Who was the hotel director and head chef on the Shadow?

[UKCruiseJeff]

Generally, what you see are Captains and officers being arrested for violations of SOLAS or MARPOL international regulations, and in some cases for damages caused by the ship (I believe this is covered by IMO). A ship is sovereign soil of its flag state, just as an embassy is. If a crime happens within an embassy's grounds, the local country cannot arrest, I believe, even if committed by non-diplomatic persons.

 

I think there is concurrent jurisdiction of foreign ships whilst in US waters. Embassys are not the same as ships.

 

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[whogo]

That's fine but we are specifically discussing criminal activity not civil.

 

As an aside on the civil front certainly in the UK you can take civil action against SS or any foreign company here irrespective of what they say in their contracts because none of it is enforceable if unfair. This would very much be "unfair". We're pretty clear. If the contract was completed in the UK ie on-line to a co.uk or over the telephone to a UK number then the contract was made here and a claimant has the right to claim and have it heard at the nearest court to their home address. It really is that simple. It is only if the have dialed an overseas number or booked on an overseas web site that things may be a touch murkier but not necessarily so.

 

 

But, discussing criminal law. I think you will find that whilst they cannot interfere with foreign civil legislation they can board and arrest on any vessel within their waters where they have reason to believe that a criminal offence has taken place. They can then investigate and arrest. The only immunmity to this are bona-fide individuals that can prove diplomatic immunity.

 

If there were a criminal law triggered which could be as little perhaps as obstructing an official in the line of his lawful duty or investigations or perhaps falsely making a declaration on an official document etc then I would be most suprised if an arrest couldn't be made. A simple question and a dishonest reply might be a criminal act.

 

What may prevent this is diplomatic sensitivities ... but I sort of doubt that they are prevented from arresting per se. They'd just call up the line to see what their bosses want them to do.

 

This makes sense to me. I can see problems for anyone prosecuting a case. Any crew member involved in fraud/conspiracy/whatever will have long ago left the US as will have any crew member that could be called as a witness.

[UKCruiseJeff]

US customs and border officials routinely board anything in their waters and make arrests.

 

Embassies are created by treaty not by foreign national law. A company can open a building in the US but it isn't an embassy until the US government signs a mutual treaty to say that it is. Customs officials canot enter a foreign embassy on US soil, but it can board and search any ship in it's waters.

[chengkp75]

I think there is concurrent jurisdiction of foreign ships whilst in US waters. Embassys are not the same as ships.

 

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Jeff;

 

Here are a couple of links that I found after a quick search. The first is a statement to a US House committee by the head of the FBI about US jurisdiction over foreign vessels. It is difficult to determine whether his bullet points of jurisdiction are "and" or "or" points, particularly the third one "The crime occurred in the U.S. territorial sea (within 12 miles of the coast), regardless of the nationality of the vessel, the victim or the perpetrator;" which would seem to bolster your arguments.

 

http://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/crimes-against-americans-on-cruise-ships

 

So, I looked up the US Code that he quotes, which is the second link. It appears to me that the points Mr. Hernandez makes are "and" clauses, except where "or" is specified. Therefore, the key is that the offense must be against a US citizen either on the high seas (outside any nation's jurisdiction), or on a foreign ship where the US citizen has a scheduled arrival or departure from the US. Other than those two instances, the first point of the US Code takes precedence, that the ship must be owned by a US citizen or corporation (wholly or in part)(which is also Mr. Hernandez' first point). If it is a US owned vessel, then the FBI has jurisdiction regardless of the nationality of the victim or accused. The cruise lines take great care in maintaining that they are not US shipowners for this reason (there is a fairly tight legal description of who a US shipowner is), and to keep from paying US taxes.

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/7

 

For whogo: This is exactly what happened back in the '90's (I think it was then), when there was a spate of sexual assaults on cruise ships by foreign nationals, and the cruise lines just sent them back to their home country for a job on a ship that didn't call on the US. This is what led to the Cruise Ship Safety Act (or whatever its exact name is).

 

If you guys read this differently, let me know.

[chengkp75]

US customs and border officials routinely board anything in their waters and make arrests.

 

Embassies are created by treaty not by foreign national law. A company can open a building in the US but it isn't an embassy until the US government signs a mutual treaty to say that it is. Customs officials canot enter a foreign embassy on US soil, but it can board and search any ship in it's waters.

 

Yes, Customs can board vessels within our waters, and have been given the right to arrest and seize articles, regardless of the nationality of the vessel. However, they cannot arrest someone for murder, only for violation of customs or immigration laws. These rights are given to all nations under UN/IMO charters, GATT agreements, etc.

[UKCruiseJeff]

Yes, Customs can board vessels within our waters, and have been given the right to arrest and seize articles, regardless of the nationality of the vessel. However, they cannot arrest someone for murder, only for violation of customs or immigration laws. These rights are given to all nations under UN/IMO charters, GATT agreements, etc.

 

 

With respect, the idea that US authorities cannot board a ship moored up at Miami and question and arrest someone on board for murder I find to be a suprising suggestion. :)

[UKCruiseJeff]

On an absolutely tangential curiosity. In the UK any citizen has the power of "citizens arrest". Does the same concept exist in the US?

[chengkp75]

On an absolutely tangential curiosity. In the UK any citizen has the power of "citizens arrest". Does the same concept exist in the US?

 

I have no idea. The theory is bandied about all the time, but I don't know its base in law or its limits.

[UKCruiseJeff]

ipad duplicate.

[chengkp75]

With respect, the idea that US authorities cannot board a ship moored up at Miami and question and arrest someone on board for murder I find to be a suprising suggestion. :)

 

Fair enough, but I would ask an Admiralty lawyer over there whether or not the UK had jurisdiction over an Indonesian crewman killing another Indonesian crewman on a Panamanian flagged ship. I specify an Admiralty lawyer, as that area of law is so particular that I know there are specialists in it in nearly every country, and general lawyers don't have a clue about Admiralty law.

[UKCruiseJeff]

I have no idea. The theory is bandied about all the time, but I don't know its base in law or its limits.

 

It dates back in the UK to medieval times, but is still a respected right. I made one a long time ago, but hadn't realised I had done so.

 

Anyone in the UK has the power of arrest if another person is committing an offence.

 

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[chengkp75]

It dates back in the UK to medieval times, but is still a respected right. I made one a long time ago, but hadn't realised I had done so.

 

Anyone in the UK has the power of arrest if another person is committing an offence.

 

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To carry your tangent even further, if someone beats you while you are making the citizens arrest, is this resisting arrest, or simple assault and battery?

[UKCruiseJeff]

Fair enough, but I would ask an Admiralty lawyer over there whether or not the UK had jurisdiction over an Indonesian crewman killing another Indonesian crewman on a Panamanian flagged ship. I specify an Admiralty lawyer, as that area of law is so particular that I know there are specialists in it in nearly every country, and general lawyers don't have a clue about Admiralty law.

 

To be honest, I'm in awe of your knowledge and accept it all almost unquestionably about the engineering/ cdc stuff. But I think you're being a bit too complicated about this. The idea that some customs border officials can board a boat in US waters, find nothing but have one of them stabbed by a crew member and let them go is a bit of an incredible idea to me.

 

Earlier you mentioned that Embassies were the same as foreign flag ships which they clearly are not, and I think you should presume that US authorities have unlimited jurisdiction in criminal issues over ships within their waters.

 

Happy to hear the very strange news this isn't true but I don't believe for a moment that the US treats ships moored at their ports as though they were foreign accredited embassies.

 

Anyway let us not fall out ....:)

[chengkp75]

To be honest, I'm in awe of your knowledge and accept it all almost unquestionably about the engineering/ cdc stuff. But I think you're being a bit too complicated about this. The idea that some customs border officials can board a boat in US waters, find nothing but have one of them stabbed by a crew member and let them go is a bit of an incredible idea to me.

 

Earlier you mentioned that Embassies were the same as foreign flag ships which they clearly are not, and I think you should presume that US authorities have unlimited jurisdiction in criminal issues over ships within their waters.

 

Happy to hear the very strange news this isn't true but I don't believe for a moment that the US treats ships moored at their ports as though they were foreign accredited embassies.

 

Anyway let us not fall out ....:)

 

Let's either drop this, or start a thread where some legal types on CC can look at this.

 

One last parting shot: are you saying that the Customs officer is stabbed by a crew? Then it falls into a foreign ship in US waters with a crime against a US citizen. If you are saying that a Customs agent would not arrest one crew for stabbing another, you are correct, unless the Customs agent had been seconded to the FBI or a state law enforcement agency as well as being a Customs agent.

[UKCruiseJeff]

To carry your tangent even further, if someone beats you while you are making the citizens arrest, is this resisting arrest, or simple assault and battery?

 

I have no idea. I don't think so though, Just common assault probably. When I made my arrest I didn't know I'd made it until I read about it. Luckily this chap gave up quietly although my wife gave me a good telling off! The police took me out for a night and got me drunk so I guess that was a result. I was also given £ 20 from public funds and a certificate by the High Sheriff of London on behalf of ...The Queen! Us Brits are very strange.:D

[5waldos]

I thought that if a ship was in a nation's waters that that said contries laws applied. There have been drug busts, for example, as well as investigations of murder onboard shisp at port. International waters are another kettle of fish completely.

[Silver Spectre]

Helmut Huber was the Hotel Director. Whilst I realise that there are some on this board that seem to dislike him (or perhaps his slightly germanic manner) I have sailed with him four times in the last three years and never found him to be anything other than helpful and where HO allows some latitude (which as most of you understand is very little) he will do as much as is possible to assist.

 

When the Cloud had its original a/c issues Helmut pushed HO as hard as he could to get a very reasonable deal for all the onboard pax before disembarkation, along with Ken Watson, and for the vast majority did a great PR job for Silversea.

 

Its a pity that Ken Watson is no longer with SS.

[Travelcat2]

Helmut Huber was the Hotel Director. Whilst I realise that there are some on this board that seem to dislike him (or perhaps his slightly germanic manner) I have sailed with him four times in the last three years and never found him to be anything other than helpful and where HO allows some latitude (which as most of you understand is very little) he will do as much as is possible to assist.

 

When the Cloud had its original a/c issues Helmut pushed HO as hard as he could to get a very reasonable deal for all the onboard pax before disembarkation, along with Ken Watson, and for the vast majority did a great PR job for Silversea.

 

Its a pity that Ken Watson is no longer with SS.

 

He may be a fine man. However, IMO, if he was "Hotel Director" at the time of the inspection, he should no longer be with Silversea.

[Rally]

He may be a fine man. However, IMO, if he was "Hotel Director" at the time of the inspection, he should no longer be with Silversea.

 

It is our understanding he was sent home early.

[Rally]

I thought that if a ship was in a nation's waters that that said contries laws applied. There have been drug busts, for example, as well as investigations of murder onboard shisp at port. International waters are another kettle of fish completely.

 

That was my understanding as well, but perhaps am wrong (certainly not the first time . . . See "scrummy" :). As a young man I remember the drinking age being lowered as soon as we were so many miles away from port?

[RachelG]

As far as criminal charges if someone eats bad food and dies, that would not happen unless you could prove criminal intent. There was a case of massive E. coli infection from tainted food served by a restaurant here in Oklahoma where several people died. No criminal charges. The restaurant was shut down by the health dept until they corrected the problem, but they eventually reopened. They did have some civil lawsuits.

[Keel Haul]

On an absolutely tangential curiosity. In the UK any citizen has the power of "citizens arrest". Does the same concept exist in the US?

yes its called the 9mm glock and a conceal permit.

[AtMaui]

Having just spoken to corporate on a totally unrelated matter, Martin Blanar is now the hotel director on the Shadow. We sailed with him on the Whisper and Spirit and he was very accommodating.

 

Jaci

[Emtbsam]

Having just spoken to corporate on a totally unrelated matter, Martin Blanar is now the hotel director on the Shadow. We sailed with him on the Whisper and Spirit and he was very accommodating.

 

Jaci

 

Good luck to Martin. He has come a long way!

[Stumblefoot]

On an absolutely tangential curiosity. In the UK any citizen has the power of "citizens arrest". Does the same concept exist in the US?

 

Only if your first name is Gomer.