Hal discriminates European cruisers

[cruising cockroach]

I'll have to tell my friends in Europe that their experiences are not real. . . I've had a few friends in the military who buy their BMWs or other "European" cars in Germany before coming back to the states because they are so much cheaper.

 

Here's another example with different engines:

 

Smallest-engine/model 5-series BMW sedan on the market: 528i. US list is US$49,750 with an 8-speed Steptronic transmission.

 

German list price for the same 528i is €48,250 which converts to USD 54,300 under my tax and currency exchange rates previous. Choosing a manual transmission in Germany (not available in the U.S.) will save you just €2,250 which is about US$2,350, so still more in Germany even with a manual transmission.

 

The cheapest and smallest engine/model in Germany is a 520i which is not sold in the U.S. List price for a manual? €40,900 which converted is USD $46,072 with the automatic adding another USD 2,350.

 

Sources: bmwusa.com and bmw.de

Edited August 17, 2014 by cruising cockroach

[POA1]

It goes the other way too. Look at cars. In America BMW, Mercedes, and even Volkswagon are all more expensive than they are in Europe. My friends, while stationed in Germany, found that Chevrolet was far more expensive there than in the United States.

 

You'd be surprised. A large Mercedes (S Class) is significantly more expensive in England than it is in the USA. If you take European delivery of a BMW or Mercedes-Benz, you have to sign a contract that requires you to turn the car over to the auto maker's port agents for shipping. If you don't, you have to pay a big penalty to true up the taxes.

 

As Americans, we get some great deals on cars.

 

You're in Hawaii. There's always that small print that says "Prices may be higher in Alaska and Hawaii." :)

[cruising cockroach]

You'd be surprised. A large Mercedes (S Class) is significantly more expensive in England than it is in the USA.

 

To be fair, U.K. cars have to be right-hand drive (only Japan, handful of British commonwealth countries & former possessions, and Thailand) and the market for RHD is smaller than the left-hand drive. Cost isn't great but isn't negligible either. The U.K. has the highest prices for cars (taxes excluded) of any E.U. country in the past. I think it is still true.

[cruising cockroach]

Since we've seemingly moved to Mercedes-Benz...

 

The smallest mid-sized E-class sedann in the U.S. is the E250 BlueTEC. U.S. model carries an MSRP of $51,400 and it only comes with a 7-speed auto.

 

The German market E250 BlueTEC sedan has an MSRP of €47,154 with a 6-speed manual. The German cars have a 9 speed auto - not available in the US - as an option for €2,560 so the tax-out price is USD 56,000 for the 9-spd auto.

 

Smallest E class in Germany is the E200 BlueTEC for €41,264 and again, with a 6-spd manual with the 7-spd auto used in U.S. models available for €2,560. So a manual E200 would sell for the equivalent of USD 46,500 so that is cheaper than the U.S. E250 with 7-spd auto but with a smaller motor (2/3 the horsepower) and a manual transmission (or USD 49,400 for the 7-spd auto). There is even a model inbetween the E220 that would price out more than the U.S. E250 for an auto transmission (albeit 9 speed).

[RollieUK]

You missed my point about Dutch shore excursions and announcements. And, that the english speaking Captain was taken off deliberately because of the language barrier. It would be nice if people would read entire posts before responding...there'd be fewer misunderstandings.

 

It would also be nice if you answered people's questions. As I asked at post #101 "where was this cruise?" That could make a lot of difference to the language(s) used onboard.

 

[LindaM]

It would also be nice if you answered people's questions. As I asked at post #101 "where was this cruise?" That could make a lot of difference to the language(s) used onboard.

 

 

So, you are saying that if a ship sails out of a European port, the announcements should be in the language of the predominant group of passengers? I have sailed out of Europe many,many times and had not noticed this on HAL. Perhaps I am wrong.

 

Where the cruise was from had no bearing if HAL's policy IS to make announcements in the language of people of the embarking port...which was Netherlands. I didn't think I had to make this more clear since I said the announcements were in Dutch. In only stands to reason the cruise left from a Dutch speaking port. People need to read before they post!

 

I think it's great that HAL made that accomodation. But, Europeans should be happy for that and not expect to get those accomodations for nothing. Unless HAL is a Dutch owned company.

 

In conclusion, my question to you is....does HAL make announcements in other languages in Europe? This is HAL...not Costa or MSC. Am I wrong?

Edited August 17, 2014 by LindaM
edit

[cruising cockroach]

If it wasn't for the European preference for loud all-night discos, I'd sail MSC and Costa to get away from xenophobes. I like HAL as the whole ship pretty much goes to bed after 9-10 on the longer cruises. :D

[RollieUK]

So, you are saying that if a ship sails out of a European port, the announcements should be in the language of the predominant group of passengers? I have sailed out of Europe many,many times and had not noticed this on HAL. Perhaps I am wrong.

 

Where the cruise was from had no bearing if HAL's policy IS to make announcements in the language of people of the embarking port...which was Netherlands. I didn't think I had to make this more clear since I said the announcements were in Dutch. In only stands to reason the cruise left from a Dutch speaking port. People need to read before they post!

 

I think it's great that HAL made that accomodation. But, Europeans should be happy for that and not expect to get those accomodations for nothing. Unless HAL is a Dutch owned company.

 

In conclusion, my question to you is....does HAL make announcements in other languages in Europe? This is HAL...not Costa or MSC. Am I wrong?

 

I think if a HAL (HOLLAND America Line) cruise is sailing from a DUTCH port with a significant number of DUTCH passengers on board that it is quite reasonable for the announcements to be in DUTCH as well as English.

 

Why do you think that English should be the main/only language on a Dutch registered ship sailing in the Netherlands?

 

Europeans tend to feel this is an unfortunate attitude of many Americans.

 

Edited August 17, 2014 by RollieUK

[chrispb]

I'll have to tell my friends in Europe that their experiences are not real. . . I've had a few friends in the military who buy their BMWs or other "European" cars in Germany before coming back to the states because they are so much cheaper. I also had a friend complain about buying a bottom of the line Chevrolet Van for his family for twice what he would have paid here. Both in the last few months.

 

You are correct. Plenty of Brits also order direct then go to Germany to pick up their BMW and drive them home. Much cheaper than dealerships in UK.

Edited August 17, 2014 by chrispb

[cruising cockroach]

You are correct. Plenty of Brits also order direct then go to Germany to pick up their BMW and drive them home. Much cheaper than dealerships in UK.

 

The British new car market isn't called "treasure island" by auto manufacturers for no reason......

[LSEA]

I am Scots and when eating in a NY diner returned my main course and asked them to reduce the portion by 2/3rds. The portion size was obscene and totally unnecessary.

 

An American friend of mine who is a retired director of Medicine blames the growing obesity epidemic in the world on lack of portion control. Unfortunately the practice of oversized portions is spreading.

 

Quality over quantity every time...... please.

 

Annie

 

I can't help but think when an American makes a point of correcting a Scottish restaurateur concerning the operation of their establishment, that American is labeled "ugly".

[Fouremco]

I think if a HAL (HOLLAND America Line) cruise is sailing from a DUTCH port with a significant number of DUTCH passengers on board that it is quite reasonable for the announcements to be in DUTCH as well as English.

 

Why do you think that English should be the main/only language on a Dutch registered ship sailing in the Netherlands?

 

Europeans tend to feel this is an unfortunate attitude of many Americans.

It sounds quite reasonable to me. Airlines operate with bi- or multilingual announcements, and I see no reason why a ship having the capability should refrain from doing so. Having lived and worked in a bilingual environment of of my life, it just seems normal.

[happy_traveller]

Because I am dutch we like HAL and we like the announcement in Dutch and English most of us are speaking 4 language so for us it is normal that other people don't speak our language. Therefor we are learning theirs you might try too is my suggestion

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[doublebzz]

I believe the best language for all announcements is silence - except, of course, for emergencies.

[sheba2008]

I'm Linda from Belgium.

 

Insurance is not incl.in the cruisefare, I always have to buy a separated medical and travel insurance private, it is not in the cruisefare.

I don't know why we pay more than US and Canadian but UK pay even more than us (Belgium). If I see a good price for me I book. I do different cruiseline's, the best route and price wins.

I always pay the tips for my roomsteward and all the others, let that be clear.

 

Linda :)

[doublebzz]

I got thinking about this thread on my recent TA and came up with this question about price disparity. What happens if one does an on board booking? Are you saying that Europeans will be quoted a different price than Americans if they book onboard?

Edited September 24, 2014 by doublebzz

[happy_traveller]

We made a booking on board and it was still more then what the Americans were paying and our orice was straight away in euro's stead of dollars as we aspected

 

 

Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met behulp van Tapatalk

[luv2cruisenz]

We made a booking on board and it was still more then what the Americans were paying and our orice was straight away in euro's stead of dollars as we aspected

Yes, HAL have a rule that they will always sell to you in the currency of your country of residence. If they don't sell in your home currency, it will be in USD.

[RDC1]

Since cruise lines have a presence in different countries (i.e. a corporate presence) which is bound by different regulations, tax structures, currency, etc. It makes sense that there are different pricing structures.

 

Pricing structures are designed to yield equivalent revenue at the back end, after all of the differences in costs and risks are accounted for. Note that I used the word risks. This means having to allow for currency changes, cancellation risks, etc.

 

There is also a competitive aspect to a pricing model. That means how it is priced compared to other alternatives. The last time I was in the UK for example, the cost of things were higher than in the US by a factor equivalent to the exchange rate between dollar and pound. An item that cost 1 dollar in the US cost 1 pound in the UK (about 60 -65% higher. This was pretty much across the board. So if one was including competition (land vacations for example) the pricing model would indicate higher prices as well. Now this could apply to items sold through the corporate entity for that country, it could also apply to cruises conducted in that market to reflect higher local costs and competition with land based vacations.

 

Now the cruise lines set the rules based upon the contracts with various entities and regulations. If they didn't try and force you through the national entity then they would probably be in violation of some contract or regulation. If you do go through that entity then you run into how the pricing models are constructed based upon costs, risks and competition. If you find away around it, then you are no longer covered under any protections that your country might require/provide that the local entity must abide by. For example, I would be very surprised if tax law in various countries did not require revenue from residents of that country to be booked in the local corporate structure.

Edited September 25, 2014 by RDC1

[Globaliser]

I got thinking about this thread on my recent TA and came up with this question about price disparity. What happens if one does an on board booking? Are you saying that Europeans will be quoted a different price than Americans if they book onboard?

Yes, HAL have a rule that they will always sell to you in the currency of your country of residence.

The way that it was explained to me, it was slightly different. If you book on board (or just buy a FCC), it has to be in the same currency as that in which you booked your current cruise. This was particularly interesting when I happened to be on a cruise that had been booked in the US, and I could not buy a GBP FCC - even though normally HAL would fight tooth and nail to make sure that I bought only in GBP and not in USD.

[Globaliser]

Since cruise lines have a presence in different countries (i.e. a corporate presence) which is bound by different regulations, tax structures, currency, etc. It makes sense that there are different pricing structures.

 

Pricing structures are designed to yield equivalent revenue at the back end, after all of the differences in costs and risks are accounted for. Note that I used the word risks. This means having to allow for currency changes, cancellation risks, etc.

While it makes sense that there are different pricing structures, I don't believe that there's any evidence that HAL (or any cruise line adopting a similar approach) designs them to yield equivalent net revenue after costs and risks. The pricing differences are far too big for that in many instances - particularly when you compare Australian market prices with US market prices.

There is also a competitive aspect to a pricing model. That means how it is priced compared to other alternatives. The last time I was in the UK for example, the cost of things were higher than in the US by a factor equivalent to the exchange rate between dollar and pound. An item that cost 1 dollar in the US cost 1 pound in the UK (about 60 -65% higher. This was pretty much across the board.

I think that if you did a thorough analysis, you'd find that the difference is not nearly so great.

 

For example, if you go to a restaurant in the US and order something priced on the menu at $10, you end up paying about $13. If you go to a restaurant in the UK and order something priced at £10, you end up paying just over £11.

 

In addition, much of the difference is accounted for by different rates of sales tax. If you were to strip out the sales tax from those numbers, the US meal would be about $12, and the UK meal would be about £9.50.

 

And sales tax is important for comparisons of travel, because travel is not subject to sales tax in the UK (and I think that's the same in the US). So trying to extrapolate from comparisons between the prices of taxable retail items really doesn't get you anywhere.

 

The best guide to all of this is, I think, still the Big Mac Index.

Now the cruise lines set the rules based upon the contracts with various entities and regulations. If they didn't try and force you through the national entity then they would probably be in violation of some contract or regulation. If you do go through that entity then you run into how the pricing models are constructed based upon costs, risks and competition. If you find away around it, then you are no longer covered under any protections that your country might require/provide that the local entity must abide by. For example, I would be very surprised if tax law in various countries did not require revenue from residents of that country to be booked in the local corporate structure.

On this aspect, I am confident that there are no laws or regulations in the UK which prohibit HAL from taking bookings in the US, on US conditions, from UK residents. You're right that these would be subject to the different consumer protection rules in the US, and that the customer would no longer have the benefit of the (usually higher) UK consumer protection rules. But is it illegal or a violation of some law for HAL to take that booking in the US? The answer is no.

 

Why can I be so confident? There are two reasons.

 

First, if you are a US citizen resident in the UK, HAL will take a booking from you in the US. If there were any law that required UK residents to book in the UK, there could be no exemption for US citizens. So if any such law exists, HAL would be in breach of it. So by accepting bookings from UK-resident US citizens, HAL demonstrates that there is no such law.

 

Second, if there were any such law, it would apply equally to Carnival Cruise Line, which is a sister company of HAL and to which identical rules would apply. Yet CCL's US office will happily take a booking from a UK resident, on US conditions. CCL applies no such restriction, even though it's a sister company. If it's not illegal for CCL to do this, it isn't illegal for HAL.

 

Therefore the only conclusion is that HAL does this of its own volition, in order to divide and conquer - or, to be less polite, gouge.

[1of4]

As Canadians travelling on a cruise out of a USA port we have the choice of purchasing FCC in American or Canadian dollars. If we use an American TA we can specify we want our cruise paid for in either currency. If we use a Canadian TA we are not asked and sometimes we are quoted the US dollar price and sometimes the Canadian dollar price. If I go online I always get the Canadian dollar pricing.

[Hlitner]

We think there are some other issues that boost the prices for Europeans and also folks in some other places like Australia. In fact, a good friend of ours who is a 5 Star Mariner (and avid HAL cruiser) uses a Canadian address (which belongs to a friend) to book his HAL cruises....although he actually lives in Australia.

 

But we think that Europe is a different kind of situation since HAL (and every other company doing business in the EU) must carefully navigate the many consumer regulations that exist within the EU. For example, Europe has very specific rules when it comes to deposits, refunds, and cancellations. In the USA these kind of issues are generally left to the discretion of the cruise line (although there are other consumer protection laws). A few years ago when the Iceland volcano caused so many cancellations of air transportation, the differences in laws became very apparent. In many cases, those from the EU that got stranded outside their own countries were entitled to full reimbursement from the airlines....while those of us from the US were generally on our own. And that is just one example.

 

As to looking at the online sites of the cruise lines, it might benefit Europeans to use some sophisticated computer applications (such as Tor) to fool the cruise line web sites into thinking your computer is actually located within the USA. It makes for an interesting comparison. We recently used such an application to purchase a New Zealand train ticket. By using a computer that appears to be located in Australia or New Zealand we could save over 50% on the cost of the ticket...as this particular private rail line charges much higher prices to those living outside AU and NZ. But once booked, we could simply print our lower cost ticket at home.

 

Hank

[iancal]

We did exactly that to book 3 domestic flights within Turkey a few years ago. We do it to buy hotel rooms from a large UK tour company. We also have to use use a valid UK postal code. Any valid postal code will 'fool' the computer however we are fortunate to have an accomodation address. Their computer processes the order but does not mind our out of country credit card.

[Globaliser]

But we think that Europe is a different kind of situation since HAL (and every other company doing business in the EU) must carefully navigate the many consumer regulations that exist within the EU. For example, Europe has very specific rules when it comes to deposits, refunds, and cancellations. In the USA these kind of issues are generally left to the discretion of the cruise line (although there are other consumer protection laws).

If HAL takes a booking in Europe, on European terms, then of course that is right. And the customer will take the benefit of the higher levels of consumer protection here.

 

But CCL will happily take a booking in the US from a European, on US terms. If CCL can do it, so can HAL.

 

So the HAL prohibition on European customers booking in the US, on US terms, has got nothing to do with any laws or regulations. HAL has unilaterally chosen to impose that prohibition on European residents (other than the specially favoured treatment accorded to European-resident US citizens, of course, which also demonstrates why this has got nothing to do with laws or regulations).