Just want free time in St. Petersburg, don't want a visa

[Giantfan13]

I do not post out of ignorance of the situation, in fact no one has come up with data to show an error. You assume way too much, I am not Russian but know the details of immigration law and the industry like no other foreigner in St Petersburg. Yes, these companies are pushed, every time someone asks an innocent question the same few people fall all over themselves trying to persuade the newcomer to use their particular company. Some apparently are being paid to do it according to ex-employees of at least one.

 

I caught several of them spamming Trip Advisor with fake accounts which brought threats of violence. Just one example of that tactic pushed one of them to #1 one attraction in St Petersburg ahead of Hermitage or Russian Museum....all before she had an office and before even one client. I was an advocate for tightening up the user reviews to make them less easy to abuse and they did.

It is not just tour operators doing it, but small hotels and restaurants also and I call them out equally. With hundreds of past ports many have visited, why so much daily posting about just one port, and nearly every post trying to influence others to use one company? You will have to admit it looks pretty suspicious. Check the posting history of some and you will see an interesting pattern. Read the other port referrals and you do not see the same people constantly promoting the same companies, they talk about the cruise, the city or tours, not the companies they bought from 5-6 years ago. The private forums for destination experts on the biggest forum discusses this often, how easy it is to spot the fake accounts since the posts are about things normal visitors would not care much about, and how devoid they are of normal traveler comments about the destination rather than the agent or office internal affairs of some service provider. Look at the posts objectively. There is a clear line between the people who post about their activities and photos, and those who post almost entirely about getting others to do business with one company. One of your favorites posted so many fake reviews and comments by "customers" on Trip Advisor that is was laughable that every posting, regardless of the name attached focused on how nice the owner was and about internal office flattery and nothing about the tour, what "they" did or what their impressions were about their trip, all in exactly the same paragraph structure and work usage and a link to the office in the 3rd paragraph, followed by another short paragraph of another glowing compliments to the owner. That was why you have heard of that company, not because of superior performance. You do not even know who the owners are of the forum promoted companies. One is owned by a large well known, infamous in fact, Russian government owned gigantic corporation. One that your government would not want you doing business with. You think it owned by a hard working small ($5,000,000/month) business owner.

 

Regarding visas. You will notice I wrote specifically if they were American citizens, the process of getting the liberal 3 year multiple entry visa is easier than ever and the same cost as a 72 hour transit visa. Where am I wrong there? Sure it is expensive because Russians are charged the same. Countries that have liberalized visas for Russians have gotten immediate benefits like dropping visa requirements entirely. And, yes, it is relatively easy to get a Russian visa compared to many countries and few if any are turned down, while most Russian's applying for some countries are turned down and their high visa application fees lost. Having to take days off work to travel 4,000 miles to apply and then return for an interview, and be turned down is not hassle? But a foreigner who is complaining about having to fill out a form is a hassle? Fill out one on-line form, print a copy, and print a copy of the invitation, send passport and photo plus payment and get your passport back in a week to 10 days. Not sure where the problem is so difficult that it can't be done?

All is not as it seems.... At one time, one of them admitted that every mention on Cruise Critic, represented $50,000 in additional sales. There is a lot of incentive to cheat. Now it is probably not as profitable since so many are pushing the same couple companies out of the 130 who are conducting tours without complaints. If people just talked about their activities and impressions, like normal visitor reports, none of this would be an issue.

 

You know Stan, we are NOT Trip Advisor and we very rarely even tell people to go there to check things out. In fact we have said many times that TA is filled with company plants, workers, brothers, sisters whomever who are nothing but shills for that company. You never see that here. We have, over the years, see those 'one post wonders' who tell us what a great time they had using X|YZ company. Everyone with half a brain can see they are plants from that company and are usually removed.

 

I really don't know what your agenda is? John Bull said it perfectly, so we really don't have to repeat it. You really seem to have a one track mind and a real agenda against all the major tour companies in St Petersburg. Maybe you are the plant to continually come here to knock them.

 

AND, we do not push these companies. I have been here for many years and I have NEVER heard anyone say you HAVE TO use this particular company, you MUST use this particular company. In fact you seem to be pushing the idea that people here work for some of these companies and are paid to, as you put it, PUSH them on people.

Myself, I used SPB Tours. I had a great time using them. Dogs4Fun used ALLA and she had a great time using them, so why shouldn't we tell others who ASK, that we used this particular company and we had a great time. Myself, I give reasons why I liked them, the personal touch that Victoria gave to me, as others have told of other people they had dealing with at other companies.

 

Why the hatred of all these companies. Are you being paid to knock them? It sure seems that way to many of the regulars here. You have stated several things that are just out and out not true, and you do this over and over again. You are accusing posters here of being shills for particular companies and that is insulting.

 

You have an agenda. You come here every so often to push it, while we are here most every day trying to help people from our experiences.

You do this board a disservice.

 

Cheers

 

Len

[Illyria]

There might not be pushing agencies. But there's definitely a push to force people to use an agency instead of trying it on their own

Because you don't just "go out on your own". Either you pay for a visa or you pay a tour company to arrange some sort of "free time" for you (and the level of "freedom" varies depending on how much leeway they think they can legally give you).

 

Many people have commented that there's no way they could have navigated SPB on their own because none of the signs are in English, and unless you can read Cyrillic, you wouldn't even know if you're on the right street or the right subway station.

 

Last time I was in SPB, 7 years ago, I used a visa agency because it's next to impossible to secure an official "invitation letter" when you're not staying in a hotel or someone's residence. Now the process is even more of a P.I.T.A., so I wouldn't think twice about paying the extra ~$100 to the agency to take care of the process (you'll still spend hours filling out the paperwork, but at least they'll take care of the rest).

[John Bull]

There might not be pushing agencies. But there's definitely a push to force people to use an agency instead of trying it on their own

 

Because you don't just "go out on your own". Either you pay for a visa or you pay a tour company to arrange some sort of "free time" for you (and the level of "freedom" varies depending on how much leeway they think they can legally give you).

 

That's the way I read Carolla's post too.

A dig at the Russian Govt's restrictions rather than at posters on Cruise Critic.

 

Quite right too.

But Carolla needs to bear in mind that generally visitors to Russia have to pre-purchase a visa, with all its bureaucracy & costs.

The visa-free accompanied tours were then introduced for cruise visitors, so despite the restrictions those tours are a concession rather than an imposition.

 

BTW, on the matter of the Cryllic alphabet, I can understand & say " Где я могу найти прохладное пиво? " about as well as I can understand & say "我在哪裡可以找到一個妓女？".

Which could get me into deep doo-doos. :D

 

JB :)

[Pet Nit Noy]

Also the Russian visa application is lengthy and, in some areas, directions are either unclear or not present at all. Of all the visa applications I've completed, the Russian visa application was the most frustrating.

 

I used to live about three miles outside of Washington, DC. For decades, I took care of my getting my own visas just because it typically took no effort and I liked getting to see the embassies. (In my experience, only Russia and China maintained a separated Consulate or a Consulate entrance that offered no glimpse of the Embassy.)

 

However, getting our visas for our first trip to Russia -- independent travel and a river cruise -- was the worst experience visa I've ever had. The experience in the Russian Consulate office was an exposure to silly bureaucracy run amok.

 

The room where visa applicants lined up was the size of my present kitchen and eating area so everyone could hear and see everything that was being said.

 

Ahead of us, the following incidents took place:

o one applicant was turned away because the official letter of invitation was a tear-off slip from a letter-size piece of paper rather than a complete piece of paper.

o one applicant was turned away because she was a resident of Pennsylvania visiting relatives in Washington, DC. Unfortunately, the Russians had assigned PA residents to the NY City Consulate and would not process the application for someone standing in front of them because she lived outside their official territory.

o one applicant had his papers rejected because they were wrinkled with a smudge in one corner.

o one applicant had her papers rejected because (wait for it!) she had used the application on the web site of the Russian embassy. You're probably shaking your head now and thinking I've misstated that. No! The way the form off the web site printed out, there was one question per page and the application ran to 14 pages. The consulate made the woman sit there and complete a more compact version of their own internet application.

 

There were two windows for visitors and a line of three or so applicants in front of each window. That means that out of a group of six applicants ahead of us, four were rejected, some permanently and some temporarily. My husband and I doubted that our application would be accepted. We had used the form that our river tour company had sent us, but between receiving the application and the day we presented ourselves at the consulate window, the form had changed. (Out of "reciprocity" the new form was the fourteen-page, personally-intrusive extravaganza that had caused problems for one of the other applicants.) My husband and I had agreed that we were unwilling to answer such an intrusive form and that if our applications were rejected we simply wouldn't take the trip to Russia.

 

Finally, our turn came. We handed over our applications, the clerk looked them over, said, "Come back in four days to pick up your visa" and handed us a receipt to do so. To this day, we don't know why we got through the bureaucratic silliness. But the bottom line is that when we booked our upcoming Baltic cruise, we knew there would be no way I would go through that process again. We'll be using the services of a licensed tour guide who will bring us into the country under their blanket visa arrangements.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Pet Nit Noy

[cruisemom42]

AND, we do not push these companies. I have been here for many years and I have NEVER heard anyone say you HAVE TO use this particular company, you MUST use this particular company. In fact you seem to be pushing the idea that people here work for some of these companies and are paid to, as you put it, PUSH them on people.

 

Len

 

With all due respect for the amount of helpful information you provide, I do think that while individual companies may not be "pushed", there is definitely a paternalistic "we know best" attitude among many posters; i.e., that you cannot do St. Petersburg any other way than with a private guide.

 

This attitude can be intimidating to those doing research and interested in trying to get a visa and go it alone. If you've never been somewhere and nearly everyone tells you it's impossible to do what seems reasonable to YOU, you tend to cave and go with what is recommended.

 

I would also like to say that for some travelers, it is not about how many sights you can "cram" into one day with a guide versus how many you can see on your own. Nor is it about the money. It may be more a matter of knowing how one likes to experience a city on one's own.

 

For some, navigating around a city (using public transportation or taxis) versus being whisked off in a private car; and having the chance to experience normal interactions with others adds to the experience.

 

While I agree it is important to know what is involved in sightseeing in St. Petersburg and the hassles of getting a visa, I wish there was a more encouraging attitude toward those who really ARE capable enough of going it alone and enjoying it. I really enjoy reading the few threads giving such advice.

 

I have been participating on this site for many years since my Baltics cruise in 2005 (!) -- and rarely give specific info any more since mine is dated -- but while I had a very nice experience with a private tour of 4, I really wish I had more strongly pursued seeing St. Petersburg on my own. When I return, as I'm sure I will, that is exactly what I plan to do.

Edited March 17, 2015 by cruisemom42

[dogs4fun]

With all due respect for the amount of helpful information you provide, I do think that while individual companies may not be "pushed", there is definitely a paternalistic "we know best" attitude among many posters; i.e., that you cannot do St. Petersburg any other way than with a private guide.

 

This attitude can be intimidating to those doing research and interested in trying to get a visa and go it alone. If you've never been somewhere and nearly everyone tells you it's impossible to do what seems reasonable to YOU, you tend to cave and go with what is recommended.

 

I would also like to say that for some travelers, it is not about how many sights you can "cram" into one day with a guide versus how many you can see on your own. Nor is it about the money. It may be more a matter of knowing how one likes to experience a city on one's own.

 

For some, navigating around a city (using public transportation or taxis) versus being whisked off in a private car; and having the chance to experience normal interactions with others adds to the experience.

 

While I agree it is important to know what is involved in sightseeing in St. Petersburg and the hassles of getting a visa, I wish there was a more encouraging attitude toward those who really ARE capable enough of going it alone and enjoying it. I really enjoy reading the few threads giving such advice.

 

I have been participating on this site for many years since my Baltics cruise in 2005 (!) -- and rarely give specific info any more since mine is dated -- but while I had a very nice experience with a private tour of 4, I really wish I had more strongly pursued seeing St. Petersburg on my own. When I return, as I'm sure I will, that is exactly what I plan to do.

 

I agree. For those who are intrepid souls, willing to do some research, and want to experience the city "their way", St. Petersburg is not a difficult city to navigate. Armed with a decent city map and a metro map, the city is easily done on one's own. In fact, one can even easily walk from where the larger ship's dock on Vasilyevsky Island to the metro (there is English signage in the metro stations) - it is only a 2.5 km walk to the nearest metro station (or, you can take a taxi). If you are fortunate enough to dock at the embankment, you are already in the city center.

 

For me, planning a DIY excursion is part of the fun! I do a lot a research and then set out on my own to pursue my own rather esoteric interests. I loved seeing and doing things in St. Petersburg and Moscow that are never mentioned in any of the tour itineraries. DIY should never be discouraged for travelers who, like myself, prefer to DIY. There is so very much to see and do in this fascinating city!

 

Other than the suburbs (Catherine Palace & Peterhof), everything is very centrally located (Hermitage, St. Isaac's, Church of Blood, etc.) and easy to find. However, like any destination European city during the high season, the major tourist sites will have queues so one must take that into consideration if you actually want to enter. You can purchase the Petersburg card which allows entrance to most of the major museums. http://petersburgcard.com/eng/

 

There are English audio guides available for rental at many of the venues (even the Dostoevsky museum).

 

For those who are entering Russia via cruise ship and want to see as much as possible (i.e., the "highlights" that most first timers want to visit like Catherine Palace, Hermitage, Peterhof, etc.) during their short stay, are concerned with cost, don't wish to go though the visa process (cost + frustration), and are not comfortable with DIY, I think that an organized tour is the best option. Most first time cruisers to St. Petersburg fall into this category.

[John Bull]

With all due respect for the amount of helpful information you provide, I do think that while individual companies may not be "pushed", there is definitely a paternalistic "we know best" attitude among many posters; i.e., that you cannot do St. Petersburg any other way than with a private guide.

 

This attitude can be intimidating to those doing research and interested in trying to get a visa and go it alone. If you've never been somewhere and nearly everyone tells you it's impossible to do what seems reasonable to YOU, you tend to cave and go with what is recommended.

 

I would also like to say that for some travelers, it is not about how many sights you can "cram" into one day with a guide versus how many you can see on your own. Nor is it about the money. It may be more a matter of knowing how one likes to experience a city on one's own.

 

For some, navigating around a city (using public transportation or taxis) versus being whisked off in a private car; and having the chance to experience normal interactions with others adds to the experience.

 

While I agree it is important to know what is involved in sightseeing in St. Petersburg and the hassles of getting a visa, I wish there was a more encouraging attitude toward those who really ARE capable enough of going it alone and enjoying it. I really enjoy reading the few threads giving such advice.

 

I have been participating on this site for many years since my Baltics cruise in 2005 (!) -- and rarely give specific info any more since mine is dated -- but while I had a very nice experience with a private tour of 4, I really wish I had more strongly pursued seeing St. Petersburg on my own. When I return, as I'm sure I will, that is exactly what I plan to do.

 

I promise I really do know where you're coming from, cruisemom. ;)

 

Everyone has their own comfort levels, & we're folk who very rarely take even private tours, let alone ships' cattle-herding - much happier to do our own thing using local public transport or rental cars.

 

Yes, the advice on this forum is overwhelmingly to take a tour in St Petersburg. And I'm one of those who're guilty as charged.

I think "paternalistic attitudes" are understandable - members don't want to be responsible for another member screwing-up, so there's bound to be a degree of caution in advising others. Often over-cautious, but IMHO not in this case.

 

Yes, I guess it is intimidating that virtually everyone gives such advice. But given for good reason

I suppose I was intimidated in the same way - but glad that I was.

Finding ones way around the metro, the hydrofoil, the sights etc, are all part of the experience - but do eat into a cruiser's limited time.

The visa complications/expenses are well-documented, plus other significant reasons such as the written/spoken language, pre-public admission, line-busting, hand-holding etc.

To me they all add up to a no-brainer for a first-time visitor.

 

Like you, I'm interested in the experience of the few contributors who've gone down the DIY visa route, rather than taking a tour. And they do seem to have gotten on OK.

But they're (almost?) all folk who've been to Russia before, &, usually to St Petersburg.

 

Unlike you, if we take another Baltic cruise it'll still be on a visa-free tour.

Next time it'll be a private tour, to our own itinerary, and will be more interactive than sight-seeing. But isn't that usually the way with second-time around anywhere?

 

But for the vast majority on a first-time cruise visit, I'll continue to advise that a visa-free tour is the all-round best bet. By a country mile.

 

Or mebbe I'm just getting old, fat & lazy :D

 

JB :)

[cruisemom42]

Or mebbe I'm just getting old, fat & lazy :D

 

JB :)

 

Never!!

 

You're probably right in that a private tour is the best option for many (but not ALL) first-time visitors. But then there are the stubborn ones....:o

 

I feel sure I could've done it. And enjoyed it. It seems relatively risk-free given most ships are there overnight. Even if you get seriously lost or go on a bender, you've got a good 36 hours to make it back to the ship... :eek: (I'm imagining someone drunk and singing "My ship is sailing in the evening...." to the tune of My Fair Lady's "I'm getting married in the morning....")

 

Maybe it's the "glass half empty/half full" thing, but I noticed lots of the key signage was in English as well as Cyrillic even when I was there and I'm sure it's better now.

Edited March 17, 2015 by cruisemom42

[Giantfan13]

Never!!

 

You're probably right in that a private tour is the best option for many (but not ALL) first-time visitors. But then there are the stubborn ones....:o

 

I feel sure I could've done it. And enjoyed it. It seems relatively risk-free given most ships are there overnight. Even if you get seriously lost or go on a bender, you've got a good 36 hours to make it back to the ship... :eek: (I'm imagining someone drunk and singing "My ship is sailing in the evening...." to the tune of My Fair Lady's "I'm getting married in the morning....")

 

Maybe it's the "glass half empty/half full" thing, but I noticed lots of the key signage was in English as well as Cyrillic even when I was there and I'm sure it's better now.

 

I see you are a very experienced cruiser. Ourselves, we have been on about 14 cruises and except for the very first one, we have never done any ships sponsored excursions. We just didn't know any better on that first one. We love to walk and do walking tours, and if it is in any way possible, we always opt to do it ourselves. Sometimes that is impossible, like when we were in the Bahamas and we wanted to do a Segway tour. The only way to do that was with a private company, so when necessary we do opt for that. On our pre cruise stay in London, we wanted to do a day trip to Paris. EVERYONE told us you can't see Paris in one day, but we sure tried. No tour, we just went and experienced Paris the way we wanted and loved every minute of it. Like many here, we did the entire Baltics, other than St Petersburg,on our own.

 

For MOST, visiting St Petersburg is a once in a lifetime trip so why not try and see as much of it as possible. For the most part, that is done with any of the better tour operators. Some come here looking for advice and we give them that advice, the best way to see St Petersburg in the limited time they have is being on a tour.

 

Usually, when we tour anywhere, it just isn't necessary to see everything and have every minute of the day charted out. We like to walk and take things in at our own pace. I have always said, take time to smell the roses and stop and realize where you are. Take time out to just sit and watch the people. When we travel we always take a picnic lunch, find some spot and just relax for a while. So we may not see EVERY Little nook and cranny, but we will remember where we were when we did so and so, and not have it all jumbled together.

Now after saying all of that, St Petersburg is another story. As I said, we know we will probably never get back there, sow e wanted to see as much of it as possible. We also didn't want to be herded about on a ships tour, so we opted for a small group tour and we loved it. We weren't herded about. The guide asked us things and she adjusted our tour to some of the wants of our group. Like the Grand Choral Synagogue wasn't on our itinerary, but we mentioned it to the guide and sure enough on the next day we were able to visit it. It just would be very hard to do things like this on your own in St Petersburg.

 

If that's the way you want to experience it, fine, but for most others we are just trying to save them from a lot of grief.

 

Cheers

 

Len

[cruisemom42]

The guide asked us things and she adjusted our tour to some of the wants of our group. Like the Grand Choral Synagogue wasn't on our itinerary, but we mentioned it to the guide and sure enough on the next day we were able to visit it. It just would be very hard to do things like this on your own in St Petersburg.

 

If that's the way you want to experience it, fine, but for most others we are just trying to save them from a lot of grief.

 

Cheers

 

Len

 

Yes, that IS the way I want to experience it. Whenever I tour a city by bus or car, I never truly feel like I know my way around or have a good sense of the city layout. Unless I get out and about on my own, I guess I feel like I don't truly "own" that city in my memory. I enjoy the small (and sometimes larger) challenges of negotiating public transport or even engaging a taxi.

 

Rest assured that I agree with you in principle that for most cruisers, a private tour is the way to go and is much better than a ship tour. But when folks come asking questions about DIY and seem prepared to go through the visa hassle, I think a little less draconian response is possibly in order....!

 

I don't understand your comment about how adding something like the Grand Choral Synagogue to one's itinerary wouldn't be possible if you are going it alone. Why not? If you did your research ahead of time and found out that you wanted to visit and hunted down the appropriate permissions, if needed....? (I'm quite good at this, by the way, I've gotten into places in Rome that most Romans have never even accessed!).