How Many Years Will They Sail?

[sail7seas]

Aha........Thanks, Grumpy.

[dougnewmanatsea]

Prinsendam started as Royal Viking and now is HAL........which cruise line was in the middle?

There were two in the middle... Cunard and Seabourn.

 

She started out in 1988 as ROYAL VIKING SUN (owned by Royal Viking, owned by Kloster). Kloster sold RVL to Cunard (owned by Trafalgar House) in 1994 and she became a Cunard ship but kept her name. In 1996 Trafalgar House were taken over by Kvaerner who sold Cunard to Carnival in 1998, and in 2000 they reorganized the five-ship Cunard fleet, moving three ships (ROYAL VIKING SUN and SEA GODDESS I and II) to Seabourn who were merged operationally with Cunard, giving Seabourn six ships and three entirely different products (one was SUN, the second the normal Seabourn product with PRIDE/SPIRIT/LEGEND and the third a "yacht" product with the two GODDESSes). This expansion of the Seabourn brand and merger with Cunard turned out to be a disaster, and Carnival decided to reduce Seabourn back down to a three-ship fleet. In 2001 the two GODDESSes were sold to Seabourn founder Atle Byrnestad who formed SeaDream, and in 2002 SEABOURN SUN became PRINSENDAM.

[Grumpy1]

Thanks, Doug. I thought I remembered something about Cunard involvement, but didn't research it to see how it all played out. Am I correct in the way that I read your post, that she was still called the Royal Viking Sun during the time she was part of the Cunard fleet?

[dougnewmanatsea]

Am I correct in the way that I read your post, that she was still called the Royal Viking Sun during the time she was part of the Cunard fleet?

Indeed you are. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[mariner]

Okay, before you all enter meltdown, consider this.

 

When was the last time an S-dam ship sailed a regular route out of Lauderdale?

 

Second, you can easily cut costs when you can carry 2,000 or more pax. You can also absorb losses.

 

 

I have no doubt the S-dam ships are profitable. But when they face head-to-head competition, the line can't lower the rate unless they can increase capacity.

 

I go back to my last sailing on Maasdam in St. Thomas. At no point in a cab did I hear anyone talk about anything else but all the deals and all the features on the mega ships.

 

I love the S-dam ships and wish Oceana would buy them so that HAL isn't compelled to stretch tem. But I just don't see how the line can compete with them on 7- and 10-day runs.

 

I have no evidence and well remember when 600 pax was a very profitable run. I just don't see, given the market, how can they compete?

[RevNeal]

I love the S-dam ships and wish Oceana would buy them so that HAL isn't compelled to stretch tem. But I just don't see how the line can compete with them on 7- and 10-day runs.

 

I have no evidence and well remember when 600 pax was a very profitable run. I just don't see, given the market, how can they compete?

 

As I said earlier, they'll compete best by operating in markets other than the Caribbean, markets where the megaships are a liability. With 4 Vistas and 3 new-builds (that are roughly the size of the Vistas) to run in the Caribbean for the short mass-market runs, HAL won't need to stretch the S-class ships (i.e., turn 'em into R-class ships ... for that's what they would effectively be if they were stretched).

 

Next year the Veendam will run 7 day cruises out of Tampa, but that's it. The others are either running in other regions, and/or on 10, 11, and 14 day cruises.

[dougnewmanatsea]

When was the last time an S-dam ship sailed a regular route out of Lauderdale?

Well, to be honest, who cares? There are 13 HAL ships, these four need never go near Lauderdale, or even the Caribbean in general!

 

the line can't lower the rate unless they can increase capacity.

Sure they can. It might cut into the profit margin a bit, but that doesn't mean they can't do it.

 

Anyhow, if you look at per diems for the S-class ships recently, I don't think there is any need for HAL to worry.

 

I love the S-dam ships and wish Oceana would buy them so that HAL isn't compelled to stretch tem.

I don't see either one happening... I don't think they'll be for sale any time soon and I don't see HAL stretching them either; I doubt that the investment would be worth it.

 

And if you think Oceania can make money with these ships, why do you think HAL can't?

 

I just don't see how the line can compete with them on 7- and 10-day runs.

They don't need to... They can, at least for now, but they don't need to. There are plenty of other, bigger HAL ships to put on those itineraries, while the S-class can pioneer new ones that are a bit off-the-beaten-track. They can even be short ones... I am thinking here of the RYNDAM Sea of Cortez itineraries, or the VEENDAM itinerary visiting Guatemala and Honduras. You won't find any megaships in these areas!

 

(i.e., turn 'em into R-class ships ... for that's what they would effectively be if they were stretched).

Not really... They're still actually quite different. The R-class ships have a completely different hull design, in fact I don't think they share a single dimension in common and the hull form is very, very different. (Compare the bow of an R-class ship with an S-class ship and you'll see what I mean.)

 

But I agree with you otherwise, there is simply no reason for the S-class ships to be sold or stretched or anything else. With the SOE enhancements and HAL's typically superlative maintenance, they offer just about everything that the new ships do, but in a smaller package that's perfect for less mainstream itineraries. (I might add that the R-class ships - not really that much larger - are pretty much the same, though we may see VODM and ZADM on some fairly "mainstream" itineraries" for a while longer.)

[RevNeal]

Not really... They're still actually quite different. The R-class ships have a completely different hull design, in fact I don't think they share a single dimension in common and the hull form is very, very different. (Compare the bow of an R-class ship with an S-class ship and you'll see what I mean.)

 

(sigh) Yes, I know. Frankly, Doug, you're taking me FAR too literally. Think about it from a lay-person's perspective. The S and R class ships all look like relatives of each other ... not identical, but closely related. This is amplified by the fact that the deck layouts are VERY VERY similar ... once you learn your way around one you'll never get lost on any of the others. It's as if the designers took the layout of the S-class, expanded it, improved it, and did the same with the hull configurations too.

 

The addition of a hypothetical middle extension in an S would almost certainly bring a central stair and elevator section ... which MOST non-nautical aware passengers consider the primary difference between the S and R ships.

 

But I agree with you otherwise, there is simply no reason for the S-class ships to be sold or stretched or anything else. With the SOE enhancements and HAL's typically superlative maintenance, they offer just about everything that the new ships do, but in a smaller package that's perfect for less mainstream itineraries. (I might add that the R-class ships - not really that much larger - are pretty much the same, though we may see VODM and ZADM on some fairly "mainstream" itineraries" for a while longer.)

 

I agree entirely. The Volendam and Zaandam, the Rotterdam and Amsterdam, are not much lager (a couple hundred more passengers -- at MOST -- don't make a major difference) than the S, but they will last a little longer on the "mass market itineraries" simply because they're younger. It may also be that, if we're talking 10 - 14 day routes, your dealing with somewhat more seasoned cruisers than those who jump on a Vista for a first or second 7 - day cruise.

[RevNeal]

The S and R class ships all look like relatives of each other ... not identical, but closely related. This is amplified by the fact that the deck layouts are VERY VERY similar ... once you learn your way around one you'll never get lost on any of the others. It's as if the designers took the layout of the S-class, expanded it, improved it, and did the same with the hull configurations too.

 

Indeed, their interior configurations are so MUCH alike that the designers failed to correct the most annoying aspect of the S-class ships (at least in my opnion) when they designed the R-class ships: it is impossible to go from the main dining room to the main show lounge (aft to the front) on the lower promenade deck. One has to go up or down a deck to get around the galley. Who thought up that brilliant scheme??? The Vistas manage to avoid that error ... one can go from the aft to the front of the ship on BOTH the promenade and upper promenade decks. Why didn't they engineer a correction to this bit of poor deisgn with the development of the R-class ships? It's clear that the interior designs were based upon those of the S-class (lounges in the same place, same basic configurations, almost identical style, same cabin layouts, etc) ... why not fix that fumble? They didn't ... the just duplicated it. grrrrrrrr

[RuthC]

I've been reading this discussion with an interest almost bordering on passion, as I love the S-class ships above all others. I do hope that Host Doug is right in his prediction and these grand ships are sailing for HAL for a long, long time.

 

There are many of us out here who have no interest in 7-day cruises to the Caribbean; we are done with that. We want cruises of at least 10 days, with opportunities for even longer cruises, on more exotic itineraries. I would love the opportunity to sail an S-class for a 10-14 day cruise to somewhere off the beaten path, then be able to stay on for a different itinerary of a similar length. The S-class ships can provide this for years and years to come.

And make good $$$ for HAL in the process.

I guess then the question becomes how big a profit is sufficient? Will HAL provide these kinds of cruises for a decent profit---and please many cruisers, or go where the others go for an even bigger profit---and please the stockholders.

Both groups can be made happy.

[sail7seas]

The repositioning of Statendam to Australia may indicate something of their thinking??

 

[RevNeal]

Precisely. :D

 

I would not be surprised to see more of this kind of deployment in coming years and various far-flung markets.

[MBeamTX]

A few thoughts -

 

The cruise lines are working hard to continue expanding the market for cruising, making it an annual (or even more frequent) vacation experience. Repeat cruisers want more variety, whether in the on-board features of the ship or the destinations. The mega-ships can't be accommodated at many of the more exotic ports, so it seems to me that the need for the S-class ships will only be greater - just not, as others have noted, in the high-traffic Caribbean routes. The smaller ships are an advantage in Alaska, too, aren't they?

 

Happy sails,

Susan

[mariner]

Repositioning to far-flung ports makes perfect sense. But can you get 1200 passengers to fly halfway around the world for a longer cruise on a regular basis?

 

They'd be great on a Bermuda run. Yet, they're pulling out of Norfolk in favor on NYC and a bigger ship.

 

They did cut fares after 9-11. We got meatloaf, smaller tails and miniature shrimp. That did not reflect well on HAL.

 

The SOE ``improvements'' have little to do with whether a ship stays or goes. Linens aside, the changes were made to increase onboard spending and to try to compete against ships that offer ice rinks, rock-climbing flexible dining times and assorted other features.

 

I would agree with what's been said prior to Carnival's acquisition of Cunard. Before that, Carnival trated HAL like its Tiffany line. Since Cunard and the QM2, HAL is as mainstream as ever.

 

And Carnival's chairman loves the Princess business model. There are no ships like the S-class ships in the Princess fleet.

 

They're akin to the Horizon and Zenith.

[stebul]

As with many of you, I am hoping the cruising industry will be able maintain an affordable niche between the Vista/Millenium class ships offered by Celebrity and HAL and the much more expensive small/medium sized "6 star" luxury lines like Seabourn, Crystal, and Silversea.

 

Oceania appears to be doing well, but they had the advantage of getting a very good deal on the excess capacity left behind in the wake of 2001. Their rates are also now much higher than HAL or Celebrity. HAL and Celebrity's mid-size capacity is built and paid for, and SOE as well as Celebrity's plans for Century are poised to keep these ships competitive for another few years. Windstar's fleet is aging, and it would be a shame to see that niche disappear.

 

There are plenty of people who want to go on small to mid size ships, but what remains to be seen is how that demand will stand up to the financial realitites of new ship construction and ship operations. If it becomes necessary to pay a premium to travel on a smaller ship, would you do so? Would you expect better food and service if you had to pay a premium? If this is so, then you are rapidly left with only the luxury lines offering small/mid-size service.

[Grumpy1]

I see that pricing has been released for Amsterdam 2007 Grand World Voyage and for the two Prinsendam 2007 Grand voyages, so i guess we can plan on those two ships remaining in the fleet for a while longer.

[dougnewmanatsea]

Their rates are also now much higher than HAL or Celebrity.

Actually, they have been running some great promotions lately... e.g. a 2-for-1 plus free air promotion on 2006 Europe departures. Not sure if this has expired, but taking airfare into account, fares were pretty much on par with HAL or Celebrity... Maybe even a little lower.

 

And this is not a unique situation; in my experience HAL, Celebrity, and Oceania usually have pretty similar fares. No, not if you pay full rate, but Oceania run promotions like this fairly frequently and there are some very good deals to be had.

 

Crystal's fares have also come down a lot; the top end of the market wants open-seating "all-suite" ships like Silversea or RSSC, and not traditional ships like Crystal's, so their fares have dropped quite a bit. Yes they are still higher than HAL or Celebrity but the difference has narrowed a lot in the last few years. It seems to me that Crystal is drifting into roughly the same market segment as Oceania, above HAL and Celebrity and below Silversea, RSSC, and Seabourn. A similar cruise on Silversea or RSSC is now often twice what it would cost on Crystal - despite this, Crystal's reputation still has people pegging them as being at the top end of the market, which they really are not any longer. In fact I sometimes think that people don't consider Crystal simply because they assume that they are a lot more expensive than they really are.

 

i guess we can plan on those two ships remaining in the fleet for a while longer.

AMDM is basically a new ship, she is only five years old and so should have at least 15 more years with HAL.

 

PRDM is a different story. She could go at any time but most likely a contingency of any sale would be that HAL be allowed to finish the remainder of her announced program. (Some may recal CARONIA's sale; she was sold to Saga and chartered back by Cunard for the remaining year or so of already-scheduled cruises.)

[stebul]

I have never heard of anyone paying the "full fare" on Oceania! Their discounted fares in Europe next summer are quite a bit higher than they were last year. The comparisons I ran several months ago showed me that actual cost on Oceania was about $800-1200 more per person than HAL or Celebrity (companring PH to SS on HAL or Sky Suite on Celebrity, which is what I usually prefer to travel in on each line because I like a slightly larger cabin). This is a little more than airfare, but well worth it in my opinion but not everyone's. I also gave Oceania bonus points for going to more interesting ports, which I'm willing to pay more for. Crystal, Silversea, Seabourn and Radission were much higher. Your mileage may vary.

 

In the Caribbean Oceania's per-diem fares are much closer to HAL and X, and I think the inside and outside non-balcony cabins are an excellent value on Oceania at all times (unfortunately my other half won't cruise without a midship balcony).

[bepsf]

What might happen in the next five years is that Carnival, in their quest for ever larger ships, will start phasing out their "smaller" ships, such as the 70,000 ton Fantasy class ships and hand them down to other lines within the Carnival family, such as HAL or Costa.

 

The Fantasy Class certainly will not be coming to HAL.

Perhaps Costa. CCL has a prescedent w/ sending Carnival's first newbuild Tropicale to Costa as Costa Tropicale for European-only itineraries. Or it could follow the lead of P&O Princess, as they had re-assigned Sky Princess to P&O Australia as Pacific Sky and Ocean Princess(1) to their German Aida line.

My bet is that the S Class will remain w/ the HAL fleet, relatively unaltered, for at least another 10 years - after that, all bets are off...

[bepsf]

Indeed, their interior configurations are so MUCH alike that the designers failed to correct the most annoying aspect of the S-class ships (at least in my opnion) when they designed the R-class ships: it is impossible to go from the main dining room to the main show lounge (aft to the front) on the lower promenade deck. One has to go up or down a deck to get around the galley. Who thought up that brilliant scheme??? The Vistas manage to avoid that error ... one can go from the aft to the front of the ship on BOTH the promenade and upper promenade decks. Why didn't they engineer a correction to this bit of poor deisgn with the development of the R-class ships? It's clear that the interior designs were based upon those of the S-class (lounges in the same place, same basic configurations, almost identical style, same cabin layouts, etc) ... why not fix that fumble? They didn't ... the just duplicated it. grrrrrrrr

 

It's all about the Dining Room & Kitchen general arrangements. The only way to get the big airy Main Dining Rooms such as the S and R Classes is to have the single full width kitchen blocking access to the lower level.

The solution for direct access on both levels of the Vista Dining Rooms necessitated two smaller kitchens on both levels running alongside the dining rooms, making them narrower and eliminating the space for the big open well in the center. The result feels more like two separate dining rooms that are stacked instead of a two-story dining room.

The blocking kitchen doesn't work well on the S Class ships becasue there is no middle stairwell. It works better on the R Class and could have been even better on the Vista's because of the central glass elevators - but that was a missed opportunity...

[Randyk47]

Design quirks aside, having been on both S and Vista class ships, we much prefer the S class. Well they be around for a long time? Guess that's a definition problem......10 more years doesn't seem like a long time. The S class ships will be our first choice as long as they last and as long as they have itineraries that interest us. Someday we'll also probably look back and consider the Oosterdam a cozy ship compared to what's available in future. Luckily, until they do something like new locks, the Panama Canal will continue to be a limitation for cruise companies as they can only get just so big before they can't transit the canal. Very few companies can afford to have a totally separate Pacific and Atlantic fleet.

[tkwbear]

I also prefer the S-class, having been on the Ryndam, Statendam, and Maasdam. I did not find the Zuiderdam as nice, and it had some strange design issues, especially in the auditorium.

 

The Captain of the Maasdam explained why they were building the Vista-class. He said it's the Caribbean ports that balk at letting smaller ships dock. When we arrived in Nassau, we were at the very end of the farthest dock, and only got a small piece of it.

 

Relatively speaking, even the Vista class is dwarfed by some of the monster ships in the Caribbean...

[Bodger]

When we arrived in Nassau, we were at the very end of the farthest dock, and only got a small piece of it.

 

Without knowing the details of your cruise it is difficult to be sure, but with ships doing 10 day itineraries, they often get the left over or odd dock positions, as the ships with regular 7 day itineraries get priority. They know that a certain ship will be in port every Wednesday so they get a regular berth. If your ship only docks once every ten ot twenty days you get what ever is left.

 

I would suggest that frequency is also a factor.

 

Bodger

[tkwbear]

Thatr could be true, but in this case, the Maasdam was doing the 7 day Caribbean cruises out of Fort Lauderdale - before the Zuiderdam took over the route.

[sail7seas]

I think that she was doing an alternating Eastern/Western itinerary which would have brought her to Nassau every other week, rather than weekly.