Carnival Open Loop Cruises - Passport Confusion

[dwjoe]

Does this make sense to anyone? Carnival is telling people that they can cruise with just a birth certificate on "open loop" cruises, i.e. one that starts and ends in different US ports. This is contrary to WHTI (the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative) which requires a WHTI-compliant document such as a passport, passport card, or enhanced driver's license to enter the US by land or sea. There is an exception to this for closed-loop cruises, i.e. one that begins and ends in the same US port, but not open loop cruises.

 

In this CCL roll call thread for the 11/16/2013 San Juan to Miami cruise it is discussed at length. One poster cites an internal CCL document that states a Birth Certificate is an acceptable proof of citizenship on an open loop cruise.

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=39411645&postcount=1528

 

https://www.goccl.com/~/media/files/irman/bookccl/sections/traveldocs.ashx

 

The internal CCL document cited states explicitly that BCs are acceptable for specific open loop sailings, including one on 8/7/14 that transits the Panama Canal. Excerpt below.

 

Cruises that begin and end in a different U.S ports

 

 

For these cruises that begin and end in a different U.S port, ALL guests are required to carry proof of citizenship AND proof of identification.

• Carnival Dream 4/05/14 cruise: Port Canaveral/New Orleans
  
• Carnival Sunshine 4/06/14 cruise: Tampa/Port Canaveral
  
• Carnival Legend 8/17/14 cruise: Tampa/Long Beach
  
• Carnival Splendor cruises (10/24/14): New York/San Juan
  
• Carnival Splendor cruise (11/01/14): San Juan/Miami
  
• Carnival Pride cruise (3/15/15): Tampa/Baltimore
  

Proof of Citizenship: A birth certificate or any of the WHTI-Compliant Documents listed below are acceptable.

Proof of Identification (I.D): A non-expired government-issued photo I.D is required of all guests 16 years of age and older.

 

Also, CCL's web site says something similar (emphasis added):

 

The Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI) allows U.S. citizens (including children) sailing on cruises that begin and end in the same U.S. port to travel with one of the WHTI compliant documents, listed below. Additionally, the same document requirements apply when taking a cruise that begins and ends in a different U.S. port.

 

• Original or suitable quality copy of a Birth Certificate (Issued by a government agency: state/county/city) and a government issued photo ID if 16 years of age and older.

[smeyer418]

have they done these before? If so CBP may have told them its ok even though their(CBP) website says something else.

[LHT28]

Maybe it works because it begins & ends in A US port ..maybe it does not need to be the same US port ???

 

We need passports so it is not a problem for us

[Shmoo here]

Maybe it works because it begins & ends in A US port ..maybe it does not need to be the same US port ???

 

We need passports so it is not a problem for us

 

The problem is the difference between a closed-loop cruise (begins and ends in the same US port) and an open-jaw cruise (begins in one US port and ends in a different US port).

 

According to the Customs and Border Protection website:

 

U.S. Citizens on closed-loop cruises will be able to enter or depart the country on the cruise with proof of citizenship, such as an original or copy of his or her birth certificate (issued by the Vital Records Department in the state where he or she was born) and, if 16 or older, a government issued photo ID. If the child is a newborn and the actual birth certificate has not arrived from the Vital Records Department, we will accept a Hospital issued birth certificate. The United States does not require you to have a passport. (A Consular report of Birth Abroad issued by the Department of State or a Certificate of Naturalization is also acceptable.)

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1139/kw/closed%20loop

 

and according to the US State Department website:

 

U.S. citizens and nonimmigrant aliens from Canada entering the United States by land or sea are required to present a valid WHTI-compliant document, which include:

•Passports

•U.S. Passport Cards

•Enhanced Driver's Licenses

•Trusted Traveler Cards (NEXUS, SENTRI, Global Entry or FAST)

•Military Identification Cards (for members of the U.S. armed forces on official orders)

•U.S. Merchant Mariner Document (for U.S. citizens on official maritime business)

•Enhanced Tribal Card (where available)

 

except for

 

"Closed Loop" Cruises: U.S. citizens who board a cruise ship at a port within the United States, travel only within the Western Hemisphere, and return to the same U.S. port on the same ship may present a government issued photo identification, along with proof of citizenship (an original or copy of his or her birth certificate, a Consular report of Birth Abroad, or a Certificate of Naturalization).

http://www.cbp.gov/travel/us-citizens/whti-program-background/docs-land-sea

 

Which leads me to believe that Carnival is playing a dangerous game by telling passengers on those cruises that start in San Juan and end in a US port that all they need is a birth certificate and photo IDs (for those over 16).

 

I'm not saying that it's not been allowed, I just can't find anywhere that says that it is acceptable.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Shmoo here

[njhorseman]

Maybe it works because it begins & ends in A US port ..maybe it does not need to be the same US port ???

 

We need passports so it is not a problem for us

 

No...the US government rules rule specifically state that birth certificates are only acceptable as proof of citizenship on closed loop cruises.

 

This is really odd, and if anything some cruise lines won't even allow a passport card or EDL for US open jaw cruises and require a passport.

[LHT28]

I have read the rules in the past for the WHTI perhaps they are being more flexible with the cruise lines now

It was just a thought

 

We always travel out of Canada with a passport so we are covered with any rules that may apply

 

I know U.S, Citizens have more relaxed rules in some cases

[njhorseman]

Now it's not just stated in an internal Carnival document, but also in their public website FAQs:

The Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI) allows U.S. citizens (including children) sailing on cruises that begin and end in the same U.S. port to travel with one of the WHTI compliant documents, listed below. Additionally, the same document requirements apply when taking a cruise that begins and ends in a different U.S. port.

 

• Valid U.S. Passport

• Passport Card

• Original or suitable quality copy of a Birth Certificate (Issued by a government agency: state/county/city) and a government issued photo ID if 16 years of age and older.

• Original Certificate of Naturalization

• Trusted Traveler Program Membership Card, e.g., Nexus Card, Sentri Card or Fast Card

• Enhanced Tribal Card

• A Consular Report of Birth Abroad

• Enhanced Driver's License (EDL) - only acceptable at land and sea ports of entry. Cannot be used for air travel outside the U.S. Please check if your state issues EDLs.

[njhorseman]

I just did a quick search of NCL, Royal Caribbean and Princess FAQs and was unable to find any published changes in requirements similar to Carnival's. Those cruise lines continue to state that birth certificates are only permissible on closed loop cruises.

 

I also did a search of CBP's website as well as the Federal Register and found no evidence of a change to the published regulation, which can be found at 22 CFR 53.2 . Of course DHS could make an unpublished discretionary change without making a formal change to the regulation. Perhaps they granted Carnival an exception after the Carnival Triumph fire.

Edited March 18, 2014 by njhorseman

[dwjoe]

Since the regs have not changed, that leaves us two possibilities: either CCL is wrong, or they have some kind of special exemption. The Carnival Triumph incident resulted in the Triumph arriving at a different US port than the port of departure, thus changing a closed loop cruise into an open loop cruise. Presumably there were many cruisers traveling with just a birth certificate. The ship was cleared by CBP. Not sure if that has anything to do with the apparently blanket acceptance of BCs on open loop cruises that CCL has posted.

Edited March 18, 2014 by dwjoe

[Shmoo here]

Since the regs have not changed, that leaves us two possibilities: either CCL is wrong, or they have some kind of special exemption. The Carnival Triumph incident resulted in the Triumph arriving at a different US port than the port of departure, thus changing a closed loop cruise into an open loop cruise. Presumably there were many cruisers traveling with just a birth certificate. The ship was cleared by CBP. Not sure if that has anything to do with the apparently blanket acceptance of BCs on open loop cruises that CCL has posted.

 

As in, the situation may repeat itself that a Carnival ship will have to disembark passengers at a different port than the embarkation port? So they are just allowing for problems that may cause this to happen?

[njhorseman]

As in, the situation may repeat itself that a Carnival ship will have to disembark passengers at a different port than the embarkation port? So they are just allowing for problems that may cause this to happen?

 

I think they may just be tired of dealing with Carnival. ;)

 

There was the ship that got towed back to California, the fire on the Triumph, and the ship where passengers had to disembark in St. Maarten and fly back to the US. This saves them the trouble of having to grant exceptions on the next one.

Edited March 18, 2014 by njhorseman

[Purplsmurf]

I would travel with a passport anyway. What happens if you are in St Martin for instance and something happens and you can't get back on the ship. Your passport would definitely be needed. Any cruise I have ever been on says that not only do we need a passport but it is HIGHLY recommended that you take it with you at the ports. You never know what could happen!!

 

 

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[jchoward1]

I am going on sunshine repositioning cruise. My friend wants to go last second. (we leave in 5 days) carnival tells me no passport is needed. He obviously doesn't have time to get one. Should he go? What's the deal with carnival?????

[Shmoo here]

I am going on sunshine repositioning cruise. My friend wants to go last second. (we leave in 5 days) carnival tells me no passport is needed. He obviously doesn't have time to get one. Should he go? What's the deal with carnival?????

 

What's the itinerary on the cruise?

[jchoward1]

Nola...Jamaica...... Aruba..... Carauco.... St Thomas.....port Canaveral

 

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[Shmoo here]

Nola...Jamaica...... Aruba..... Carauco.... St Thomas.....port Canaveral

 

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That cruise would require a passport. Not sure who at Carnival is saying "no passport" but they're not right.

[jchoward1]

There website and I called and.asked twice

 

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[Donray]

The problem is the difference between a closed-loop cruise (begins and ends in the same US port) and an open-jaw cruise (begins in one US port and ends in a different US port).

 

 

Where did you get the wrong idea that a Closed Loop Cruise cannot begin in one USA port and end in another?

 

Where is your proof?

[Shmoo here]

Where did you get the wrong idea that a Closed Loop Cruise cannot begin in one USA port and end in another?

 

Where is your proof?

 

A cruise that originates and terminates in the same U.S. city is referred to as a closed-loop cruise.

http://www.us-passport-service-guide.com/passports-for-closed-loop-cruise.html

 

*"Closed Loop" Cruises: If you are a U.S. citizen and you board a cruise ship at a port within the United States, travel only within the Western Hemisphere, and return to the same U.S. port on the same ship, you may present a government issued photo identification, along with proof of citizenship (an original or copy of his or her birth certificate, a Consular report of Birth Abroad, or a Certificate of Naturalization). Please be aware that you may still be required to present a passport to enter the foreign countries your cruise ship is visiting. Check with your cruise line to ensure you have the appropriate documents.

http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/passports/information/do-i-need.html

 

Hence the term "closed loop" meaning a circular trip with no opening. A cruise from New Orleans to Port Canaveral is not closed loop.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Shmoo here

[njhorseman]

Where did you get the wrong idea that a Closed Loop Cruise cannot begin in one USA port and end in another?

 

Where is your proof?

 

The definition of closed loop requires beginning and ending in the same port. The regulation can be found at 22 CFR 53.2 (CFR means "code of federal regulations).

 

Here's the relevant portion of the regulation, which spells out exceptions to the requirements to carry a passport. In particular note the part highlighted in red, and the words "same United States port or place from where he or she originally departed ."

 

 

 

(b) A U.S. citizen is not required to bear a valid U.S. passport to enter or depart the United States:

(1) When traveling as a member of the Armed Forces of the United States on active duty and when he or she is in the uniform of, or bears documents identifying him or her as a member of, such Armed Forces, when under official orders or permit of such Armed Forces, and when carrying a military identification card; or

(2) When traveling entirely within the Western Hemisphere on a cruise ship, and when the U.S. citizen boards the cruise ship at a port or place within the United States and returns on the return voyage of the same cruise ship to the same United States port or place from where he or she originally departed. That U.S. citizen may present a government-issued photo identification document in combination with either an original or a copy of his or her birth certificate, a Consular Report of Birth Abroad issued by the Department, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services before entering the United States; if the U.S. citizen is under the age of 16, he or she may present either an original or a copy of his or her birth certificate, a Consular Report of Birth Abroad issued by the Department, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services; or

Edited April 2, 2014 by njhorseman

[jchoward1]

Carnival is saying that it's the same port OR different port in.the USA. I have called 3 times now

 

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[Shmoo here]

Carnival is saying that it's the same port OR different port in.the USA. I have called 3 times now

 

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I will just point out that Carnival isn't the final word on this. The State Department is. And according to them, this type of cruise requires a passport.

 

Have you asked Carnival for a cite of where you can find that it's not required to have a passport for a cruise that begins and ends in DIFFERENT US ports. Or call the State Department yourself for confirmation.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Shmoo here

[smeyer418]

I will just point out that Carnival isn't the final word on this. The State Department is. And according to them, this type of cruise requires a passport.

 

Have you asked Carnival for a cite of where you can find that it's not required to have a passport for a cruise that begins and ends in DIFFERENT US ports. Or call the State Department yourself for confirmation.

actually its customs border protection(cbp) part of Homeland Security that has the final word. State only issues passport, it doesn't decide who gets admitted.

[crzndeb]

Carnival is saying that it's the same port OR different port in.the USA. I have called 3 times now

 

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Look at this way...it is a very small percentage that cruise, actually read any type of message boards. So that means a very large percentage have probably been told the same thing by Carnival reps.

 

Your friend can take the chance and go. Just be prepared if they don't allow boarding. But, then again, the same thing might happen to a lot of people.

 

I would have Carnival fax you a letter that this cruise is acceptable without a passport, and take it along. Your choice.

Edited April 2, 2014 by crzndeb

[jchoward1]

No worries. In light of the troubles he's just not going. I wish getting a passport was easier and faster without having to fork over lots of money. Oh well thanks for the replies

 

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