The other side of cruising...

[CowPrincess]

As always, I love your fresh approach. Nothing new has happened around here, VallyD, it's always been this way. These days I seldom get into these discussions, just shake my head and move on. But I wanted to comment on your post:)

 

Thank you ;)

[iancal]

CowPrincess...exactly why so many companies, including the large well known multinationals, are replacing employees with contractor and also moving work offshore. I worked for one, and regularly had to lay off employees who were subsequently replaced by lower wage contractors who could be released without cause. HAL and Carnival Corp are no different.

 

Does anyone out there really think that a HAL crew member would risk the chance of being released or not having their contract renewed by complaining to a passenger about their job?? Not a chance. They will always say good things...unless they have no intention of returning to the industry.

 

The opposite is true...their job is to make cruisers feel good and part of that is telling the cruisers that they love their jobs and their employer. Every customer facing employee on the ship is there for the specific purpose of making the passenger feel good.

 

After all, that 'nice' cruiser could be a cruise line employee...a company spotter on board to evaluate the ship, service, and employees.

[CowPrincess]

iancal, I've thought for a long time that the customer-facing crew are nice to the pax primarily because THAT is how and why they get paid. Honesty is not the best policy in ALL circumstances :D

 

I know that when I worked a regular job, I'd put on my "game face" and head into the office and do my job and be pleasant to people. Not because I loved everyone I dealt with, but because if I'd expressed my true feelings on occasion, I probably wouldn't have had a job :D

[world~citizen]

...

as an aside, and hopefully not thread drift : how is the bird?

 

Doing extraordinarily well. And even better, a friend that came to Athens to bird sit for us tells us she is willing to do it again even though we are not now in such an exotic locale. Ther bird loves his Aunt Dorothy, so it looks like a cruise is possible again - perhaps a back to back Canada - New England cruise on the Maasdam this fall.:) (or maybe just 7 days one way - we will see how jittery we get about it)

 

(Kind of you to ask.)

[mariner]

First, most ships have been crewed by other countries since ships started sailing.

 

In fact, US crews and their unions left the United States Lines no choice but to get out of the passenger line business.

 

While none of us would work their hours, they earn through wages and tips enough of an income to live quite well in their countries. And compared to many Americans, an even better life (maid included).

 

Lastly, most passengers would throw a fit if they had to pay fare to cover the wages of crew if the lines complied with US law.

[iancal]

Absolutely agree.

 

But it is certainly not the Alice in Wonderland utopia 'below decks' on HAL that some would have you believe.

[mariner]

It aint Alice in Wonderland where I work either. HAL ships follow Dutch labor laws. The captains I know are quite strict in enforcing it.

[mamaofami]

Reading further down in that article, about passengers getting sick on board a ship. It's true that the doctors can not be sued for malpractice, no matter what they might do that injures a passenger's health. Most of the doctors I have had to see on board were great( only saw a few) but they are not held accountable. When my husband worked as a dentist on HAL, he had to have his own mal practice insurance, so I don't understand why the doctor's are considered special contractors and dentists weren't.

 

Also, there's the matter of crime on board or people who go missing. Some may jump or cause their own injuries, but what do we really know about what happens after a passenger reports a crime.

 

I believe that some of the things this attorney is reporting are valid.

[mariner]

I have found ships far safer than where I live and I don't live in a crime-ridden place.

 

I believe most who go over the side do so on their on accord.

 

That said, don't be dumb. Don't invite attention or mistreat someone.

 

An attorney like him is often shopping a practice.

[swedish weave]

I see many varied opinions posted about how the crew members are treated. As in any business, you will have some that are disgruntled and some that are very happy. The majority fit in the category of staying on the job because it provides for their families.

 

I have had the privilege of getting to know many of the crew members on NCL, and have seen pics of their homes, hobbies, and family members. They live well and are happy with their jobs because they are making much more income than they would receive for similar jobs in their home countries. They don't want sympathy or pity. they want you to let the company know they are doing a good job because that leads to promotions and better benefits.

 

Many have a long range plan and are on a course to start their own businesses and may or may not continue to work on the ships after they reach their goals.

 

I recently met some on a Princess cruise that I knew from NCL several years ago. They are also happy with their jobs, and they know they don't have to BS me because I am acquainted with many of their co-workers and friends --- even some of their family.

 

The true story for many is far from the dreadful life depicted by the ambulance chaser.

[mariner]

well said

[LAFFNVEGAS]

I totally agree swedish weave. I too am friend with several crew that decided to not renew their contract we chat on facebook and they miss working on the ship but due to family things have decided to stay home. But not one have anything bad to say and they actually talk about returning so things are really not that bad as the cruise atty would like people to believe. Could there be instances of problems, oh yes but I can guarantee you in every city in North America there is thousands of employees not happy with their employment and are most likely being treated far worse than many on the ship. Like I said I think there are many that live in a bubble thinking that everything is a perfect work world for those that work in North America.

[mariner]

I guess Mariner gets overlooked. Whatever.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

I guess Mariner gets overlooked. Whatever.

actually mariner for once we are on the same side of the street :D

[mariner]

Vegas, we're on the same side more than you know

[sail7seas]

First, most ships have been crewed by other countries since ships started sailing.

 

In fact, US crews and their unions left the United States Lines no choice but to get out of the passenger line business.

 

While none of us would work their hours, they earn through wages and tips enough of an income to live quite well in their countries. And compared to many Americans, an even better life (maid included).

 

Lastly, most passengers would throw a fit if they had to pay fare to cover the wages of crew if the lines complied with US law.

 

 

Yes and

 

It aint Alice in Wonderland where I work either. HAL ships follow Dutch labor laws. The captains I know are quite strict in enforcing it.

 

 

Yes.

 

We've gotten to know a great many crew members through the years. That includes Captains and brand new bar/cabin stewards etc

 

The stewards who renew contract after contract surely can have jobs at home in fine hotels and resorts. They are well trained, speak at least two and more languages and are all healthy and able or they would not be on the ships. They choose to return and renew contracts time and again. They must be getting from these job what they need and want. Life at sea is not for everyone but for some, it is the style of life they want. It seems to be working for many of them.

 

 

[mariner]

It is and has led to the growth of the middle class in many countries.

[Vict0riann]

Many times I have looked at the smiling crew, and thought "They can't possibly be that happy, they have to have been told by their supervisors that they must always smile at the passengers and make nice." But when I have talked to them, most really seem happy to be doing what they're doing. Of course they miss family and friends at home, but they're seeing the world and managing to send money home, and they're on skype regularly, and pass on news to friends on board. It really seems like a family on board! If they have a spouse on board that's great for them. Or they're trying to organize contracts so they will be together the next time. They have family looking after their children, who seem to thrive and do well in school. They're young, and will be able to make a go of their future careers when they do return to dry land! I think they're great. :) Ann

[pv girl]

If you want to see what US labor laws and US wages would do to cruising, take a look at NCL Pride of America sailing around the Hawaiian Islands. Inside rooms at over $200 a day. They have to follow all the rules since they sail wholly within the US.

 

Don't flame me - just throwing this out there as food for thought.

[world~citizen]

It aint Alice in Wonderland where I work either. HAL ships follow Dutch labor laws. The captains I know are quite strict in enforcing it.

 

Probably true. Dutch labour law, as I understand it, does not apply to mariners at sea with respect to important regulations such as working hours. In this case, the Captain is in charge and is not encumbered by regulations as they apply to landlubbers. Also, foreign employees can be treated differently than Dutch nationals in certain legal proceedings.

 

I have always thought this is why HAL was able to flag Dutch.

[world~citizen]

Yes and

 

 

 

 

Yes.

 

We've gotten to know a great many crew members through the years. That includes Captains and brand new bar/cabin stewards etc

 

The stewards who renew contract after contract surely can have jobs at home in fine hotels and resorts. They are well trained, speak at least two and more languages and are all healthy and able or they would not be on the ships. They choose to return and renew contracts time and again. They must be getting from these job what they need and want. Life at sea is not for everyone but for some, it is the style of life they want. It seems to be working for many of them.

 

 

 

You may be interested to know in the context of this thread, globalization has led to the diminishing of international seafarers rights - which is to say the general direction is backward.

 

Cruise lines have terrific lawyers.

[VallyD]

As always, I love your fresh approach. Nothing new has happened around here, VallyD, it's always been this way. These days I seldom get into these discussions, just shake my head and move on. But I wanted to comment on your post:)

 

When are we sailing together again? :cool:

 

I think people live in a bubble that think that many people from the US and probably Canada only work a 40 hour week 5 days a week:rolleyes:, there are millions of Americans that work two 40 hour a week jobs to make ends meet, and have enough money for their family. There are millions of Americans that work strictly on commission busting their butt to make decent living. I find I work far more hours and three times harder than I ever work in the car business. I feel sorry for those car salesman this week in the South West US with 113 degree weather here in Vegas today and on weekends they all work bell to bell meaning they are outside in the heat waiting for the next sale open to close for about a 13 hour day and yes sometimes they are standing around not working hard but sometimes not. I think those that have had cushy jobs that have been 9 to 5 tend to forget that there are many that work as hard as crew members on a ship. Grant those here in America are here with loved ones but that paycheck does not go nearly as far as those who work on the ship that do collect tips. While I truly appreciate the dedicated crew members I am not naive to know that many here at home work as hard and similar hours.

 

Exactly, thank you. To think that terrible work conditions, long overtime hours (which I don't get paid extra for either), living in a constant state of fear that you may NOT make those tips every day, having no health care, working under the table in conditions in which workers compensation would not apply, and having the pressures of providing for an entire family are some how limited to land-based jobs and the cruise industry is some how immune to this is entirely naive.

 

I think that's the longest run-on sentence ever written, apologies.

[VallyD]

CowPrincess...exactly why so many companies, including the large well known multinationals, are replacing employees with contractor and also moving work offshore. I worked for one, and regularly had to lay off employees who were subsequently replaced by lower wage contractors who could be released without cause. HAL and Carnival Corp are no different.

 

Does anyone out there really think that a HAL crew member would risk the chance of being released or not having their contract renewed by complaining to a passenger about their job?? Not a chance. They will always say good things...unless they have no intention of returning to the industry.

 

The opposite is true...their job is to make cruisers feel good and part of that is telling the cruisers that they love their jobs and their employer. Every customer facing employee on the ship is there for the specific purpose of making the passenger feel good.

 

After all, that 'nice' cruiser could be a cruise line employee...a company spotter on board to evaluate the ship, service, and employees.

 

This too! When I was a waitress I was caught crying in a bathroom once myself. When asked what was wrong, I said I just found out my Grandmother was in the hospital. That was a lie. I had been working for 12 hours on Mother's Day and approached a table with a Grandmother, Mother, and her toddler who was the age of my son at the time. I commented on the organic fruit juice the little one was drinking that they had brought with them asking where to get some for my son and the Grandmother snapped " What have you done with your life, you are entirely too young to have children" and scoffed in disdain. I refused to wait on the table, turned it over to a manager and went directly to the bathroom to cry because I got written up for it and threatened with being fired. Things are not always as they seem.

[Seago2]

As always, I love your fresh approach. Nothing new has happened around here, VallyD, it's always been this way. These days I seldom get into these discussions, just shake my head and move on. But I wanted to comment on your post:)

 

I have hesitated whether to drop in but I wanted to echo this.

 

There are so many ways to look at the crew angle. I've been down there on the ship's tour- admittedly, what they wanted me to see. My father is a naval architect so I've been in the belly of many navy ships, container ships, and submarines (I have nightmares about those). Like VallyD, before I became a lawyer, and I used to be a maritime lawyer just like Mr. Walker, yet NOT, I was a waitress and a single mom. Also, like many of you on here, I've developed relationships with crew that have continued via email. I know one guy in particular who is on his fifth contract since I met him. Now- he's above decks- he's a waiter on Carnival, a nice position- but it's his fifth contract and there's no way to get around the fact that if it was that bad these crew members would not be re-upping repeatedly, year after year. It doesn't seem fair that the first thing they do is sign on the dotted line to pay for their flight home and their agent's fee, and that they are paid absolute peanuts, and I am not going to sit here like so many others and say "but they are always smiling! All good!", but the fact is: a contract is 8-10 months long and they choose to re-up repeatedly.

 

In a way it's not much different than the kids coming out of high school without a ton of options around where I live. Do they really want to go and fight for their country? Maybe so. But a lot see joining the navy as a way to get out of a dying US rust belt city and have some way, besides working at McDonalds (which is below poverty level at full time), to support a small family. Next thing you know they are oiling small screws below sea level and living in close quarters and wishing they were home.

 

Either way these people deserve our support and respect and VallyD is a great voice around here.

[Topsham]

Probably true. Dutch labour law, as I understand it, does not apply to mariners at sea with respect to important regulations such as working hours. In this case, the Captain is in charge and is not encumbered by regulations as they apply to landlubbers. Also, foreign employees can be treated differently than Dutch nationals in certain legal proceedings.

 

I have always thought this is why HAL was able to flag Dutch.

 

 

Dutch labour law DOES apply to foreign seafarers working on board Dutch flagged vessels.

 

All of the crew agreements and condditions of employment are structly regulated with ITF... International Transsport Federation rules.

 

Captains ARE very much 'encumbered' by regulations and there are more of them that apply to seafarers than 'landlubbers'.

 

HAL can register their ships in the Netherlands because the company that owns the ships is a Netherlands Antilles registered company and they comply with all the laws and regulations for flagging a ship under that flag.

 

Can you show me anywhere that any ship in the fleet is owned by Holland America Line in Seattle?

 

Seafaring is not for sissies. If you don't want to go away for long periods from your family, find another job. If you object to long hours, find another job... but the rules giverning working hours and rest periods are more strctly controlled than in most occuppations four on shore.

 

Could conditions for seafarers be better? Absolutely! Would passengers be willing to pay an additional 20% on their fares to increase the wages of the crew? I doubt it. Heck, most are looking at ways to cheat their cabin steward out of $3.50 per day tip and even worse.... "We don't see the pot washer or engine room wiper... why should part of out service charge go to them?" Is there abuse on board? Probably some... probably less than any hotel or business on shore that employs 1,000+ workers. Are passengers safe on board? Safer than any hotel or any city anywhere in the world.

 

Even the lowest paid crewmember on board will have a reasonable two berth cabin with electricity, hot and cold, toilet, shower,lights, heat, airconditioning, fresh towels and bed linen, a laundry, internet access, three squares a day, a crew bar and recreation areas, TV, a doctor and dentist within reach, a complaints proceedure with access to Security and even the Captain. Add onto that.... regular wages, more than likely higher than whaat you could earn at home allottments sent home to wife and family, an employment contract that will be renewed if you do your job right. As I said, not for everyone but there are no press gangs and no one is forced into the job. So if you accept the conditions of employment and likie the life at sea.. go for it. I spent 13 years at sea and found it to be a great job and greatly rewarding and with shipmates that were second to none. We never expected anyone on shore to understand the life.

 

So... all the stories out there... yes, some are undoubtedly true but most are exaggerated or misunderstood and ship's passengers are notorious for getting it wrong. The last thing I would do is believe anything tha an ambulance chasing lawyer claims to be true! And that is not intended to insult the legal profession... just the ambulance chasers!

 

Stephen