Muster drill question... Please dont flame me!

[navybankerteacher]

So at what point can the crew decide to launch a boat even if some people assigned to it are missing? At what point do they decide to evacuate the 95% of the assigned people who are already there and ready to leave, instead of waiting for the 5% they can't find? At what point do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? (Yes, I'm a sci-fi geek.)

 

Hopefully the crews manning the lifeboat stations will wait for, and promptly respond to, instruction from the bridge as to when to commence lowering boats. This, of course, is predicated upon the assumption that the captain has not already departed the ship, as in two recent cases. I would imagine that once an informed decision has been taken that the situation requires the lowering of boats, the boats would be lowered - hopefully largely filled. But given human nature, I cannot imagine any case in which 100% of passengers would find their way to their stations - hopefully all would find space in boats, and not have to climb into rafts. -- but even in a leisurely and well-managed evacuation I would wager that at least some would wind up in other boats.

[rene194215]

Ok everyone... this question was not posted to get people to argue... or completely change the original question. Please just let it be.

 

Muster is very important whether on a large midsize or small ship. That's my opinion and I am sticking to it,,,,,

[chengkp75]

Hopefully the crews manning the lifeboat stations will wait for, and promptly respond to, instruction from the bridge as to when to commence lowering boats. This, of course, is predicated upon the assumption that the captain has not already departed the ship, as in two recent cases. I would imagine that once an informed decision has been taken that the situation requires the lowering of boats, the boats would be lowered - hopefully largely filled. But given human nature, I cannot imagine any case in which 100% of passengers would find their way to their stations - hopefully all would find space in boats, and not have to climb into rafts. -- but even in a leisurely and well-managed evacuation I would wager that at least some would wind up in other boats.

 

I know I get flamed every time over this, because of the failures of two Captains recently, but this is how it should work.

 

There are three phases to an abandonment. The first is the muster. This can and should be done even when there is no immediate danger of sinking or fire enveloping the ship. The ship progresses from the "code" emergency, to the point where the on-scene commander advises the Captain that the situation is deteriorating to the point where passenger accountability is advised. At that point, the Captain can decide to sound the general alarm (which is not the abandon ship signal, just the general emergency signal, more than six short followed by one long) and get the passengers to muster for accountability. At this point, the boats are prepped by the crew, and lowered to the embarkation deck.

 

Once the muster is complete, or the number of missing is known, the Captain can decide whether to load the boats. This can come quickly after the muster is commenced, significantly later, or not at all, depending on how the emergency progresses. Those ships that scan cards can scan cards from people not assigned to the particular boat, and therefore accountability is maintained, if they decide that there is room on the boat (whether from missing pax or pax count being below maximum. The ships that use the paper checklist can do the same. I've heard that some ships don't check pax off by cabin, just head count, and I don't see that as truly effective in maintaining accountability, but it is allowed.

 

Finally, just because the Captain has ordered the boats loaded, he may still hold off on launching the boats, especially if there are missing pax. The ride down, once the boat is loaded, is about 30 seconds, the coxswain starts the engine, releases the falls, and the boat is away in under a minute, and the next boat follows.

 

Boats are not launched by the crew in the boat. There will be a deck officer or two assigned to each side of the ship, who will be in communication with the bridge, and whistle commands are also used to signal when to lower boats. These officers will be the ones directing late arrivals to fill in boats.

 

After all the boats are away, the area is clear for deploying the liferafts, and the Captain (who may decide to keep the crew onboard to continue fighting the emergency) will signal abandon ship, and the crew will report to their liferaft stations. There are excess liferafts onboard so that in total, between boats (one seat for every passenger up to max pax capacity) and rafts, there is 125% capacity.

[wwcruisers]

Chengkp75 -- You'll get no flaming from me. I like to know the details of how things like this are supposed to work. Thanks for taking the time to explain the whole process to us! :cool:

[Mytime2014]

Ok everyone... this question was not posted to get people to argue... or completely change the original question. Please just let it be.

 

Muster is very important whether on a large midsize or small ship. That's my opinion and I am sticking to it,,,,,

 

Oh honey - nothing people like better than to argue - they already forgot the original question/poster!!!! reminiscent of a high school pi$$ing contest...but sometimes fun to watch if you have popcorn and/or alcohol

[BeagleOne]

Thanks for the info, chengkp! Appreciate it!

[frawnsay]

Ithis is how it should work.

 

The initial question intrigued me.

 

The impending debate entertained me.

 

THIS educated me.

 

THANK YOU, chengkp75!:D

[boogs]

While most of your statements are correct, some are not, and the link you provide bears this out. The 30 minutes is for embarking and launching all boats, after the muster is completed. For any ship with more than 3 vertical fire zones, which includes nearly every cruise ship afloat, the total evacuation time allowed is 80 minutes. Just trying to keep the fight fair. :D

 

Thanks for the clarification. I want to provide accurate information, not biased opinions as some here seem to do. If what I post needs a correction, I am always grateful when someone who knows what he is talking about - as does chengkp75 - sets me straight. It does a disservice to everyone when inaccurate information is allowed to stand with out challenge - even if it was me that posted it. :)

 

Thanks again.

Edited May 15, 2014 by boogs

[fortinweb]

Ok everyone... this question was not posted to get people to argue... or completely change the original question. Please just let it be.

 

Muster is very important whether on a large midsize or small ship. That's my opinion and I am sticking to it,,,,,

 

To be honest, I am finding the ensuing discussion, especially the last dozen or so posts with real information, to be much more interesting than the answers to your original question. No offense intended. I do want to say "thanks" to you for opening this tread as I have learned some facts that are quite interesting, and in many ways, very educational.

[frecgenswl82]

To be honest, I am finding the ensuing discussion, especially the last dozen or so posts with real information, to be much more interesting than the answers to your original question. No offense intended. I do want to say "thanks" to you for opening this tread as I have learned some facts that are quite interesting, and in many ways, very educational.

 

I have to agree with the last few posters above me. I have found out information that could possibly help me one day. Thanks to the OP for the question. Susan

[dsrdsrdsr]

I know I get flamed every time over this, because of the failures of two Captains recently, but this is how it should work.

 

There are three phases to an abandonment. The first is the muster. This can and should be done even when there is no immediate danger of sinking or fire enveloping the ship. The ship progresses from the "code" emergency, to the point where the on-scene commander advises the Captain that the situation is deteriorating to the point where passenger accountability is advised. At that point, the Captain can decide to sound the general alarm (which is not the abandon ship signal, just the general emergency signal, more than six short followed by one long) and get the passengers to muster for accountability. At this point, the boats are prepped by the crew, and lowered to the embarkation deck.

 

Once the muster is complete, or the number of missing is known, the Captain can decide whether to load the boats. This can come quickly after the muster is commenced, significantly later, or not at all, depending on how the emergency progresses. Those ships that scan cards can scan cards from people not assigned to the particular boat, and therefore accountability is maintained, if they decide that there is room on the boat (whether from missing pax or pax count being below maximum. The ships that use the paper checklist can do the same. I've heard that some ships don't check pax off by cabin, just head count, and I don't see that as truly effective in maintaining accountability, but it is allowed.

 

Finally, just because the Captain has ordered the boats loaded, he may still hold off on launching the boats, especially if there are missing pax. The ride down, once the boat is loaded, is about 30 seconds, the coxswain starts the engine, releases the falls, and the boat is away in under a minute, and the next boat follows.

 

Boats are not launched by the crew in the boat. There will be a deck officer or two assigned to each side of the ship, who will be in communication with the bridge, and whistle commands are also used to signal when to lower boats. These officers will be the ones directing late arrivals to fill in boats.

 

After all the boats are away, the area is clear for deploying the liferafts, and the Captain (who may decide to keep the crew onboard to continue fighting the emergency) will signal abandon ship, and the crew will report to their liferaft stations. There are excess liferafts onboard so that in total, between boats (one seat for every passenger up to max pax capacity) and rafts, there is 125% capacity.

Not flaming, just curious:

 

1. If the first stage (muster) happens before the general alarm is sounded, then who is mustering? Is it just a way of saying the crew are getting in position?

 

2. The ships that scan cards on each lifeboat - what happens to the passengers, possibly lots of them, who haven't got a card with them? A night-time emergency especially will see lots of passengers forget to pick up their card.

 

3. It would seem to me that (apart from searching a cabin) it would be hard to look for a particular person. Parts of the ship may be inaccessible; the crew may have come across a body with no ID; the card, paper, or combined paper-and-scan system, may be inaccurate. Wouldn't they just search the specific cabin, plus a general search of the ship, and then go? Or would they really keep searching till every name and number was found?

[ducklite]

I have been on both large and small ships, and can assure you that the stairs are the same width in both.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having reviewed deck plans which show relative scale, I am virtually certain that you are incorrect in stating that the stairs on HAL Vista Class (among other "mass" ships) are not any wider than those on Windstar, or comparable yacht-like small vessels.

 

 

 

I realize that I am demonstrating affrontery in daring to challenge the opinion of one whose customers in the maritime industry have advised about how cruise terminal porters are compensated ...one who has gone through snake infested swamps to effect heroic rescue ... one who has travelled, well dressed, through Europe for weeks with just a carry-on ...one who has left the masses to travel only in rarefied elegance ... but that's just me. I tend to gag at pomposity.

 

 

I haven't sailed on HAL, but have sailed in RCCL and DCL, and that's what I base my statement in. Have you even sailed on a small ship? Given your assumptions, I tend to doubt it. Highly.

[ducklite]

Hopefully the crews manning the lifeboat stations will wait for, and promptly respond to, instruction from the bridge as to when to commence lowering boats. This, of course, is predicated upon the assumption that the captain has not already departed the ship, as in two recent cases. I would imagine that once an informed decision has been taken that the situation requires the lowering of boats, the boats would be lowered - hopefully largely filled. But given human nature, I cannot imagine any case in which 100% of passengers would find their way to their stations - hopefully all would find space in boats, and not have to climb into rafts. -- but even in a leisurely and well-managed evacuation I would wager that at least some would wind up in other boats.

 

 

I would agree with you. Additionally some might be trapped below deck and not rescueable due to damage caused by a fire, explosion, or collision, while others might be stranded due to mobility related issues and other physical,issues making moving them impossible. Consider a 400 pound person who can't walk seven floors away from the life boats on a seriously listing ship. At that point they need to launch the lifeboats and save the ones they can. It might sound heartless, but it would be better to lose one than an entire lifeboats worth of people who could have been saved but perished because one person couldn't get to the station.

[sail7seas]

To be honest, I am finding the ensuing discussion, especially the last dozen or so posts with real information, to be much more interesting than the answers to your original question. No offense intended. I do want to say "thanks" to you for opening this tread as I have learned some facts that are quite interesting, and in many ways, very educational.

 

 

I agree.

We have learned some interesting information and OP got this conversation started.

 

[EdmPair]

And now for some lock and building technology but as I know building on land it may or may not be comparable to ships. My 3 cents.

 

First a note about the hotel locks you see on cruise ships. Many model support a fast lockout card which is usually RED. Security could use it to keep a passenger out of their cabin. In an emergency, each steward could be given one to check a room, clear it and then use the RED card. I would be willing to bet they would also be given a grease pencil or such and would mark the door at the same time. All crew would then know the cabin was now verified empty. (If you have had any contact with the Deaf, you should know not to assume everybody hears even the load horns.)

 

The next note is about emergency stairs. What you see on a ship is often NOT an emergency stair, it is just a stair. On this, I am speaking just from sailing on two ships and seeing photos and plans of others. One was the Grand Princess and it had nice big wide stairs with carpet which opened into nice lobbies sometimes with elevators. If you work the trades, you know this can never be a fire stair as it is not contained and the carpet is fuel.

 

Fire stairs have doors which seal and are boring steel or concrete. In Canadian building codes there are numbers for width but let me explain the idea in plan. The maximum width of a stair is basically 3 people. Two hold onto either rail and an active able bodied person could move down the centre OR assist another person holding the rail. No fire stair can much wider. Every step must be the same width and depth as you MAY have to move in darkness or low light. So any circular stair is never a fire stair. You notice I said boring and sealed. I was on a HAL ship with many stairs used by the staff which were fire stairs. I know what to look for and there are many stairs never used by the guest until an emergency. This is my way of saying, don't count the stairs you see on the travel booking plans.

 

As a last note, I have to say the tone of some of this was not very nice. I figure information goes a long way toward good decisions BUT as other have pointed out it hardly predicts well how people will behave in a crisis. I want to get as much information as I can and hope I never need it.

 

Later,

M

[Minz]

Whilst being engaged with the unexpected banter on this thread, I have come away with the understanding of how critical the muster is. I shall ensure that my young daughter is super practiced on finding our muster station from key parts of our ship alone. Thank you to ALL contributors (debaters and all) for stressing the importance of the muster and need for a calm head.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[chengkp75]

Not flaming, just curious:

 

1. If the first stage (muster) happens before the general alarm is sounded, then who is mustering? Is it just a way of saying the crew are getting in position?Sorry, that wasn't as clear as it should have been. Let's say there is a fire onboard. The person finding it will call the bridge and notify the officer of the watch. He/she will announce a "code bravo", at which time the crew who have firefighting responsibilities (fire teams, quick response team, security teams, medical teams, about 60-80 in total) will respond and report to the on-scene commander at a designated location, and be directed to their duties in fighting the fire. If the fire can be easily controlled, nothing further will happen for the remainder of the crew or the passengers. If the on-scene decides that things are getting to the point where both passenger and crew accountability would be advisable (fire spreading to cabin areas), at that point, he/she will advise the Captain, who will decide whether to sound the alarm and start the muster. Many, many shipboard emergencies, including fires, are handled at the "code" stage, and never escalate to sounding the general alarm.

 

2. The ships that scan cards on each lifeboat - what happens to the passengers, possibly lots of them, who haven't got a card with them? A night-time emergency especially will see lots of passengers forget to pick up their card.I can't say for sure, as I've never worked with the scanners (only the old school checklists), but I assume there is a keypad where cabin numbers can be input.

 

3. It would seem to me that (apart from searching a cabin) it would be hard to look for a particular person. Parts of the ship may be inaccessible; the crew may have come across a body with no ID; the card, paper, or combined paper-and-scan system, may be inaccurate. Wouldn't they just search the specific cabin, plus a general search of the ship, and then go? Or would they really keep searching till every name and number was found?

 

With a crew size of say 900+, only 60 or so are assigned to actually dealing with the emergency, as stated above, and another 80-100 assigned to conduct the muster, prep the boats and be the boat crews. This leaves the vast majority assigned to sweeping the ship. Every cabin and every public space, outside of the "hot zone" will be searched while the muster is being taken. The emergency teams are tasked with searches within the designated "hot zone" (areas immediately surrounding the fire, where it is not safe for unequipped crew to be). The most important factor is of course the total head count. The number is important. The actual cabin assignment or pax/crew name is secondary, but also important. If we know that the people in cabin 1234 have not reported to muster, the HD can check with the deck leader to see if that cabin has been checked, or will notify the on-scene that those people may be in the hot zone. The cabin assignment check is used as a starting place to check for missing. It also helps when recovering survivors to know exactly who is there and who is missing. Many people will be in shock, and if they've been in the boats for any time at all, they will most likely be unresponsive to questioning for several hours. But if we can account for all souls, living or dead, that is the most important factor for the Captain in deciding when to load the boats.

[chengkp75]

And now for some lock and building technology but as I know building on land it may or may not be comparable to ships. My 3 cents.

 

First a note about the hotel locks you see on cruise ships. Many model support a fast lockout card which is usually RED. Security could use it to keep a passenger out of their cabin. In an emergency, each steward could be given one to check a room, clear it and then use the RED card. I would be willing to bet they would also be given a grease pencil or such and would mark the door at the same time. All crew would then know the cabin was now verified empty. (If you have had any contact with the Deaf, you should know not to assume everybody hears even the load horns.)In my experience, there isn't a "lockout" card as you describe. The evacuation team (and this is not limited to security, they are mainly cabin stewards, as this takes up about 10-15 crew per deck) are given a set of master keycards to open the cabin doors, check the cabin, and then place a "place holder" card in the lock. This is oversized, and either has a color code on it, or the words "empty" on the part that sticks up out of the lock.

 

The next note is about emergency stairs. What you see on a ship is often NOT an emergency stair, it is just a stair. On this, I am speaking just from sailing on two ships and seeing photos and plans of others. One was the Grand Princess and it had nice big wide stairs with carpet which opened into nice lobbies sometimes with elevators. If you work the trades, you know this can never be a fire stair as it is not contained and the carpet is fuel.

 

Fire stairs have doors which seal and are boring steel or concrete. In Canadian building codes there are numbers for width but let me explain the idea in plan. The maximum width of a stair is basically 3 people. Two hold onto either rail and an active able bodied person could move down the centre OR assist another person holding the rail. No fire stair can much wider. Every step must be the same width and depth as you MAY have to move in darkness or low light. So any circular stair is never a fire stair. You notice I said boring and sealed. I was on a HAL ship with many stairs used by the staff which were fire stairs. I know what to look for and there are many stairs never used by the guest until an emergency. This is my way of saying, don't count the stairs you see on the travel booking plans.Ships do not have "fire stairs" like buildings. All stairs, the passenger stairs and the crew stairs can be used in emergency, and the crew are trained to divert traffic from one to another as required. Generally, close to any passenger staircase, there is an accompanying crew staircase. I can't comment on whether the stairs are bigger on bigger ships, but I do know that the closer to the embarkation level the stair gets, it gets wider than upper decks or lower decks, as more people will be here. Stair size/quantity is determined by the number of people that need to get down them in a specified time. Ships, unlike buildings, are broken down into "vertical fire zones", where fire doors will close off sections of the ship, from lowest deck to highest deck (you've all seen the doors that stay open tucked in the passageways, and that are sometimes used to close off the cabin passageways on turn-around days, these are fire zone boundaries). Fire zones have separate A/C ducting, piping will have isolation valves, and all steel decks and bulkheads (not the sheet metal cabin walls, but the ship structure behind it) are rated A-60, meaning that it takes 60 minutes to burn through the fire zone boundary. Each fire zone can be isolated for power and ventilation, and if an elevator is located in a fire zone where a fire detector has gone off, it will automatically go to the mid-level deck and stop to act as a fire block in the "chimney" of the elevator shaft. The atriums and central malls of the larger ships have created special problems in fire fighting, but they have been met to standards acceptable to flag states, IMO, and class societies.

 

As a last note, I have to say the tone of some of this was not very nice. I figure information goes a long way toward good decisions BUT as other have pointed out it hardly predicts well how people will behave in a crisis. I want to get as much information as I can and hope I never need it.

 

Later,

M

 

I came to CC to try to post my experience in operating ships, especially cruise ships, and to defuse some misinformation and blame that I saw being broadcast in the wake of the Triumph fire. As Staff Chief Engineer with NCL, it was my emergency station to be the on-scene commander, in charge of the emergency teams responding to the emergencies, so I tend to be a bit caught up when I describe how things should be done. I, too, feel that knowledge is strength, and want the cruising public to understand the intricacies of these amazing vessels. I also feel that crew or passenger, you are ultimately responsible for your own safety, and knowledge and "muscle memory" (doing something so many times it becomes second nature) is what will allow you to aid the crew in saving your life. I try not to get into personal attacks, or get annoyed and "snarky" with posters (doesn't always work, but I try), and I find it disheartening and unproductive when discussions degenerate into name calling and finger pointing. The Concordia threads have over 2500 posts, and there are almost none that are personally vindictive (except towards Schettino), and provide enjoyable discussion and dissemination of facts.

 

Sorry, off my soapbox.

[ducklite]

And now for some lock and building technology but as I know building on land it may or may not be comparable to ships. My 3 cents.

 

First a note about the hotel locks you see on cruise ships. Many model support a fast lockout card which is usually RED. Security could use it to keep a passenger out of their cabin. In an emergency, each steward could be given one to check a room, clear it and then use the RED card. I would be willing to bet they would also be given a grease pencil or such and would mark the door at the same time. All crew would then know the cabin was now verified empty. (If you have had any contact with the Deaf, you should know not to assume everybody hears even the load horns.)

 

The next note is about emergency stairs. What you see on a ship is often NOT an emergency stair, it is just a stair. On this, I am speaking just from sailing on two ships and seeing photos and plans of others. One was the Grand Princess and it had nice big wide stairs with carpet which opened into nice lobbies sometimes with elevators. If you work the trades, you know this can never be a fire stair as it is not contained and the carpet is fuel.

 

Fire stairs have doors which seal and are boring steel or concrete. In Canadian building codes there are numbers for width but let me explain the idea in plan. The maximum width of a stair is basically 3 people. Two hold onto either rail and an active able bodied person could move down the centre OR assist another person holding the rail. No fire stair can much wider. Every step must be the same width and depth as you MAY have to move in darkness or low light. So any circular stair is never a fire stair. You notice I said boring and sealed. I was on a HAL ship with many stairs used by the staff which were fire stairs. I know what to look for and there are many stairs never used by the guest until an emergency. This is my way of saying, don't count the stairs you see on the travel booking plans.

 

As a last note, I have to say the tone of some of this was not very nice. I figure information goes a long way toward good decisions BUT as other have pointed out it hardly predicts well how people will behave in a crisis. I want to get as much information as I can and hope I never need it.

 

Later,

M

 

 

Valuable info, but it begs a new question. If the passengers aren't shown these fire stairs during a non-emergency, how many do you expect would find them in an emergency. I certainly wouldn't count on crew being there to guide me, and I suspect many if not most passengers would ignore the directions and head for the stairs they are familiar with.

[ducklite]

I came to CC to try to post my experience in operating ships, especially cruise ships, and to defuse some misinformation and blame that I saw being broadcast in the wake of the Triumph fire. As Staff Chief Engineer with NCL, it was my emergency station to be the on-scene commander, in charge of the emergency teams responding to the emergencies, so I tend to be a bit caught up when I describe how things should be done. I, too, feel that knowledge is strength, and want the cruising public to understand the intricacies of these amazing vessels. I also feel that crew or passenger, you are ultimately responsible for your own safety, and knowledge and "muscle memory" (doing something so many times it becomes second nature) is what will allow you to aid the crew in saving your life. I try not to get into personal attacks, or get annoyed and "snarky" with posters (doesn't always work, but I try), and I find it disheartening and unproductive when discussions degenerate into name calling and finger pointing. The Concordia threads have over 2500 posts, and there are almost none that are personally vindictive (except towards Schettino), and provide enjoyable discussion and dissemination of facts.

 

 

 

Sorry, off my soapbox.

 

 

I wish I could quite the section of your post I really want to, but on the iPad and can't figure out how, sorry. At any rate, you mentioned A60 steel, yet they are given 80 minutes to get everyone off once the call to do so goes out. Those numbers aren't reconciling with me, and that's exactly why I have grave concerns over the safety of the mega liners.

[chengkp75]

I wish I could quite the section of your post I really want to, but on the iPad and can't figure out how, sorry. At any rate, you mentioned A60 steel, yet they are given 80 minutes to get everyone off once the call to do so goes out. Those numbers aren't reconciling with me, and that's exactly why I have grave concerns over the safety of the mega liners.

 

Whether a large ship or small, nearly every cruise ship larger than some of the "adventure" cruises have more than 3 vertical fire zones, and therefore they all have the same 80 minute total evacuation time.

 

An A-60 fire bulkhead does not mean that in 60 minutes the next fire zone will be engulfed in flames. It means that the paint on the opposite side of the bulkhead will reach it's ignition temperature, and start to burn in a minimum of 60 minutes. Take note of the word minimum. A-60 rating is not given to steel, it is the structural fire insulation applied, and the method of sealing penetrations (electrical and piping) that insulates the steel, because we all know how well steel transmits heat. Even window glass can be rated as A-60, and this is required in some locations onboard ships.

 

While I have serious doubts about the ability to load the 350 person lifeboats in 10 minutes each (but it can be done sufficiently quickly none the less), I have no problem with the ability to get 6000 pax to their musters in time. Hey, they get the drunks and "deserters" to muster in less than 45 minutes, and that without a sense of urgency. Will there be problems in an emergency? Yes. Will the crew be able to respond effectively? Probably. Remember, they do this every week for their entire contract, in addition to the required crew drills, so the "muscle memory" is going to be there, far more than for passengers. I've done an average of 30 drills a year, for 39 years.

[ducklite]

Whether a large ship or small, nearly every cruise ship larger than some of the "adventure" cruises have more than 3 vertical fire zones, and therefore they all have the same 80 minute total evacuation time.

 

 

 

An A-60 fire bulkhead does not mean that in 60 minutes the next fire zone will be engulfed in flames. It means that the paint on the opposite side of the bulkhead will reach it's ignition temperature, and start to burn in a minimum of 60 minutes. Take note of the word minimum. A-60 rating is not given to steel, it is the structural fire insulation applied, and the method of sealing penetrations (electrical and piping) that insulates the steel, because we all know how well steel transmits heat. Even window glass can be rated as A-60, and this is required in some locations onboard ships.

 

 

 

While I have serious doubts about the ability to load the 350 person lifeboats in 10 minutes each (but it can be done sufficiently quickly none the less), I have no problem with the ability to get 6000 pax to their musters in time. Hey, they get the drunks and "deserters" to muster in less than 45 minutes, and that without a sense of urgency. Will there be problems in an emergency? Yes. Will the crew be able to respond effectively? Probably. Remember, they do this every week for their entire contract, in addition to the required crew drills, so the "muscle memory" is going to be there, far more than for passengers. I've done an average of 30 drills a year, for 39 years.

 

 

Thanks for the additional info. I guess my concerns lie with the families scattered all over the ship, people trying to fight their way upstream to find children, fights ensue, as you mentioned the drunks--which there seem to be a disproportionate number of on certain ships, and the general chaos with 8000 people in an emergency. Add in the potential for some exits to be unusable, the ship to begin listing, and corridors filling with toxic smoke and limiting visibility--have that happen as people are trying to escape from lower decks and beginning to panic. It is not a good outcome scenario.

 

The airlines have for years done routine tests to see how long it takes to evacuate a plane full of passengers. It was always orderly, polite, helpful. Until they tried going a different route--cold, hard cash to the "evacuees" who could get off in "x" seconds. Things suddenly changed as it became every man for himself and the rule book fell to the ground. Over half the people on the plane didn't get the cash. People climbed over seats, over each other, pushing and shoving. It was anything but orderly, polite, and helpful.

 

I would like to see ships test the same way. I would bet a weeks pay that the larger the ship, the fewer people who get the cash.

 

PS--the "adventure ships" usually only have 50-75 or so total souls, so as long as there are two staircases, one at either end of the ship, there should be no problem in getting everyone off in 10 minutes or so.

Edited May 16, 2014 by ducklite

[chengkp75]

Valuable info, but it begs a new question. If the passengers aren't shown these fire stairs during a non-emergency, how many do you expect would find them in an emergency. I certainly wouldn't count on crew being there to guide me, and I suspect many if not most passengers would ignore the directions and head for the stairs they are familiar with.

 

Again, disabuse yourself of the notion of "fire stairs". All staircases onboard ship are "fire stairs". Passenger staircases are designed to handle all required passenger traffic for an evacuation. Crew staircases are designed to more than handle crew traffic, and remember, the crew will not be mustering at their liferaft stations until all passengers are away from the ship. There are crew stationed at each deck in each staircase, both crew and passenger. If needed, the crew in the crew stairs can prop open the doors between the pax areas and the crew stairs (at every level), and folks will either see stairs or be directed to the visible stairs.

 

I don't understand why people don't believe that the maritime industry has progressed beyond the Titanic. SOLAS regulations require certain standards of construction of the vessels, not only lifesaving equipment. IMO and flag state have further requirements on safety construction. But the biggest factor in ship design is the class societies. These third party surveyors are insurance underwriters (think UL) that certify that the ship is safe to operate for a period (generally one year between surveys), and this is what the insurance clubs use to determine premiums to insure the ship. These class societies have books of rules for ship construction that are based on studies like the one posted earlier, where passenger behavior is studied within the structure of the ship. I have even seen these studies used to reconstruct the disaster of the Wilhem Gustloff in WWII where over 7000 people were overcrowded onboard, and lost their lives in the worst recorded loss of life at sea.

[ducklite]

Again, disabuse yourself of the notion of "fire stairs". All staircases onboard ship are "fire stairs". Passenger staircases are designed to handle all required passenger traffic for an evacuation. Crew staircases are designed to more than handle crew traffic, and remember, the crew will not be mustering at their liferaft stations until all passengers are away from the ship. There are crew stationed at each deck in each staircase, both crew and passenger. If needed, the crew in the crew stairs can prop open the doors between the pax areas and the crew stairs (at every level), and folks will either see stairs or be directed to the visible stairs.

 

 

 

I don't understand why people don't believe that the maritime industry has progressed beyond the Titanic. SOLAS regulations require certain standards of construction of the vessels, not only lifesaving equipment. IMO and flag state have further requirements on safety construction. But the biggest factor in ship design is the class societies. These third party surveyors are insurance underwriters (think UL) that certify that the ship is safe to operate for a period (generally one year between surveys), and this is what the insurance clubs use to determine premiums to insure the ship. These class societies have books of rules for ship construction that are based on studies like the one posted earlier, where passenger behavior is studied within the structure of the ship. I have even seen these studies used to reconstruct the disaster of the Wilhem Gustloff in WWII where over 7000 people were overcrowded onboard, and lost their lives in the worst recorded loss of life at sea.

 

 

I'm not arguing that it hasn't progressed (although given the two serious accidents with loss of life in the past 30 months, that could be debatable) but my point is that trying to squeeze that many people into just a couple of staircases and expecting things to remain orderly is just not logical. As the situation deteriorates, people get frustrated and panicked, the situation will become chaotic and once that happens, the best laid plans of Mice and Men...

[chengkp75]

Thanks for the additional info. I guess my concerns lie with the families scattered all over the ship, people trying to fight their way upstream to find children, fights ensue, as you mentioned the drunks--which there seem to be a disproportionate number of on certain ships, and the general chaos with 8000 people in an emergency. Add in the potential for some exits to be unusable, the ship to begin listing, and corridors filling with toxic smoke and limiting visibility--have that happen as people are trying to escape from lower decks and beginning to panic. It is not a good outcome scenario.This is why deck and engine officers are required to have "crowd and crisis management" training, and why many cruise lines send their senior hotel supervisors to this as well, so that you can have people who can spot trouble before it starts on scene. This also allows me to jump on my US flag soapbox, and let the cruising public know that the USCG requires far more documented and approved shoreside training, and more rigorous and more frequent onboard training than the foreign flag ships. It will never happen, but I can still push for all US flag cruise ships based in the US. :(

 

The airlines have for years done routine tests to see how long it takes to evacuate a plane full of passengers. It was always orderly, polite, helpful. Until they tried going a different route--cold, hard cash to the "evacuees" who could get off in "x" seconds. Things suddenly changed as it became every man for himself and the rule book fell to the ground. Over half the people on the plane didn't get the cash. People climbed over seats, over each other, pushing and shoving. It was anything but orderly, polite, and helpful.While useful, the monetary incentive creates a different atmosphere than a real life emergency. I have thought of having ships tested this way on a yearly basis, more to train the crew in handling the actual "crazies" than anything else, as I believe that the computer simulations today can accurately reflect human behavior based on historical data.

 

I would like to see ships test the same way. I would bet a weeks pay that the larger the ship, the fewer people who get the cash.

 

PS--the "adventure ships" usually only have 50-75 or so total souls, so as long as there are two staircases, one at either end of the ship, there should be no problem in getting everyone off in 10 minutes or so.

 

Yes, so ships like the Prinsendam and the Allure of the Seas are treated identically in the requirements for evacuation, so there has to be differences in their design to allow for the difference in human capacity.