, a traditional cruise experience, quality food, and excellent service.

 

Then they cut back the service.

Then they "updated" the cruise experience with non-traditional dining and such.

Then they downgraded the already lackluster entertainment.

Then they started building larger ships with fewer large cabins.

Then they added cabins to existing ships.

Then they cut the quality of the food.

Then they cut back maintenance.

Then they cut back service some more.

 

Well, some of the itineraries are still interesting...

 

Meanwhile I hear that HAL are having trouble filling cabins - but they want to add more cabins to the Vistas? How does that capital investment make sense?

 

We all know that HAL needs to take drastic measures - IMO, they should be as follows:

Retire/sell/lease out the older ships which aren't making money for HAL, thereby eliminating costly maintenance issues and overcapacity. That would probably mean no more S or R Class ships - or just one or two left in the fleet.

Cancel the contract for the 2015 Newbuild as well as all additions/renovations to existing ships.

Upgrade Maintenance, Shipboard Service and Amenities for the remaining fleet, bringing back the traditional hallmarks of the line.

Redeploy the remaining fleet to longer/more profitable itineraries: No more 7-day Caribbean/Mexico itineraries. No more competing with Carnival, NCL and Princess.

Clear out the Entertainment Management in Seattle - Get some fresh blood in there with a budget for the type of entertainment that will make people book specific cruises just to meet the interesting people who will be aboard (See how Cunard does it with their Enrichment Programs)

Remarket the line as an alternative to Oceania or Azamara - more "Boutique" than Mainstream or Premium - perhaps as a companion-brand to Cunard.

Reconfigure the pricing strategy to better optimize profitability.

 

Meanwhile, get Princess out of the World Cruise business: Within the CCL umbrella, that market belongs to HAL, Cunard and Seabourn.

Advertise the Alaskan land experience Much, Much More - The HAL rail cars truly are the best in the business. However, get out of the Westmark Anchorage and move passengers to the Captain Cook until the Westmark is seriously upgraded.

Follow the rest of the industry by cutting back the amount of beverages passengers are allowed to bring aboard - but match that move with the selection, staff, service and pricing that passengers will appreciate.

 

 

Do I think Micky Arison and Stein Kruse will do this?

Not on your life.

[bepsf]

Traditional cruisers are dying off.

 

This is the type of thinking that destroyed Detroit.

 

We are getting older and we no longer want the Mustangs and Camaros we demanded in our youth.

 

Now that we're older, we want the types of cars our Fathers and Grandfathers had: Mercurys, Oldsmobiles, Plymouths, Continentals...

...but they're not offered any longer. Their customer base was "Dying off" so their managers tried to make all their cars appeal to "young people" - but it turned off their older buyers and didn't fool the younger buyers

 

This is what's happening to HAL: Management is trying to make it into something it's not - a mini-Carnival or mini-Princess.

The effort is not fooling anyone, and it's turning off cruisers from those markets as well as turning off their existing market.

[mariner]

They had a choice many years ago. Go higher end or mass market. We know what they picked.

 

Thankfully, for those who will be around another 20, there are choices. Just not HAL. Just as we have Mercedes, Lexus and Bentleys.

 

Our cars today are designed so they can be sold in the world market and comply with their standards. That's why blind spots are worse.

 

The future of HAL and all lines may hinge less on North American passengers than China and South America.

[sail7seas]

I think HAL would rather those of us who have been around for years would stop telling the 'newbies' what cruising and pampering used to be like. They would just as soon we quietly go about our business and keep it to ourselves how much the experience has changed.

 

Choices,,,,, we all have choices.

Our choice is still HAL or we don't cruise at all. We have no wish to go/look elsewhere and will not do so.

But, we are not HAL's future. We were their past, are their present but not their future.

 

 

 

[Himself]

On this first day of the year, a question came to my mind. :D

 

Those of us who have sailed HAL for many years and many cruises have watched a steady evolution of the cruise line and much has been way in the positive column.

 

Our first cruise was on Noordam III and though the vibration on that ship was very uncomfortable for me, I knew we had found our cruise line of choice during that cruise.

Statendam came out mere months later, we sailed her during Inaugural Season and we are now some 80 cruises later with HAL.

 

Then came Vistas and some of us resisted but many of us came to love those ships as well.

 

Signature met even stiffer resistence but they seem to be welcomed by newer cruisers more than some of the 'older ones'. We are among those who are enjoying Eurodam/Signature more than we expected. Now, here comes Pinnacle and I can't wait to see her.

 

The down side:

The decrease in crew has been noticed by all who know HAL.

The diminishment in quality, variation and specialness of menus and food is obvious to most of us. I often read the menu these days and cannot find anything that 'excites' me? How about quality food, well prepared and served as used to be? Gone! IMO

 

So, I got to thinking......

How can they evolve the company more to keep us coming back, charge fares the majority are willing to pay and still offer something we consider worth buying.

 

If crew gets cut more, it will be unpleasant conditions at best.

If menu quality gets cut more, it will be undesireable IMO seeing dining and lovely meals are important to many of us.

 

So.......

 

I suspect and come close to predicting, the next evolution for many of the cruise lines, including HAL, will be a la carte dining. Pay as you order. I think it might be coming to a ship near us sooner rather than later.

 

I think they may offer a basic Lido included in the fare but all other food on board will be from menu with prices same as any shoreside restaurant and we will pay for what we order.

 

I know this might glean howling of No Way but I'm wondering not so much what you think of this being likely or possible but more what you think will be the further changes coming in the foreseeable future which will have a real impact on our cruise experience.

 

We have to think they are not done with cutbacks.......

Where do you think they will make them?

 

I'm really curious your thoughts.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

I think we "old timers" have seen a great expansion of the fleet. However the personell has not grown as much as the fleet. This is sad! The staff, particularly the dining room staff has been stretched too thin.

 

I have never been a fan of the Vista Class and yet I like the Signature Class very much.

[bepsf]

I have never been a fan of the Vista Class and yet I like the Signature Class very much.

 

I'm curious why you feel that way?

Signatures are nothing more than Vistas with more cabins and an extra restaurant, after all.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

HAL positioned themselves in the market decades ago selling smaller ships, larger cabins, interesting itineraries, a traditional cruise experience, quality food, and excellent service.

 

Then they cut back the service.

Then they "updated" the cruise experience with non-traditional dining and such.

Then they downgraded the already lackluster entertainment.

Then they started building larger ships with fewer large cabins.

Then they added cabins to existing ships.

Then they cut the quality of the food.

Then they cut back maintenance.

Then they cut back service some more.

 

Well, some of the itineraries are still interesting...

 

Meanwhile I hear that HAL are having trouble filling cabins - but they want to add more cabins to the Vistas? How does that capital investment make sense?

 

We all know that HAL needs to take drastic measures - IMO, they should be as follows:

Retire/sell/lease out the older ships which aren't making money for HAL, thereby eliminating costly maintenance issues and overcapacity. That would probably mean no more S or R Class ships - or just one or two left in the fleet.

Cancel the contract for the 2015 Newbuild as well as all additions/renovations to existing ships.

Upgrade Maintenance, Shipboard Service and Amenities for the remaining fleet, bringing back the traditional hallmarks of the line.

Redeploy the remaining fleet to longer/more profitable itineraries: No more 7-day Caribbean/Mexico itineraries. No more competing with Carnival, NCL and Princess.

Clear out the Entertainment Management in Seattle - Get some fresh blood in there with a budget for the type of entertainment that will make people book specific cruises just to meet the interesting people who will be aboard (See how Cunard does it with their Enrichment Programs)

Remarket the line as an alternative to Oceania or Azamara - more "Boutique" than Mainstream or Premium - perhaps as a companion-brand to Cunard.

Reconfigure the pricing strategy to better optimize profitability.

 

Meanwhile, get Princess out of the World Cruise business: Within the CCL umbrella, that market belongs to HAL, Cunard and Seabourn.

Advertise the Alaskan land experience Much, Much More - The HAL rail cars truly are the best in the business. However, get out of the Westmark Anchorage and move passengers to the Captain Cook until the Westmark is seriously upgraded.

Follow the rest of the industry by cutting back the amount of beverages passengers are allowed to bring aboard - but match that move with the selection, staff, service and pricing that passengers will appreciate.

 

 

Do I think Micky Arison and Stein Kruse will do this?

Not on your life.

Brian, I agree with a few of the things you stated but some I totally disagree with for one HAL's true competition is Celebrity, HAL truly has no choice but to have a new build if they want to even come close to competing with Celebrity, while I agree they need to get rid of their older smaller ships they actually should have done that before they start to invest the money they did into the Veendam and Rotterdam and have actually started new builder when Celebrity did or shortly after when they saw how profitable it was for Celebrity.

 

Two. I agree with the maintenance, when something breaks allow the ships to make the decision to spend the money to fix things right away, don't just put a band aid on it.

 

Three, I disagree with the longer more exotic voyages or at least not for the whole fleet, right now Oosterdam is doing New Zealand and Australia and just like another poster mentioned about the Volendam Asia cruises they are having one heck of a time filling the ships. As I suspected or at least for HAL, Australia sailings are weak. There are many cabins remaining for January sailing on the Oosterdam and the price for Flash are extremely low but they are not getting anyone at least from the Northern hemisphere to bite because the air cost is 4 times the amount of the cost of the cabin for 11 nights. Australia/New Zealand is actually over saturated with Cruise Ships that have flooded the area and not enough passengers in the Southern Hemisphere to fill them. Yes there was a time when world travel for HAL was better but the competition from Luxury lines have actually taken a bite into their business.

 

I agree 110% about getting rid of those managing the Entertainment it has gone from bad to worse. And frankly even the HAL Cheerleaders agree on this.

But the biggest thing I disagree with is competing with Azamara because HAL is now promoting Seabourn basically Seabourn is Holland America . The vision for Holland America is already set in stone and that will be bigger ships to compete with Celebrity and those that want to cruise a boutique ship to send them to Seabourn.

 

Last comment CCL Corp will never remove Princess from the World Cruise business because frankly they sell out their world cruises and segments at a much higher per diem than HAL and are consistently sold out months in advance so why get rid of a sure thing :rolleyes:

[kkorman]

This topic really has interested me as I was thinking about the future of HAL the Westerdam in November. We selected the ship for the 499 balcony price on a thanksgiving cruise that was upgraded to the second highest balcony once booked. I mean no disrespect to anyone, but feel cruise lines are marketing to me an my generation. You see it in brochures, adds, etc. After the cruise, I wondered what would draw me back to HAL. The only thing I thought of was price. The cruise was not bad, but there was nothing memorable about the experience. I paid double to sail Celebrity a few weeks later on a non holiday week and given the choice I would pay 2x the price to book Celebrity again. The ship, the experience, the people are all memorable and for someone approaching 40 with no children, Celebrity fits. HAL could be this too, but they are not there.

 

I am really curious to see what the new ship will entail. Unlike many of the traditional cruisers posting, I think the need to make the ship appeal to a new generation, significantly upgrade their entertainment, and make something memorable about the ship. While you might not ice skate, rock climb, etc... People talk about it.

 

The addition of Princess to the CCL really screwed over the HAL brand... They were going after the same cruiser and Princess gave the better experience (IMO). Now you have no clear definition between the 2 cruise lines and you see ridiculously low fares.

[mariner]

The problem was Carnival LOVED Princess and made HAL adopt their policies.

 

Lisa, while Ooosterdam has had booking issues, onboard spending is much higher than North America sailings.

[sail7seas]

This topic really has interested me as I was thinking about the future of HAL the Westerdam in November. We selected the ship for the 499 balcony price on a thanksgiving cruise that was upgraded to the second highest balcony once booked. I mean no disrespect to anyone, but feel cruise lines are marketing to me an my generation. You see it in brochures, adds, etc. After the cruise, I wondered what would draw me back to HAL. The only thing I thought of was price. The cruise was not bad, but there was nothing memorable about the experience. I paid double to sail Celebrity a few weeks later on a non holiday week and given the choice I would pay 2x the price to book Celebrity again. The ship, the experience, the people are all memorable and for someone approaching 40 with no children, Celebrity fits. HAL could be this too, but they are not there.

 

I am really curious to see what the new ship will entail. Unlike many of the traditional cruisers posting, I think the need to make the ship appeal to a new generation, significantly upgrade their entertainment, and make something memorable about the ship. While you might not ice skate, rock climb, etc... People talk about it.

 

The addition of Princess to the CCL really screwed over the HAL brand... They were going after the same cruiser and Princess gave the better experience (IMO). Now you have no clear definition between the 2 cruise lines and you see ridiculously low fares.

 

 

I'm interested.......

 

You used the word 'memorable' a number of times but never defined what that means to you.

 

What would make a HAL cruise/ship memorable per your use of the word?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Oh, one other thing....

Many of us 'old timers' (actually DH and I are not THAT old :D ) have that the younger cruisers might not is time....... many of us can take a lot more time off per year for many more days on the ships. DH is not retired but we sail at least 4 or more times a year. We are rarely aboard less than 10-14 days each cruise.

 

 

 

[kkorman]

I'm interested.......

 

You used the word 'memorable' a number of times but never defined what that means to you.

 

What would make a HAL cruise/ship memorable per your use of the word?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Oh, one other thing....

Many of us 'old timers' (actually DH and I are not THAT old :D ) have that the younger cruisers might not is time....... many of us can take a lot more time off per year for many more days on the ships. DH is not retired but we sail at least 4 or more times a year. We are rarely aboard less than 10-14 days each cruise.

 

 

 

 

As for memorable, I was speaking mostly of the ship and the experience on the ship. However, a memorable meal or crew member would also fit. So what I am saying is that the ships are boring. Design, activities, entertainment just do not compare to the competition. And while that might be appealing to the HAL loyalists, they are not filling ships. HAL needs to attract new cruisers, younger cruisers and from my perspective there is currently not a draw.

 

I understand that many people older than me have more time, but in general ( one can argue this) spend less on board.

[slp123]

From 2000-2007 we cruise about twice a year, mostly on Regent, Cunard (Princess Grill). Per Diem costs were around $250-$350 per pp. per day for a mid-category, and Crystal in mid-ship veranda cabin, less sometimes for Caribbean or Alaska cruise, more for an eastern Med, Baltic or Asian cruise. Airfare was not included in the price and while Regent included free wine at dinner in those days, and sometimes a special free night event on shore, usually including a performing arts event was including during a 10 day cruise. The inclusions were reasonable and if you wanted more you paid for more, be it liquor, upgraded business class fare etc. Today all the luxury lines are falling over each other with special everything included pricing, including free internet, all excursions free and I suppose shortly they will announce that your cabin price includes a pearl necklace for woman and a Rolex watch for men from the ship shop as a thank you parting gift. All that would be great if it was just added to the list of amenities. But the cost of these items get included in the cabin price and now those same cabins cost $500-$700 per day providing me with amenities I don't want. I don't want unlimited free cocktails all days including champagne at brunch. I don't want to go on the same excursions as everyone else on the ship every day just because they are free. Etc. etc.

 

The answer to this trend was Celebrity's new Azamara line and Regents new sister line, Oceania. They offered small ships, high staff/passenger ratios to insure personalized service, a focus on more intellectual entertainment like great foreign films and interesting lecturers from business, universities and political life and some wonderful shore excursions offered at prices that clearly indicated they had worked hard on behalf of the passengers to get some really good values for them. And pricing was around $225-$325 per Diem depending on the cruises itinerary. And so we "jumped ship" so to speak and started cruising on these lines, especially from 2008-2011. But just as luxury lines abandoned their original pricing by believing that they would make far more money by just including a lot more and then burying the cost plus profit into the price of the cabin, Azamara and Oceania began in 2011 and continued through 2012 and have announced for 2013 ever more inclusions (including all the alcohol I don't drink and all the additional food I don't want to eat) so that in January 2014 the same mid ship average veranda cabin is going to cost $375-$425 per day.

 

All the other lines are cutting inclusion in order to compete on base cabin price figuring they will make it up on everything that is a la carte when it comes to extras, excursions, suites, drinks, dining venues and EVEN EXERCISE CLASSES. And should you want to come near to replicating the services once provided to passengers relaxing on a pool deck in want of a deck waiter to offer to fetch them a cocktail or a snack, you can have that at a price, starting at an average of $125 a day when you book a private cabana or alcove. I suppose next they will re-run old Hollywood musicals, call it a film festival and charge you for it.

 

Well HAL be smart, claim the territory being abandoned by everyone else-first you have to stop heading in your current directions--your ships are elegant enough to provide upscale cruises with better quality food in the buffet and MDR than the mass markets, more intelligent entertainment and lecturers rather than some third string Broadway musical revue roadshow and a port lecturer who is nothing more than an excursion rep trying to sell you an overpriced bus trip.

 

Instead include some extras that make you stand out from the mass market and for heaven sakes upgrade your itineraries to at least get me thinking of another cruise in the Caribbean on the Eurodam or Nieuw Amsterdam---you don't have to change every port but really do these ships really have to have identical itineraries for 3 years running. This year we are wintering in the Caribbean aboard Celebrity Reflections.

 

And above all else, stop having the staff constantly do on board tours, events or promotion that are not about entertaining passengers but getting them to shell out more money for more extra’s. It's really tacky and should you ever add more public announcements, just change the ships' livery to Carnivals, make a further cut in the staff/passenger ratio which is already sub-par in some areas and merge the two lines if you are so intent on making HAL into a nickel and dime mass marketing product.

 

The best way to turn a profit is not by cutting costs but by adding value. You have wonderful NY Times sponsored computer/library areas. Why can't you bring aboard a Times staff member to lecture on politics, art trends, current foreign policy? If you are going to Alaska I want to hear lectures from leading environmentalists on the challenges we are facing on an earth which is rapidly warming. If you are going to cruise the Greek Isles I want to hear from someone who can give an intelligent assessment of the path that will save Greece and the Euro zone or predict what may happen if it should fail. Just because it’s a vacation doesn't mean we need to just lie around and be stupid. How about cruise passengers’ being told that such and such a novel is going to be discussed in a 3 series book club meeting and all that they need to do is read the book before the cruise if they want to participate, and then get a college English professor who is on leave to lead the discussion. I have a thousand ideas to make cruises more interesting on board. Some will work and others surely won't---but you have to experiment. You don't see Celebrity sitting on its hands. Its newest ship is going to give art lessons from teachers at the Miami Art Institute. I hope to participate and to learn how to also play lawn bowling and bocce. On my last HAL cruise I couldn't even play shuffleboard. The staff couldn't find a complete set to use.

 

Add some fun things, some innovative activities; catch up on your maintenance. In 2010 I took some friends on the Prinsendam and was embarrassed by what you were failing to do. Three out of the four passenger elevators had badly cracked mirrors in their cars and several more cracked mirrors on their exterior doors on several floors. There was not a chandelier in the smaller room of the MDR that did not have crystals missing and at least 25% of the lights burned out. The desk stool in each of our cabins had chrome legs that were so badly rusted that the chair left skid marks on the carpet when pulled it out from under the desk. If you don't think it worthwhile to keep up a ship, don't keep it at all.

 

And through all this I still loved HAL. But you may lose me. I am sailing on Celebrity in 3 weeks for the first time, and if I can adjust to a ship with 2500 passengers and it provides better food and service at the same price, then you are going to have to make some changes to win me back. (By the way, I think your food has improved each time on my last 3 cruises over the past 2 years. But I am speaking only about Eurodam and Nieuw Amsterdam..I hear from others the other ships have quality issues.

 

But by change I don't mean lower prices. No provide the product that no one is currently offering ... thought itineraries, educational opportunities, more intelligent entertainment, more varied food, innovative cabin and dining venues. The cabins on your N.A. are beyond boxy and drab and that noisy "Manhattan" MDR with 7 mismatched shades of red and mauve where every table is 2 feet from every other and overly hot , low ceiling upper dining level had me wanting to escape the minute the entree could be consumed. Dinner was not an event to be relished it was a necessity to be endured. And you can instantly spruce the ship up by enforcing a consistent dress code that is upscale casual on all nights rather than some 20 year old formal rule that half the passengers refuse to follow and instead dress down in jeans as a sort of protest. Most of the Luxury and Deluxe lines have become more elegant by updating and enforcing a more acceptable yet upscale policy. Then throw in a few reasonable and desirable extras--like some free internet and maybe one load of free laundry a week (I don't want to do my own at home, why would I want to do it on board)--perhaps free drinks for the sail-away--things that will be unique to HAL, fun for the passengers and not so costly that you stay somewhere half way between mass market and deluxe pricing.

 

I own my own company and am happy being my own boss since 1983, but I'd take a leave of absence to help direct a turnaround if you ask nicely enough. I love HAL that much that I am only half joking.

[Wakepatrol]

From 2000-2007 we cruise about twice a year, mostly on Regent, Cunard (Princess Grill). Per Diem costs were around $250-$350 per pp. per day for a mid-category, and Crystal in mid-ship veranda cabin, less sometimes for Caribbean or Alaska cruise, more for an eastern Med, Baltic or Asian cruise. Airfare was not included in the price and while Regent included free wine at dinner in those days, and sometimes a special free night event on shore, usually including a performing arts event was including during a 10 day cruise. The inclusions were reasonable and if you wanted more you paid for more, be it liquor, upgraded business class fare etc. Today all the luxury lines are falling over each other with special everything included pricing, including free internet, all excursions free and I suppose shortly they will announce that your cabin price includes a pearl necklace for woman and a Rolex watch for men from the ship shop as a thank you parting gift. All that would be great if it was just added to the list of amenities. But the cost of these items get included in the cabin price and now those same cabins cost $500-$700 per day providing me with amenities I don't want. I don't want unlimited free cocktails all days including champagne at brunch. I don't want to go on the same excursions as everyone else on the ship every day just because they are free. Etc. etc.

 

The answer to this trend was Celebrity's new Azamara line and Regents new sister line, Oceania. They offered small ships, high staff/passenger ratios to insure personalized service, a focus on more intellectual entertainment like great foreign films and interesting lecturers from business, universities and political life and some wonderful shore excursions offered at prices that clearly indicated they had worked hard on behalf of the passengers to get some really good values for them. And pricing was around $225-$325 per Diem depending on the cruises itinerary. And so we "jumped ship" so to speak and started cruising on these lines, especially from 2008-2011. But just as luxury lines abandoned their original pricing by believing that they would make far more money by just including a lot more and then burying the cost plus profit into the price of the cabin, Azamara and Oceania began in 2011 and continued through 2012 and have announced for 2013 ever more inclusions (including all the alcohol I don't drink and all the additional food I don't want to eat) so that in January 2014 the same mid ship average veranda cabin is going to cost $375-$425 per day.

 

All the other lines are cutting inclusion in order to compete on base cabin price figuring they will make it up on everything that is a la carte when it comes to extras, excursions, suites, drinks, dining venues and EVEN EXERCISE CLASSES. And should you want to come near to replicating the services once provided to passengers relaxing on a pool deck in want of a deck waiter to offer to fetch them a cocktail or a snack, you can have that at a price, starting at an average of $125 a day when you book a private cabana or alcove. I suppose next they will re-run old Hollywood musicals, call it a film festival and charge you for it.

 

Well HAL be smart, claim the territory being abandoned by everyone else-first you have to stop heading in your current directions--your ships are elegant enough to provide upscale cruises with better quality food in the buffet and MDR than the mass markets, more intelligent entertainment and lecturers rather than some third string Broadway musical revue roadshow and a port lecturer who is nothing more than an excursion rep trying to sell you an overpriced bus trip.

 

Instead include some extras that make you stand out from the mass market and for heaven sakes upgrade your itineraries to at least get me thinking of another cruise in the Caribbean on the Eurodam or Nieuw Amsterdam---you don't have to change every port but really do these ships really have to have identical itineraries for 3 years running. This year we are wintering in the Caribbean aboard Celebrity Reflections.

 

And above all else, stop having the staff constantly do on board tours, events or promotion that are not about entertaining passengers but getting them to shell out more money for more extra’s. It's really tacky and should you ever add more public announcements, just change the ships' livery to Carnivals, make a further cut in the staff/passenger ratio which is already sub-par in some areas and merge the two lines if you are so intent on making HAL into a nickel and dime mass marketing product.

 

The best way to turn a profit is not by cutting costs but by adding value. You have wonderful NY Times sponsored computer/library areas. Why can't you bring aboard a Times staff member to lecture on politics, art trends, current foreign policy? If you are going to Alaska I want to hear lectures from leading environmentalists on the challenges we are facing on an earth which is rapidly warming. If you are going to cruise the Greek Isles I want to hear from someone who can give an intelligent assessment of the path that will save Greece and the Euro zone or predict what may happen if it should fail. Just because it’s a vacation doesn't mean we need to just lie around and be stupid. How about cruise passengers’ being told that such and such a novel is going to be discussed in a 3 series book club meeting and all that they need to do is read the book before the cruise if they want to participate, and then get a college English professor who is on leave to lead the discussion. I have a thousand ideas to make cruises more interesting on board. Some will work and others surely won't---but you have to experiment. You don't see Celebrity sitting on its hands. Its newest ship is going to give art lessons from teachers at the Miami Art Institute. I hope to participate and to learn how to also play lawn bowling and bocce. On my last HAL cruise I couldn't even play shuffleboard. The staff couldn't find a complete set to use.

 

Add some fun things, some innovative activities; catch up on your maintenance. In 2010 I took some friends on the Prinsendam and was embarrassed by what you were failing to do. Three out of the four passenger elevators had badly cracked mirrors in their cars and several more cracked mirrors on their exterior doors on several floors. There was not a chandelier in the smaller room of the MDR that did not have crystals missing and at least 25% of the lights burned out. The desk stool in each of our cabins had chrome legs that were so badly rusted that the chair left skid marks on the carpet when pulled it out from under the desk. If you don't think it worthwhile to keep up a ship, don't keep it at all.

 

And through all this I still loved HAL. But you may lose me. I am sailing on Celebrity in 3 weeks for the first time, and if I can adjust to a ship with 2500 passengers and it provides better food and service at the same price, then you are going to have to make some changes to win me back. (By the way, I think your food has improved each time on my last 3 cruises over the past 2 years. But I am speaking only about Eurodam and Nieuw Amsterdam..I hear from others the other ships have quality issues.

 

But by change I don't mean lower prices. No provide the product that no one is currently offering ... thought itineraries, educational opportunities, more intelligent entertainment, more varied food, innovative cabin and dining venues. The cabins on your N.A. are beyond boxy and drab and that noisy "Manhattan" MDR with 7 mismatched shades of red and mauve where every table is 2 feet from every other and overly hot , low ceiling upper dining level had me wanting to escape the minute the entree could be consumed. Dinner was not an event to be relished it was a necessity to be endured. And you can instantly spruce the ship up by enforcing a consistent dress code that is upscale casual on all nights rather than some 20 year old formal rule that half the passengers refuse to follow and instead dress down in jeans as a sort of protest. Most of the Luxury and Deluxe lines have become more elegant by updating and enforcing a more acceptable yet upscale policy. Then throw in a few reasonable and desirable extras--like some free internet and maybe one load of free laundry a week (I don't want to do my own at home, why would I want to do it on board)--perhaps free drinks for the sail-away--things that will be unique to HAL, fun for the passengers and not so costly that you stay somewhere half way between mass market and deluxe pricing.

 

I own my own company and am happy being my own boss since 1983, but I'd take a leave of absence to help direct a turnaround if you ask nicely enough. I love HAL that much that I am only half joking.

 

 

Great post with some great ideas. I've been thinking for years. This is the moment for HAL to seize the opportuinity to be different. Just like Norwegian ran a campaign of freestyle cruising :rolleyes: (which amounts to looking like a bum in your yard clothes) why not start a campaign of elegant cruising,or cruising with style

 

why HAL has decided to be the SAME as all of the other lines,sell cabins for $349 for 7 days and let people tote their own CASES of beverages is baffling.

 

This isn't luxury cruising,it's one step away from camping.

 

Perhaps the new ship will be gold,red and black and will be called

KOA-DAM

[Sophiebaby]

BEPSF said it all. HAL cannot be all things to all people. Focus on interesting itineraries. Leave the "party cruises" to Carnival, NCL, etc. I've been sailing for over 50 years and, like it or not, I'm part of a shrinking demographic. That is why I'm packing as many interesting itineraries into the time I have left to cruise...on the smaller ships in the line. It's a mad dash to see which of us survive longer...me or the ships! Re cars, BEPSF got it right, as far as I'm concerned. I rushed out last year to replace my Impala with another, brand-new Impala. The redesigned 2014 model coming out this year would not be the right fit for me. I need to shift gears on the steering column because of an arthritic hand, and I need a split bench seat. No more 6-passenger Impalas (or Grand Marquis, Crown Victoria, etc.) Life happens. I think HAL either has to break down their cruises into "Fun" cruises and "Explorer" cruises, and, perhaps, to do that, move the "Explorer" cruises to Seaborn.

[BellBoys]

Thanks for sharing all these great ideas and as we researched our next cruise we saw some glaring issues with pricing that left us scratching our heads. We are booking a Panama Canal full transit and were comparing HAL with Celebrity and the difference in pricing was striking.

 

We decided to compare three cruises all are 15 days departing from San Diego:

 

Celebrity Infinity: Royal Suite $5850 per person or Celebrity Suite $4450 per person

Westerdam: SC Corner Aft Suite $5800 per person

Statendam: S Suite $7400 per person

 

The discussion has centered around some of the deep discounts given for the cheapest cabins but the opposite situation is happening at the suite level. The Royal and Celebrity suite cabins we are told are far superior in decor and square footage compared to HAL (in fact the Celebrity suite is almost identical in inside/outside square footage to a Deluxe Verandah. Both suites offer trade offs Neptune Lounge v. Butler, Pinnacle Breakfast v. Blu Breakfast. We love the SC corner but for $50 more or $1400 less in a Celebrity Suite the value is leaning towards the Infinity. The Westerdam looks like a great ship and we are boarding the ship in May for Alaska but compared to Infinity we have the option of three specialty restaurants v. two and a similar suite experience.

 

Further, I think today's cruise passenger is less concerned with ship size in the past. We were just on the N. Amsterdam and were able to find plenty of spots to relax and for $300 were able to secure a Cabana Club for the whole week so crowding was never an issue for us. From a novice cruiser the $7400 for Statendam just looks wildly overpriced and the perceived value is just not there, I just don't see the value in paying $1600 to $2900 per person more on the Statendam is really going to give us a better experience. I do understand that smaller ships are more expensive to operate and passed down to the consumer, but does the consumer really see that . In reading the boards lately it is also a ship that has its share of problems. Just our two cents for what its worth.

[jaguarstyper]

I wish I had the answers, but alas, I do not. It seems to me that HAL is clinging to an outdated business model in today's cruise market. A lot of people who are interested in paying typical mass market prices for cruises are looking for the larger, more exciting ships. These are the new generation of cruisers. They no longer want the "elegant" and "traditional" cruise experience that HAL has been selling for years. Yes, there is still a market for this type of cruise product, but the market is shrinking. Premium lines can fill their ships because they have a lot less ships to fill and many people who want the "elegant" and "traditional" experience are moving to them instead of staying with HAL. So, in many ways, HAL has been caught hung out to dry with a product that less and less people want to buy. And, judging from the low fares being offered and service cutbacks witnessed, they are not reacting to the changing market very well.

 

IMO, HAL ships have become stale and boring compared to some of its competitors. I realize that some people like the stale and boring atmosphere, heck I may be one of them. But, I do not think I am in the majority. I just came off of Westerdam and my 3 travel companions on this cruise had a total of 4 days of previous cruising experience between them. They included a 19 year old, a 30 year old and a 44 year old. All three of them said they found the cruise to be enjoyable, but somewhat boring. The 19 year old met and talked with another 19 year old in one of the ports that was on an RCI ship in port at the same time. All she could talk about at dinner that night was all the cool things her new friend was doing on the RCI ship. She said she would like to go on another cruise, but not if it was on Holland America and she represents the future of cruising.

 

RCI seems to be pretty successful filling up their two mega-liners. So much so, they are building 2 more of them. But, HAL cant fill up a 1900 passenger ship without offering cut rate fares. Why? RCI is offering what a lot of people want and HAL isnt. Its really that simple. The industry is changing and HAL will either need to make changes to offer what people want or slim down their operation to a capacity the market can support. There is a market for "elegant", "traditional" and "boring", but its shrinking. HAL needs to adapt or they will go the way of the dodo bird.

[SeaBands]

the ships seemed more interesting and more choices for specialty dining. We ended upbooking Ryndam as the itinerary was about the same and the cost a bit less. We were going to take a suite but none were available and no ss/sy on that ship. HAL is like a comfortable pir of shoes. It's just easier to deal with them and of course we have OBCs and 4 star bonus deals.

[Sea42]

You can't group everyone into categories. My husband has been retired for 8 years but at 60 years old his idea of retirement is not sitting around for days on end, reading or watching the world go by. One day of that in between busy port days is enough for him.

So for us the onboard experience is never going to be the main appeal of cruising. We look at the ship as a means of transportation and lodging. (Not that we don't enjoy relaxing on our balcony at the end of a busy day) For us cruising is all about the itinerary. The dining experience on the ship is not nearly as important as the meals we enjoy in the various ports. The entertainment the ship offers pales in comparison to the fun we have in port either on our own or with the wonderful people we've gotten to know here on CC.

No cruise line can be all things to all people but as long as HAL has itineraries that appeal to us, we'll keep coming back.

[cruz chic]

I see a lot of people leaning towards Celebrity. I took a cruise on Celebrity maybe about 8 years ago and didn't like it. I decided to take another one in 2012 to see if that was an anomoly. It wasn't. The one I took several years ago was much better. The service overall was not good and the food was a mix, really bad or quite good. I didn't think the ship was anything special. That said, I've never liked the decor on HAL ships and I'm pretty self entertaining so that's not a biggie either. I can see HAL ships being boring for people that constantly need something happening but that's one of the things that I enjoy about HAL, the ships are generally quiet.