Time in Gdansk

[tmorr01]

I was looking at the tours offered in Gdansk versus private company tours. One of the tours that includes the Stutthof concentration camp is scheduled for 6.5 hours and doesn't leave the ship until 7:30. That would put the tour back at the ship at 2:00 PM. However, we are only scheduled to be in Gdansk for 6 hours, leaving at 1 PM (which I assume means we have to be back on board at noon). Does anyone know how this is actually resolved?

[tiptwo2]

? You don't go on that tour ?

 

 

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[StanandJim]

For any Port, the tours shown are a sampling of what is on offer. If a specific tour exceeds the time that your ship will be in that port on that day, it won't ever actually be available for you to book.

That goes for O-life as well as buying Tours a la carte.

[Pet Nit Noy]

I was looking at the tours offered in Gdansk versus private company tours. One of the tours that includes the Stutthof concentration camp is scheduled for 6.5 hours and doesn't leave the ship until 7:30. That would put the tour back at the ship at 2:00 PM. However, we are only scheduled to be in Gdansk for 6 hours, leaving at 1 PM (which I assume means we have to be back on board at noon). Does anyone know how this is actually resolved?

 

If the concentration camp excursion doesn't go, here are some thoughts about the appeal of staying in the city itself based on our visit there last summer.

 

Gdansk is a wonderful port call. Before our visit, I only associated it only with the Polish shipyard strike and Soviet-era events. While that remains an important reason for visiting the city -- and the new museum is filled with interesting videos about the events and lots of English signage -- the Old Town brings to mind the days when the city was a prosperous member of the Hanseatic trading league.

 

Like many towns in Poland, what you're seeing isn't original. Most of the city was destroyed in the German invasion of Poland during WWII and the initial rebuilding was charmless Soviet architecture. So there's an Disneyland quality to the present appearance of Old Town. But when the place fills up with people eating in cafes and street performers its easy to overlook the artifice and just enjoy the experience.

 

Note: The shipyard museum (European Solidarity Centre) is walkable but we regretted doing that. The walk is much longer than it appeared on the map and there are one or two tricky places when we weren't at all confident we were on the right road. Also, the museum is set back somewhat and only my familiarity the building facade from photographs enabled us to make the last correct turn. Heading back to the shuttle bus pick up, people at the admissions desk called a taxi for us. We had no precise location to tell the taxi driver for the shuttle bus meet up, but I remembered a hotel located not too far away so I gave that name. Everything worked out, but just be prepared for some quick problem solving if you go off on your own to the Solidarity Museum.

 

Here's a link to someone else's blog about Gdansk Old Town with great photographs:

http://www.hecktictravels.com/gdansk-old-town

 

Here's a link to the European Solidarity Centre:

http://www.ecs.gda.pl/title,Jezyk,pid,180,lang,2.html

[Floridiana]

Most of the city was destroyed in the German invasion of Poland during WWII

 

 

The invasion of Poland happened on September 1, 1939 and started WW2. The independent city of Gdansk was annexed by the Germans on Sept 2, 1039.

However, Gdansk was destroyed almost 6 years later in March 1945 during a battle between retreating German troops and Soviet and Polish troops on the advancing side. What was left of downtown was burned by looting Soviet troops.

[Pet Nit Noy]

The invasion of Poland happened on September 1, 1939 and started WW2. The independent city of Gdansk was annexed by the Germans on Sept 2, 1039.

However, Gdansk was destroyed almost 6 years later in March 1945 during a battle between retreating German troops and Soviet and Polish troops on the advancing side. What was left of downtown was burned by looting Soviet troops.

 

Thanks for your clarification. I know there is some German invasion connection. Am I correct in thinking Gdansk is close to the point where German troops entered Poland?

[Floridiana]

Thanks for your clarification. I know there is some German invasion connection. Am I correct in thinking Gdansk is close to the point where German troops entered Poland?

 

In September 1939, the German invasion troops advanced over almost the entire border with Poland, especially in the south and in the north towards Gdansk, which, at the time, was neither Polish nor German and had inhabitants of both groups. Neither group wanted the city destroyed. There is a documentary movie on the battle between the completely outmanned Polish defense and the German army.

 

Gdansk was one of the Hanseatic League cities in the Middle Ages. Hamburg, Bremen and Luebeck may be better known as members of this League, but there are many more cities since it was a merchant network around the Baltic Sea.

[Pet Nit Noy]

In September 1939, the German invasion troops advanced over almost the entire border with Poland, especially in the south and in the north towards Gdansk, which, at the time, was neither Polish nor German and had inhabitants of both groups. Neither group wanted the city destroyed. There is a documentary movie on the battle between the completely outmanned Polish defense and the German army.

 

Gdansk was one of the Hanseatic League cities in the Middle Ages. Hamburg, Bremen and Luebeck may be better known as members of this League, but there are many more cities since it was a merchant network around the Baltic Sea.

 

Here's an excerpt from the blog about Gdansk that I mentioned upthread:

 

"It’s all fake,” the lady at the tourist information office had bluntly proclaimed just minutes before our maiden walk into Old Town. “All the decoration is not real. It all sits on top of concrete Soviet buildings.”

 

90% of Gdańsk was destroyed in WWII (then known as the “Free City of Danzig”), in fact, the first shots of the war were fired just a few miles away from the Old Town as Germany began their invasion into Poland..."

 

Curious to find out which statement was correct, I did a Google search using the key words "first shots of WWII"

 

This web site turned up: http://ww2today.com/the-opening-shots-of-world-war-ii-on-the-westerplatte-danzig

 

However, as you'll see below, this site perpetuates the mistake that the first shots of the invasion were fired from a German battleship. The site below corrects that mistake. Three minutes earlier, shots were fired from an embankment nearer the lighthouse.

 

http://www.inyourpocket.com/gdansk/World-War-II-in-Gdansk_73591f

 

The bottom line is the same. The first shots of WWII were fired on Danzig/Gdansk.

 

However, you appear to be right if we're talking about a territorial invasion.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Pet Nit Noy

[Floridiana]

I don't think that the Gdansk rebuild is a fake, neither are the other rebuilt Polish cities. Rebuilding what was there before the war is not the same as Disney World. The lady at the tourist office has obviously never been to Disney World to see the difference. I am looking forward to visiting Gdansk this summer.

[Paulchili]

I don't think that the Gdansk rebuild is a fake, neither are the other rebuilt Polish cities. Rebuilding what was there before the war is not the same as Disney World. The lady at the tourist office has obviously never been to Disney World to see the difference. I am looking forward to visiting Gdansk this summer.

 

Totally agree.

The historical center has been faithfully rebuilt - kudos to the local authorities.

A much better solution IMO than building a few skyscrapers to replace history - which is a solution that many Asian cities prefer.

Floridiana, you are in for a treat.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Paulchili

[StanandJim]

I don't think that the Gdansk rebuild is a fake, neither are the other rebuilt Polish cities. Rebuilding what was there before the war is not the same as Disney World. The lady at the tourist office has obviously never been to Disney World to see the difference. I am looking forward to visiting Gdansk this summer.

Nothing was rebuilt as it was before the war. They took whatever new construction there was and tarted it up in the style of the ancient city which had been leveled.

I'm reminded of what Mussolini did to Rhodes while in the throes of his "Mare Nostrum" fantasy.

Charming from afar, but tragically tasteless if you know the facts.

[Paulchili]

Nothing was rebuilt as it was before the war. They took whatever new construction there was and tarted it up in the style of the ancient city which had been leveled.

I'm reminded of what Mussolini did to Rhodes while in the throes of his "Mare Nostrum" fantasy.

Charming from afar, but tragically tasteless if you know the facts.

 

I respectfully disagree.

They may have put up new facades on existing buildings but considering that Poland at the time of this reconstruction (or even at present) wasn't exactly flush with money. It made both financial and aesthetic sense to reface the existing buildings rather then level them and rebuild the entire old town from scratch - or worse, put up skyscrapers. This is not unlike the reverse process where the facades of historical buildings are preserved and the rest of the building behind the facade is new to preserve the look of these trademark buildings.

While the old town of Gdansk is not "original old" like Prague's old town, the overall effect is very pleasing in making it look very much like it might have In its heyday - an important and affluent Hanseatic town.

Unfortunately for Gdansk, it was not as fortunate to be spared the destruction of war like Prague and some other cities were but they made the best of their bad fortune. The same can be said of Catherine's Palace in St. Petersburg.

In any case - I was very impressed with the Gdansk that I saw recently compared to Gdansk that I saw in the 60's - a great improvement.

JMO.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Paulchili

[Pet Nit Noy]

I don't think that the Gdansk rebuild is a fake, neither are the other rebuilt Polish cities. Rebuilding what was there before the war is not the same as Disney World. The lady at the tourist office has obviously never been to Disney World to see the difference. I am looking forward to visiting Gdansk this summer.

 

The Old Towns of both Warsaw and Gdansk are hybrids of authenticity and fantasy. The two cities took slightly different approaches, but neither rebuilt literally "what was there."

 

In Warsaw, there are many buildings where the rebuilding was based on the available photographs down to the painted decoration on the facade. To emphasize the accuracy of those building, you'll spot displays on many of the buildings that incorporate original photographs. But ultimately, there are limits to Warsaw's accuracy.

 

Sometimes the rebuilding was based on 18th century paintings of Warsaw's Old Town made by Bernardo Belloto, a Venetian artist with a well-established reputation for improving the appearance of the buildings he was painting (e.g. changing the proportions architectural features.) Such buildings also feature displays showing fragments of Belloto's paintings. If you have a good guide, he/she will help you understand that the current appearance is a faithful recreation of the painting, but the painting isn't a faithful recreation of reality.

 

In Gdansk, the decision was made to obliterate all the German architectural elements in the reconstruction. The buildings we see today incorporate only Polish, Dutch and French architectural elements. Emotionally, this makes a lot of sense, but it is definitely a different approach to the one taken in Warsaw.

 

You should be looking forward to visiting Gdansk this summer. It is a fascinating port call. However, the appearance of the city should be understood for what it is. It is the end product of a heroic effort to reconstruct a city that was essentially obliterated, but it is not a recreation of the original. These subtle differences may not matter to you, but knowing them you may better understand the tourist office woman's comment about "fake."

Edited May 10, 2016 by Pet Nit Noy

[Floridiana]

We hired a private guide for the four of us. It's going to be interesting to hear what she says about the reconstruction process and the city's history.

[Dikrepe22]

What ship are you going on? We are going to Gdansk on September 10, 2016 and we booked a tour through Red October Tours. We will be back to the boat in plenty of time. It goes to the Concentration Camp as well as the city. You can contact me at dikrepe22atgmail.com. Looking forward to seeing what ship you will be on.

[Floridiana]

We are going in June. Booked a tour already.

[tmorr01]

The 6.5 hour tour I was referring to is offered by the ship, not a private company. I am confused as to why the ship would offer a tour that exceeds the time we will be in port. I really didn't make that clear in my post.

[Pet Nit Noy]

The 6.5 hour tour I was referring to is offered by the ship, not a private company. I am confused as to why the ship would offer a tour that exceeds the time we will be in port. I really didn't make that clear in my post.

 

Since the tour is a ship's excursion, it is entirely possible the tour provider will offer an abbreviated version to fit time in port. The travel time to the concentration camp likely can't be changed, so I assume the time at the destination would have to be shortened.

 

I don't have any experience with other ship's excursions where this was done, but I'm trying to come up with a logical answer to your basic question.

[Mura]

We haven't been to Gdansk so I am going by reports I have read. Were we to have a port of call there, we definitely would stay in town. (Maybe do the concentration camp visit but having been to Terezin outside of Prague this wouldn't be an urgency for us.)

 

However, there appear to have been comments criticizing Gdansk for not having been rebuilt in a "proper" way. Given the history of the place, it sounds to me like the authorities did the best they could. Cities that were destroyed during WWII (even if only partially) would have been hard pressed to rebuild it as they were. It's probably true that the person quoted as referring to it as Disneyland indeed has not been to Disneyland ...

 

I credit these locales for doing their best to rebuild in the old style. For me as a tourist, that is vastly preferable to skyscrapers being erected in an area where none had existed before. "Brass and glass" has never been our preferred style... (When we were refinancing our apartment years ago it was evident that our apartment was appraised at a lesser value than it should have been because the appraiser liked brass and glass, and we were in a 100 year old building in Brownstone Brooklyn. At the same time an apartment half the size of ours with no view was appraised at a higher value ...)

 

I guess what I am saying is that we value being able to see older areas as they always have been ... but when that isn't possible because of wars, then we are happy to at least see a "reconstruction".