Kids on Seadream

[wripro]

Perhaps they should change the name of the line from Sea Dream to Sea Nightmare!

[Jim Avery]

An update on this thread. Earlier in this thread, back in August, it was mentioned to email Pam Conover about kids on board. I remarked that I had emailed her back in February and received no response of any kind. A day or so later, I received an email from a member of management in Miami who had seen the posts here on Cruise Critic and who requested a copy of my correspondence so that she might "personally deliver it to Ms. Conover". I sent a copy of the earlier email and received a confirmation email that it was received and would be delivered. So far, as of this date, I have had no response again. Just an update for those who might be interested.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Jim Avery

[Zimmy]

An update on this thread. Earlier in this thread, back in August, it was mentioned to email Pam Conover about kids on board. I remarked that I had emailed her back in February and received no response of any kind. A day or so later, I received an email from a member of management in Miami who had seen the posts here on Cruise Critic and who requested a copy of my correspondence so that she might "personally deliver it to Ms. Conover". I sent a copy of the earlier email and received a confirmation email that it was received and would be delivered. So far, as of this date, I have had no response again. Just an update for those who might be interested.

 

The timing of your response from SD certainly indicates that someone is reading these boards. Whether or not they care what we think remains to be seen. The experiences related on this thread, while totally accurate, cannot be making the SD marketing department happy. If what has been going on on the yachts regarding unruly children is making those of us with multiple cruises booked nervous, I can't imagine that word of this is attracting new customers (except negligent parents with unruly toddlers, perhaps).

 

Just this week I booked plane tickets to Copenhagen for next July's fiords cruise, and I'm crossing my fingers and toes hoping that it goes well. A great part of the joy of a cruise is the anticipation, and none of us should be having these trepidations.

 

For us it is just two months now until our Panama Canal/Costa Rica cruise. The middle of November is not generally a time when families with kids travel, and I certainly didn't give that a thought when we booked it, but I have been increasingly nervous since FT reported on her kiddie cruise in the Med last summer. I find myself thinking about which cruise line we will switch to when we are forced to switch.

 

Thanks for letting us know the latest, Jim. Please keep us posted.

[vandrefalk]

Jim, there is no doubt that Miami is aware of this thread. . . . .

Now, whether or not the top echelon appreciates the seriousness of the concerns expressed here may be another question.

 

Interestingly enough, it appears that Ms. Conover is hosting an event in my area later this fall -- and I plan to attend :). I suspect the subject will come up at least in private. . . . .

 

I've also checked on our 9 - 23 Nov cruise -- there is one child on board for the first nine days and none noted for the second 5 day cruise into Costa Rica. I don't think the child will be a problem -- if it's only one, the rest of us can figure out something to do with him/her :D No information on large groups, though.

 

I guess I've been lucky in that I've never experienced the problems some other posters (especially FT and Jim) have had. While several of our cruises have had children on board (usually with larger family groups), they've generally been well behaved. A little annoying at breakfast perhaps, but not so bad it would turn me off SD. I've had more problems with larger groups -- but even if they eat on pool deck every night, they're pretty much out of sight. In a perfect world. . . . . .

 

Vandrefalk

[Zimmy]

I've also checked on our 9 - 23 Nov cruise -- there is one child on board for the first nine days and none noted for the second 5 day cruise into Costa Rica. I don't think the child will be a problem -- if it's only one, the rest of us can figure out something to do with him/her :D No information on large groups, though.

Vandrefalk

 

I am SO happy to hear that! Thank you for sharing, Vandrefalk.

[JES4845]

Sadly as one onboard the recent two week cruise in the Black Sea marred by children and a group that acted as if it had chartered the entire ship, while Miami may be like NSA and listening in on us, they frankly don't seem to care or at least don't see this as a problem the way we do. After numerous candid emails, including exchanges today, they finally admit they will continue to allow children. They think they can improve their internal processes once kids are onboard (whatever that means), ban kids under 12 from the Jacuzzi, and when too many kids are onboard (more than 5) restrict them to separate kids pool hours such as the AM. I am in the advocacy business as my profession and despite my best efforts, they are unmoved. They claim not to encourage kids but of course the policy as reprinted on this thread does encourage them if 13 plus and well traveled, and ok if younger so long as the parents think carefully about it (whatever that means). They also claim that only five cruises since 2001 resulted in backlash from other passengers. While also claiming that kids are not the norm, and saying we should know that from our now nine prior voyages, they continue to cater to the vast minority with kids. Why are they so desperate? Everyone needs to make their own decision about what risk of kids they will assume and tolerate. As noted in a thread today, a big part of the joy from a trip is not only the trip itself but anticipating it in a positive way, not trepidation when so much time and money are at stake. Granted SD will advise if asked about kid counts, but as we are now experiencing this is cold comfort when a count isn't close to accurate until final payment is due, and even then it may change for the worse thereafter. Waiting until final payment means most if not all of us have already made nonrefundable flight reservations and other plans. With at least nine kids of various ages on the Costa Rica and Panama trip departing Dec 28 we had so looked forward to as our holiday present to each other we today canceled and asked for a full refund as final payment wasn't due for a few weeks. We have two trips booked for next year including two weeks in Asia. We are likely to cancel those as well. We took nine trips since 2008 based on the original advertising of 56 couples. That is now clearly out the window. SD may not be Sea Nightmare as an earlier writer harshly opined, but very sadly it is moving toward Sea Disney. At least for us, that isn't a relaxing cruise on a luxury yacht. The attitude from communication with Miami makes a mockery of the yachting not cruising mantra that the onboard crew works so hard to deliver. We will miss the crew and retain fond memories of voyages that brought us back year after year, but I won't be surprised if the Black Sea kiddie/group cruise turns out to be our last.

[frequent traveler]

Sadly as one onboard the recent two week cruise in the Black Sea marred by children and a group that acted as if it had chartered the entire ship, while Miami may be like NSA and listening in on us, they frankly don't seem to care or at least don't see this as a problem the way we do.

 

They also claim that only five cruises since 2001 resulted in backlash from other passengers. While also claiming that kids are not the norm, and saying we should know that from our now nine prior voyages, they continue to cater to the vast minority with kids.

 

 

SD may not be Sea Nightmare as an earlier writer harshly opined, but very sadly it is moving toward Sea Disney. At least for us, that isn't a relaxing cruise on a luxury yacht. The attitude from communication with Miami makes a mockery of the yachting not cruising mantra that the onboard crew works so hard to deliver. We will miss the crew and retain fond memories of voyages that brought us back year after year, but I won't be surprised if the Black Sea kiddie/group cruise turns out to be our last.

 

JES,

Unfortunately I agree with you on all of the above - I find it hard to believe that only 5 voyages since 2001 "had backlash" -- I know of 6 where MANY customers complained, I was on two of those, another one was a week after our last SD voyage, and at least 3 different ones have been posted about on this board and we know people on those cruises. And I know that on our last one - nothing was offered by SD, not even an apology for not enforcing the behaviour policy (such as it is)

 

Unfortunately, we have moved to larger ships, having booked our next one on another luxury line (still considered "small") but large to us based on SD. SD cabins are so small, that if you are trying to avoid the hoodlums, you don't even have a decent private area to retreat to for peace and quiet. We too may have made our last SD voyage.

 

FT

[wripro]

Kids on Sea Dream are no longer a problem for me since I will never book another cruise with them. The ships are far too small for that and I will not cause myself stress by having to worry about it.

[Jim Avery]

FT, I agree as we have had 4 SD cruises impacted negatively by kids/groups. I guess I am not counted as I did not call Miami and complain. Wripro, sadly, I think many of us will take that course as it is very disappointing to hear that SeaDream continues to refuse to address this issue. Calling SD SeaDisney is getting to be not far off the mark. It is a bit like learning an old friend is losing their mind. What are they thinking?

[wripro]

Jim,

 

They are obviously not thinking about their loyal passengers. It's always a shame to write off something you like but that's what I have done.

[lincslady]

Kids on Sea Dream are no longer a problem for me since I will never book another cruise with them. The ships are far too small for that and I will not cause myself stress by having to worry about it.

 

Ditto here - the last cruise of our three with SD had this problem, so we will not be travelling again with SD either. It is interesting to see, at last, a SD thread which is not just people saying how wonderful SD is. We found other aspects we did not like on board, but the entitled families was the last straw.

[Threedox]

There was only one kid on our cruise (Sea Dream 2, Aug 31-Sept 7). She was about 12 or 13 and very well-behaved.

[JES4845]

Threedox, we too have had voyages with only a few that were well behaved. The problem of course is that as we and others here can attest you don't know whether you are getting angels or devils until it is too late when you are fully paid, onboard and underway.

 

If the SD policies were different one could take the risk knowing that either there would be no one under 18 or at most a few well-behaved teenagers as you and we have experienced. We all look to vacations to relax and we get few opportunities certainly not so many that we can afford the time and money on a roll of the dice. It is sadly clear that SD HQ either doesn't grasp the depth of the problem or knows it but is trying to have it both ways with both families and couples who prefer peace and quiet on the same small ship at the same time. Sometimes it works maybe most of the time, but when it doesn't as it didn't for us last month it undercuts enjoying the trip so much that at least for us it isn't worth the substantial kiddie risk.

 

If it weren't for the crew we all consider friends and extended family, I wouldn't care so much. This reminds me of when Las Vegas tried to be family friendly a decade ago and it backfired big time. The same is likely to happen here but the consequences for a two-ship luxury yachting cruise company will be more severe and less likely to be repaired.

[JES4845]

For those interested in the latest kids kraziness as to SD, please check the nearby "cheating on SD" thread.

[JES4845]

To close the loop here on this unfortunate saga with kids undermining SD, we canceled both our Costa Rica/Panama and Asia voyages with full refunds as we had not yet made final payments. We are keeping only one booking active for next year (at least for now) with the hope that the situation improves by then or we get lucky and no kids are on that cruise. If anyone has been on a recent voyage or heard about good or bad reports as to families with children please let the rest of know whether it worked out with them onboard or not.

[commander courageous]

While I concede one can "escape" the young ones on a larger ship, I would very much appreciate hearing the "kids policy" on companies like Azamara, Windstar, Royal Clipper, Regent, ... you get the point.

 

We have been on many of these lines and had well behaved children aboard and

so am wondering if in fact their policies are vastly different from SD, and we were just lucky.

 

We are not quite ready to "through the baby out with the bathwater" quite yet because, as mentioned above, SD is like family and we really do enjoy it.

[lincslady]

My impression is that as well as some of these lines having more space and facilities for children, the staff on Seadream are somewhat hampered at times in disciplining children and their parents because of the ownership of the line. Plus the most entitled and badly behaved kids we have come across have been on Seadream. Go figure, as they say.

[Jim Avery]

While I concede one can "escape" the young ones on a larger ship, I would very much appreciate hearing the "kids policy" on companies like Azamara, Windstar, Royal Clipper, Regent, ... you get the point.

 

We have been on many of these lines and had well behaved children aboard and

so am wondering if in fact their policies are vastly different from SD, and we were just lucky.

 

We are not quite ready to "through the baby out with the bathwater" quite yet because, as mentioned above, SD is like family and we really do enjoy it.

 

I have to say you have been lucky. Hope it holds for you. While we have one currently booked on SeaDream, I don't like the apprehensive feeling that has evolved with the recurring kid problems we have had. I like simple excited anticipation of a holiday much better. Hoping for the best here in Costa Rica. Time will tell. I will be interested in your take when you end up on one of the kiddie cruises at great expense.

[Jim Avery]

My impression is that as well as some of these lines having more space and facilities for children, the staff on Seadream are somewhat hampered at times in disciplining children and their parents because of the ownership of the line. Plus the most entitled and badly behaved kids we have come across have been on Seadream. Go figure, as they say.

 

We have to agree with you about the badly behaved kids. In fact, we have not had such negative impact on any other line, including Carnival. Only on SD. I think that speaks to the total unsuitability of the physical ship for children and adults at the same time.

[JES4845]

We really enjoy SD too which is why we continue to be baffled by their approach to children. As often stated here, many of us were attracted (one might even say lured) to SD when it was expressly marketed as 56 adult couples etc. That changed sometime after our first voyage in 2008. Yes one can have a trip even with children, young through teenagers, that works out OK. One can also have a trip with only mild irritations and annoyances. But one can have and we have had a trip seriously undermined by a group of children. Let's also be clear as one of the last threads underscored that the problem with unruly children is the apples don't fall far from the trees as the parents of the unruly kids are a related part of the problem. This is why the SD policy doesn't work as they basically leave it up to the parents to decide if the kids are well traveled and well behaved. Parents who are a problem think their children are perfect so the policy relies on the very source of the problem hence it's inherent flaw.

 

The bottom line is buyer beware. You won't know if it is going to be a problem until it is a problem after you are fully paid and onboard. You face a risk continuum from no children to well-behaved through to a major problem. It is a roll of the dice. Given the small size of the yachts that is otherwise a big benefit there is not much the crew can do except in extreme situations. At that point who wants to listen to or get in the middle of a dispute between well-heeled rude parents and the crew? At that point the damage is done.

 

Several recent attempts to persuade SD management to take stronger upfront steps have failed. Our concerns were belittled as "your preference not to travel with children." Ownership is indeed the apparent source of the lax approach so each of us needs to assess the risks and make an informed decision. As noted on other replies, SD sales staff will advise how many kids and of what ages are on board a given voyage to aid in making that informed decision before departure. I know for sure we will cut our SD cruises way back to a small fraction of what they would have been otherwise as a result of our experience last month and the lack of steps we feel should be taken to protect the vast majority of us who don't subject others on a luxury vacation to our little monsters.

[JES4845]

By the way, I can't resist saying responding to a prior post about the writer not wanting to "throw the baby out with the bath water" by not going on SD because of kids. Don't worry, SD won't throw the baby out with the bath water, SD effectively keeps the babies on board in the pool and Jacuzzi waters and throws out loyal customers like us that actually pay top dollar and just want the relaxing vacation we think we supposed to get. I also think that the catering to children is unfair to the hard working crew.

[commander courageous]

Everyone continues to rattle on about kids on SeaDream but no one answers

my question at to "what is the policy on competing lines like Azamara, Windstar, Royal Clipper, Regent, etc." I am not going to abandon ship for another company and then find out that they don't have a "no kids" policy either.

 

Now, will someone who is in the know enlighten me as to other policies and

I will then be in a better position to evaluate my loyalties to Sea Dream.

[Jim Avery]

Everyone continues to rattle on about kids on SeaDream but no one answers

my question at to "what is the policy on competing lines like Azamara, Windstar, Royal Clipper, Regent, etc." I am not going to abandon ship for another company and then find out that they don't have a "no kids" policy either.

 

Now, will someone who is in the know enlighten me as to other policies and

I will then be in a better position to evaluate my loyalties to Sea Dream.

 

Having not sailed on any of those lines you mention, I cannot speak to what actually happens on board (as opposed to published "policy). I also am not trying to impinge on your loyalty to SeaDream. Good for you. I hope all your voyages are perfectly fine. I, and others, have only recounted some of our actual experiences. As Disney Jen always says: "Your mileage may vary".:D

[JES4845]

Commander you ask a fair question and I didn't mean to ignore it. Like you I've not wanted to abandon SD only to find the same or worse elsewhere. From what I have researched so far, none of those lines bans kids. Children seem to be a potential problem across those lines as well to varying degrees. This is based on checking threads on their CC forums. However, as pointed out here, it is a particular problem on SD when it occurs given the small size of the yachts. This is both a function of the physical layout with no kids areas and small rooms so when a group of kids and adults acting like same disrupt the pool, for example, there are few other places to go. Thus, while those lines you mentioned allow kids, they often have kids programs/areas as well as adults only areas; SD has none. Our conclusion is just we likely won't cruise as much. No one else likely matches the service when the kids don't interfere.

[vandrefalk]

I can only speak for Regent (we sailed Navigator in Alaska last year), but think the other lines you mention have similar policies. Like SD, they discourage kids and Regent says they don't have kid programs. Having said that, there were a number of families on our Alaska cruise and there was no formal kids program for them. The cruise director tried to set some things up that seemed to work fairly well.

 

So, the bottom line is that many cruise lines will discourage children but do not prohibit them. Larger (mass market) will encourage them. As Jess says, the problem with SD is its size -- it's a lot easier to get away from little monsters when there are 500-700 other people on board as the ship is just simply larger and has more escape hatches.

 

I think the ONLY lines that prohibit kids are ones like Saga and Golden Circle (or whatever it's called). They cater strictly to senior citizens (I think you have to be over 50 to even book). So, everywhere else, you pay your money and you take your chances. It is a bit of a crap shoot, but that's the way it is. . . .

 

Vandrefalk