Service Charges on NCL

[Tutankhamen]

 

3. I said that for those who reduce the $12/day, and don't tip the exact same amount (or more) directly - which gets put back into the pool - the crew receive less money. Less money = harder to attract & retain good crew. That leads to poor service ratings, and a vicious cycle. Over time the cruiseline discounts to attract passengers, doesn't make enough to profit, and flounders.

 

 

.

 

Boy, why didn't I say that? Oh wait, that is exactly what I have been saying! Take the ability to remove or lower the "service charge" away from the cruisers. Put it in the base fare so there is nothing to lower or argue.

 

As you said "Less money = harder to attract & retain good crew. That leads to poor service ratings, and a vicious cycle".

 

NCL, Pay your hard working crew. Put the cost in your base fare. I do not know how much of the base fare goes towards the officers, food, entertainment and such, so do the same with the wages for your service employees. Then allow me to tip and reward good service.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Tutankhamen

[sparks1093]

Boy, why didn't I say that? Oh wait, that is exactly what I have been saying! Take the ability to remove or lower the "service charge" away from the cruisers. Put it in the base fare so there is nothing to lower or argue.

 

As you said "Less money = harder to attract & retain good crew. That leads to poor service ratings, and a vicious cycle".

 

NCL, Pay your hard working crew. Put the cost in your base fare. I do not know how much of the base fare goes towards the officers, food, entertainment and such, so do the same with the wages for your service employees. Then allow me to tip and reward good service.

 

I don't know why you are picking on NCL when every mainstream line pays their crew through service charges or tips, so this is an industry standard- and it's really not that different than in the service industry in the US where your server receives $2 something an hour and the rest of his/her compensation comes from the tip that you leave (there are exceptions to that because of state law). It may or may not be a perfect system but then what system ever is?

 

(And how many people would tip if the crew received a salary? Fewer than you think- I can't begin to recount the number of people on CCL that have said "I do not tip salaried workers" and remove the $2 per day portion of the tip set aside for alternative services.)

[njhorseman]

You've misread something, somewhere. The crew is compensated by a mix of "salary and incentives".

 

Not incentives like a monthly party....that's a burden carried by the company to maintain morale.

 

Rather:

 

Salary: a fixed monthly base amount paid by the company from its general revenues.

 

Incentives: a proportional share in a fluctuating pool - generated by the remaining $12/day DSC which have not been withdrawn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

I've been told that the entire $12 doesn't end up in paychecks, and if you read post #123, I'm not the only one who has that impression based on what they were told on board :

 

"Maybe the difference is going towards their incentive program?

 

I remember at one of the Q&A on board they mentioned that their incentive program gives the crew 'parties' monthly as well as other things that I just can't remember."

 

In any event, that particular observation isn't really relevant to the rest of my post, which was my main point and which you chose not to comment on. Whether it all goes into paychecks or some goes into non-cash incentives doesn't change the example I gave one iota.

Edited April 7, 2014 by njhorseman

[smeyer418]

I've been told that the entire $12 doesn't end up in paychecks, and if you read post #123, I'm not the only one who has that impression based on what they were told on board :

 

"Maybe the difference is going towards their incentive program?

 

I remember at one of the Q&A on board they mentioned that their incentive program gives the crew 'parties' monthly as well as other things that I just can't remember."

 

In any event, that particular observation isn't really relevant to the rest of my post, which was my main point and which you chose not to comment on. Whether it all goes into paychecks or some goes into non-cash incentives doesn't change the example I gave one iota.

 

some of this is the difference between the POA and the non-US flagged ships. On the POA it goes into salary and other incentives including time off and other things. But on the POA if you tip directly in cash they are NOT allowed to ask that it be turned in. Hawaian Law prohibits the mandatory sharing of cash tips.

[chengkp75]

some of this is the difference between the POA and the non-US flagged ships. On the POA it goes into salary and other incentives including time off and other things. But on the POA if you tip directly in cash they are NOT allowed to ask that it be turned in. Hawaian Law prohibits the mandatory sharing of cash tips.

 

I believe there is also some misunderstanding of the "incentives" wording. I know that NCL does not publish (AFAIK) the exact breakdown of the DSC, but I do remember that they were about the only line that mentioned that a portion (less than $1 per day) went to crew "welfare" which is parties, updating the crew lounges, gyms, additional internet computers, things like that.

[Inuvikcouple]

Eliminate the crew, well all those that do not have to steer or run the engines. Make everything else self serve, kind of like being at home except not as many TV options. With all the service and support staff gone the cost of cruising could be reduced by....hmmm.... lets just make a number up, let's say 40% and no tips or service fees would have to be charged. Wouldn't that be a win win situation?

 

Dave

[Tutankhamen]

I don't know why you are picking on NCL when every mainstream line pays their crew through service charges or tips, so this is an industry standard-

 

This is a NCL forum last I checked. Yes, all the mainstream lines use this deceptive billing system.

 

and it's really not that different than in the service industry in the US where your server receives $2 something an hour and the rest of his/her compensation comes from the tip that you leave (there are exceptions to that because of state law).

 

Not the same, by a long shot. Amercian workers are guaranteed at the least minimum wage. If they do not make more the minimum wage in tips, the employer is REQUIRED to make up the difference. Some higher end restaurants even guarantee a much higher hourly rate then minimum wage.

 

It may or may not be a perfect system but then what system ever is?

 

I never settle for that line of thinking. Strive for the best.

 

And how many people would tip if the crew received a salary? Fewer than you think- I can't begin to recount the number of people on CCL that have said "I do not tip salaried workers" and remove the $2 per day portion of the tip set aside for alternative services.)

 

We are back to discussing the "removing" tips? That would not be an option under my suggested compensation plan, mirrored after just about every other industry standards. Pay your employees. Charge consumers appropriately to cover the wages. Allow customers to reward service industry workers for excellent service. This would help to bring back the amazing service provided on ships back in the day.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Tutankhamen

[cruisinsly]

I would rather pay the 12bucks than to pay what it costs to do a DCL trip. You could almost do an all inclusive for the price if a Disney. IMHO

 

 

Me too!

[nona0541]

I really wish everyone would stop "carping" about the service charge. If $12 a day is too much for you then you need to do something other than cruise. This is an old and very stale subject. Let's all put it to rest. jmho!

[Tutankhamen]

I really wish everyone would stop "carping" about the service charge. If $12 a day is too much for you then you need to do something other than cruise. This is an old and very stale subject. Let's all put it to rest. jmho!

 

Not sure if you are reading another thread, but I really haven't read a post where anyone wrote "$12 a day is to much" for them.

[ShannonSC2]

I know when we were on the Pearl last year we had amazing service. We had 2 cabins & we booked our cabin a week before our cruise. When we arrived they knew our name, greeted us everyday by our name & worked from sun to sun down. They were amazing. In fact I tipped them extra for their hard work. Our cabins were so clean, trash emptied every day & night and ice always fresh in the bucket. Everyone on the Pearl were amazing & went the extra mile for everyone! :) So I didn't mind paying the $12 service charge! :)

 

We were on the Carnival & asked to have our service charges removed because we didn't get good service at all & never a cleaned room.

[smeyer418]

This is a NCL forum last I checked. Yes, all the mainstream lines use this deceptive billing system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I never settle for that line of thinking. Strive for the best.

 

 

 

We are back to discussing the "removing" tips? That would not be an option under my suggested compensation plan, mirrored after just about every other industry standards. Pay your employees. Charge consumers appropriately to cover the wages. Allow customers to reward service industry workers for excellent service. This would help to bring back the amazing service provided on ships back in the day.

 

you know the current system works reasonably well. Do you like paying more for the same thing? its like the item normally cost $1.50 but is on special three for five bucks you better stock up..

 

Do you want to pay more for them putting into the fare? You can expect the home office to add some overhead and profit so that no way will the $12 when added to the fare cost only $12..it just doesn't work that way.

 

Unless all the mass market cruise lines do it at the same time one will try to outsell the others with its low fares, not to mention that it is an anti-trust violation if they agree to do it all together...although they can like the airlines play follow the leader..so...

unless you like to cut off your nose to spite your face, if the $12 doesn't bother you that much leave it alone. imo.

[don't-use-real-name]

The argument that is not going away too soon !

 

Let's see - you pay $12.00 a day DSC and it covers tipping and gratuities every

where on the ship except your concierge butler and the restaurant maître d -

so what could be so wrong with that and if you NO like you can reduce the

DSC appropriately.

It sounds so simple that what could possibly go wrong ?

If you feel that that someone needs monetary consideration over and above

the standard provided by NCL well nothing prevents you from leaving that

compensation !

You feel an individual needs to be rebuked for inadequate service well the

system provides for that just talk to the folks at Guest Services. Please don't

do this on the last day of the voyage whether your cause/complaint is just or not !

If you wait to the last day you and NCL both come out as losers.

If you contact Guest Services on the last day there is not much that can be

done to correct the issue.

If you contact GS shortly after the sleight there is a window to work with to make it right.

It is not right to hold the entire crew hostage because of the one cruise person

not performing up to your expectations. So work out an arrangement with GS !

 

I still feel I would like to see the DSC included with the cruise fare !

Since it is condensing the entire bill into one flat rate with gratuities included

one would expect a zero balance to walk off the ship at the end of the voyage.

Extra tipping and gratuities shore excursions gift shop and duty free purchases

specialty dining beverages soft and alcoholic ground transfers are all optional.

Casinos omitted would not apply in any event

 

The only plus I see is if you cancel out on your cruise the DSC if separate from

the fare would be fully refundable. If inclusive then a partial of full refund

would be in order. But if travel insurance is bought the issue is mute either

way.

I like the idea of doing a simple walk-off at the end of the voyage owing nothing !

Edited April 8, 2014 by don't-use-real-name

[GuitarGuyFH]

Wow y'all are STILL going at it over this. LOL!

[Zackster]

1. I'm surprised you don't think your opinions matter to a multinational. I've contributed well over $200,000 to their coffers, and have the actuarial likelihood of contributing far more than that in the future (based on fares, upgrades, purchases, casino play, etc.)

 

2. Weren't you just banging a drum for inclusion of the $12/day? If you'd be in shock & awe if the multinational listened to you, why express support for something which doesn't exist - so vehemently?

 

3. You misunderstood what I said. I said that for those who reduce the $12/day, and don't tip the exact same amount (or more) directly - which gets put back into the pool - the crew receive less money. Less money = harder to attract & retain good crew. That leads to poor service ratings, and a vicious cycle. Over time the cruiseline discounts to attract passengers, doesn't make enough to profit, and flounders.

 

And then I'll have lost access to my line of choice - because of somebody else's actions.

 

Separately, Tut asked why, if the system works so well, are there so many heated arguments about it? That's simple....because of people like Tut who want to change it.

 

If people stopped coming in & trying to advocate for changing it - there would be no heated arguments.

 

Everybody would pay their Service Charge & move along, happy on the production line.

.

 

1. Not trying to insult you, but having contributed over $200,000 to NCL, what have they done to reward you? You've got what, Latitude Platinum? Complimentary one bag of laundry? Complimentary sparkling wine, not champagne??? :D

 

If your opinions mattered to a multinational you wouldn't need to post here ... on an internet forum. Do I need to list the number of multinational corporate bankruptcies that have occurred since you started cruising? If they all listened to their customers they'd still be around.

 

2. I'm posting here in response to a question from the OP, remember that guy :eek: I'm posting to ensure others like the OP know that different cruise lines call it Discretionary Service Charge and can be removed while other lines have made it a Service Charge which can't.

 

3. As for the $12/day I've said my piece. NCL and other lines should include all fees and include at time of booking/payment. They don't because the higher cost would drive away a certain group of customers - yes, the customers you people don't like who are going to take advantage of the option to reverse the DSC. But NCL needs them!

 

NCL should just make all their DSC documents on various worldwide websites consistent with the fact that you can not reverse the DSC unless the sky was falling. Until that happens I'm going to happily remind everyone of their option to reverse the DSC and not judge them on why - whether they find it expensive or whether they want the staff to earn their tips, etc.

 

My first cruise with NCL is coming up. I'm more loyal to Princess - at least with Princess Captain's Circle I get unlimited free laundry and lots of free internet time. Didn't know until I joined this lovely chat that NCL was the line that started the Daily Service Charge.

[Zackster]

Us cruisers who book from Australia pay more for each cruise & in the case of a cruise I am booked on (another line but one who also has similar service charge) they are offering a special for all bookings, of a free drinks package or so many$ OBC. When I enquired about these special offers I was advised 'no, they're not available if you booked from Australia. So as we already pay more for our cruise I assume service charge has been factored in.

 

Gidday!

 

Same thing happens with Australians and Europeans I've talked to who book with Princess - always pay more and can't access the specials.

 

Last year our Princess ship even delivered a letter to Aussie passport holders advising them that the custom onboard the ship is to tip! Princess allows you to reverse the automatic tipping so they were hoping to convince non-US/Canada passport holders to remain in the tipping pool.

[sparks1093]

This is a NCL forum last I checked. Yes, all the mainstream lines use this deceptive billing system.

 

 

 

Not the same, by a long shot. Amercian workers are guaranteed at the least minimum wage. If they do not make more the minimum wage in tips, the employer is REQUIRED to make up the difference. Some higher end restaurants even guarantee a much higher hourly rate then minimum wage.

 

 

 

I never settle for that line of thinking. Strive for the best.

 

 

 

We are back to discussing the "removing" tips? That would not be an option under my suggested compensation plan, mirrored after just about every other industry standards. Pay your employees. Charge consumers appropriately to cover the wages. Allow customers to reward service industry workers for excellent service. This would help to bring back the amazing service provided on ships back in the day.

 

It's only deceptive if they are trying to hide something. Since all of the mainstream lines use essentially the same system then it must work for the companies and for the employees. Crew on board the Pride of America are covered by US labor law and look at how expensive those cruises are (and yes, I do realize that not all of that cost is related to crew wages).

 

The Spirit in Australia includes the service charge in the fare and I have seen many posts about how much more those cruises are (haven't priced them personally so just going by what I read). I do understand also that land based tipped workers are different, but the cruise ship environment itself is also different, any analogy is bound to be deficient as a result.

 

And I mentioned the whole CCL thing to demonstrate to you that your comments regarding passengers rewarding service industry workers when they receive a full salary may be off the mark. Yes, some might tip them if they were to receive a full salary but my guess is that the vast majority wouldn't.

 

At the end of the day it works for the cruise companies and it works for the crew, as long as that continues to be the case we are unlikely to see any significant changes industry wide in the present practices.

[kylenyc]

Wow y'all are STILL going at it over this. LOL!

Meh... Slackers. It should be 20 pages by now. :p

Edited April 8, 2014 by kylenyc

[NH Cruisers]

FYI

 

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101549522?__source=xfinity|mod&par=xfinity

 

Californians and upstate NY'rs are cheapos when it comes to tipping!:cool:

[Tutankhamen]

Do you like paying more for the same thing?

 

No, my opinion is that the decline in service is the result of the automatic tipping system.

 

 

Do you want to pay more for them putting into the fare? You can expect the home office to add some overhead and profit so that no way will the $12 when added to the fare cost only $12..it just doesn't work that way.

 

So the home office will not raise the fare to increase profits, but if they add $12 a day to include the wages of their service workers they are all of a sudden going to raise fares even more to increase profits?

 

unless you like to cut off your nose to spite your face, if the $12 doesn't bother you that much leave it alone. imo.

 

My opinion is the decline in service, the miserable staff I have seen time to time as of late, is a direct result of automatic tips/service fees.

[Tutankhamen]

It's only deceptive if they are trying to hide something.

 

It not being added at the time of booking is deceptive. Port charges are added at time of booking. They are not added later.

 

One could go on to a booking engine, book the cruise. And not realize that there is still an expectation to pay the $168.00 "service fee". That could be as much as 15% more then the amount they paid before stepping on the ship. The clientele the cruise lines are actively attracting, are more then likely unable to comfortably afford the charge. They then want to remove the charge. They then do not tip anything above the charge.

 

I will concur that my system may not work with the current clientele the cruise lines have sailing on their ships. Not all the lines anyway. It would cause the cruise lines to raise their rates. Joe six pack may not be willing or able to pay the base fare when the service fee is added. If a cruise line is innovative, which I believe NCL is, and offers somethings that the other lines do not offer, like NCL, then the $10-$12 a day added to base fare should not affect their bookings, especially when the seasoned cruiser knows the service charge is paid on the front end, rather then the back end making it just a push. Also, by pricing out the Joe Six packs, perhaps the cruise atmosphere may be a bit more refined and thus attracting customers that are not into the stuffy atmosphere of the high-end lines, but also not into the atmosphere where you frequently see toothless guy, in a wife beater-T stained with salsa drippings, yelling profanity, with beer in hand, soaking in hot tub for hours on end, with a half dozen kids running around with plates filled with ice-cream being dumped all over the loungers. This is the very guy i stood behind the last night at GS while he removed the "service charge". I waited close to an hour hearing people over and over tell their story why GS should remove the "service charge". All I wanted was to have a charge removed that was not mine.

 

Flame away for the last part of my post.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Tutankhamen

[smeyer418]

No, my opinion is that the decline in service is the result of the automatic tipping system.

 

 

 

 

So the home office will not raise the fare to increase profits, but if they add $12 a day to include the wages of their service workers they are all of a sudden going to raise fares even more to increase profits?

 

 

 

My opinion is the decline in service, the miserable staff I have seen time to time as of late, is a direct result of automatic tips/service fees.

 

 

so Tut how is putting in the fare different from a DSC? so what you are advocating is doing away with a opt out DSC? that's what do now. You are aware when it was opt in 40% of those who didn't opt in left less or nothing at all even when they self reported no service issue?

 

The decline in service, if true, has more to do with lack of supervision and general decline in employee morale and lower staffing levels, if true.

[SteveH2508]

No, my opinion is that the decline in service is the result of the automatic tipping system.

 

<snip>

 

My opinion is the decline in service, the miserable staff I have seen time to time as of late, is a direct result of automatic tips/service fees.

 

I would suggest that a much bigger factor in the alleged decline in service would be the cost cutting by the cruise lines i.e. more cabins to be serviced per steward (with less assistants); more tables to be served per waiter; less bar staff and waiters per bar.

Edited April 8, 2014 by SteveH2508

[sparks1093]

It not being added at the time of booking is deceptive. Port charges are added at time of booking. They are not added later.

 

One could go on to a booking engine, book the cruise. And not realize that there is still an expectation to pay the $168.00 "service fee". That could be as much as 15% more then the amount they paid before stepping on the ship. The clientele the cruise lines are actively attracting, are more then likely unable to comfortably afford the charge. They then want to remove the charge. They then do not tip anything above the charge.

 

I will concur that my system may not work with the current clientele the cruise lines have sailing on their ships. Not all the lines anyway. It would cause the cruise lines to raise their rates. Joe six pack may not be willing or able to pay the base fare when the service fee is added. If a cruise line is innovative, which I believe NCL is, and offers somethings that the other lines do not offer, like NCL, then the $10-$12 a day added to base fare should not affect their bookings, especially when the seasoned cruiser knows the service charge is paid on the front end, rather then the back end making it just a push. Also, by pricing out the Joe Six packs, perhaps the cruise atmosphere may be a bit more refined and thus attracting customers that are not into the stuffy atmosphere of the high-end lines, but also not into the atmosphere where you frequently see toothless guy, in a wife beater-T stained with salsa drippings, yelling profanity, with beer in hand, soaking in hot tub for hours on end, with a half dozen kids running around with plates filled with ice-cream being dumped all over the loungers.

 

Flame away for the last part of my post.

 

As for the last part of your post I thought you wanted to keep CCL out of the conversation:cool:. The information is there for anyone that wants to click on the FAQ and educate themselves and yes, there are some people that will think that a cruise line fare is an "all inclusive" price (and are probably shocked that alcohol is not included either;)), but that argument only works once for each cruiser. Everyone has a choice in cruising- you can pay the higher prices of other lines to avoid the so called "Joe Six pack" or you can pay a lesser fare and endure them. But a change in the industry standard is not likely to come from the customer, it's more likely to come from the crews if and when they become dissatisfied enough with the status quo, which I don't see happening any time soon.

 

And as for your statement that service has declined because of the auto tipping system how much further will it decline when it's part of their wages and passengers have no input at all?

[Crusin6]

I would suggest that a much bigger factor in the alleged decline in service would be the cost cutting by the cruise lines i.e. more cabins to be serviced per steward (with less assistants); more tables to be served per waiter; less bar staff and waiters per bar.

 

It is actually a very stupid decision to cut bar staff.