Ethics vs Self-interest

[brittatx89]

I'm sympathetic to them not seeing their families for long periods of time however it's not fair imo to judge their wages based on U.S. worker's and our labor laws as many cruise employees come from other countries all over the world. As someone has stated they are paid based on their country of origin and for most this provides a good living.

 

Also I'm of the belief that being ethical and being self-interested aren't necessarily mutually exclusive ;) interesting post.

[Sparky2]

I just read a review where the cruiser say he/she had a wonderful cruise but will never cruise again. His/her reason was because after talking to many of the workers he/she was disappointed a the way carnival treated them. Many of these workers are from poor countries. The cruise line pays the workers according to what they would get paid in their country. For example, a worker from Philippines (as most cruise lines workers are) would get $2 - $4 per hour and would work long hours.

 

1. Do you guys think this is ethical? Should the cruise lines pay the workers American wages seeing the ships are operating from American ports?

 

2. Knowing that if the pay for the workers raise so will the prices to cruise or they will limit things that are "free", should we care that the workers are underpaid?

 

Thoughts....

 

Don't forget that they get lots of tips, too, if they are waitstaff & cabin stewards.

[jimbo5544]

I'm sympathetic to them not seeing their families for long periods of time however it's not fair imo to judge their wages based on U.S. worker's and our labor laws as many cruise employees come from other countries all over the world. As someone has stated they are paid based on their country of origin and for most this provides a good living.

 

Also I'm of the belief that being ethical and being self-interested aren't necessarily mutually exclusive ;) interesting post.

Rregardless of a one time cruisers post, the system is not broken, works fine and is totally ethical.

[brittatx89]

Rregardless of a one time cruisers post, the system is not broken, works fine and is totally ethical.

 

I don't think nor did I state that the system is broken. I have sympathy for them not seeing their families for large spans of time but that's a job they chose to do, and by no means are international employees on cruise lines entitled to protections under US labor laws. Essentially I agree with the overall sentiment of most of the more "experienced" cruisers in this thread. But I suppose my opinion will mean more once I'm a two time cruiser:rolleyes:

[brittatx89]

What does experienced have to do with anything??? Did I say you said the system was broken? Is there a full moon tonight?

 

We may be at cross purposes, wasn't sure if you were refereeing to me as "one time cruiser" or the OP. If I am incorrect I apologize, no offense intended.

 

For what it's worth as a one time cruiser myself I don't see anything wrong with the system at hand. Others may feel differently and perhaps cruising isn't the right sort of vacation for them.

 

also the moon is apparently at a "waning crescent" or 30% visibility :D https://www.calendar-12.com/moon_calendar/2016/november

[jimbo5544]

We may be at cross purposes, wasn't sure if you were refereeing to me as "one time cruiser" or the OP. If I am incorrect I apologize, no offense intended.

 

For what it's worth as a one time cruiser myself I don't see anything wrong with the system at hand. Others may feel differently and perhaps cruising isn't the right sort of vacation for them.

 

also the moon is apparently at a "waning crescent" or 30% visibility :D https://www.calendar-12.com/moon_calendar/2016/november

 

I had no idea you were a one time cruiser, and I was really talking about the original reviewer quoted by the OP. No apologies needed, was just trying to clarify.... LOL, thanks for the current moon status...

[isaiahsnana]

My questions were based on the reviews and also some youtube videos I've watched. Having said that, I do not agree with your analogy when you compare it to what they would have make in their country. They are not working in their country so that should not be basis.

If you own a business, would you pay people from poor areas different from you would pay people from the richer areas? would the state they come from determine how much they should get paid?

 

Have you noticed the difference in salaries in the US from state to state? Cost of living is a greater factor than "wage" - I can live quite cheaply in some states and not so much in others on my teacher retirement salary - couldn't survive in California or New York. So yes, businesses that are national in nature do pay less in areas that have cheaper cost of living than those same companies provide in more expensive areas. Part of their salary is that food and housing is provided for these employees meaning all their salary is profit to be used for themselves and sent home to help out the family.

[poz222]

I used to work onboard... the salary paid by CCL to "tipped" positions is crazy low, however with tips it is a decent salary... when you consider where many of the workers, it is 5-15+ times the average wage in their country. Tipped positions can make $50-$100+ a day.... compare that to the average salary of say Philippines ($289 a month, $219 Indonesia and $485 in Bosnia) the crew are generally supporting MANY family members in comfortable conditions in their home countries. It is a huge sacrifice for most, but they many come back year after year and really enjoy what they do and enjoy being able to comfortably support their families back home. Many come from cultures where working abroad is a common part of their culture. By the end or in the middle of their contracts they all go through the "this is my last contract I swear!" Stage.... they go home, realize the limited options and the difficulty for them finding jobs which pay even a fraction of what they earn, and come back. I have friends from all over the world and this is generally the case. Don't get me wrong.... you work HARD onboard, weird split shifts, little time off... but you get compensated. Non tipped is still a decent salary depending on where you are from which is why crew in this positions "tend" to be from certain countries... plus it depends on the recruiting... staff (Spa, Gift Shop etc... are 3rd party contractors). Is the salary and hours equal to what you would make in America or Western Europe? NO, which is why you don't find many from here. But crew are generally satisfied with their compensation and those who aren't, are free to quit when they wish and not return.... just my 2cents

[BoDidly]

I used to work onboard... the salary paid by CCL to "tipped" positions is crazy low, however with tips it is a decent salary... when you consider where many of the workers, it is 5-15+ times the average wage in their country. Tipped positions can make $50-$100+ a day.... compare that to the average salary of say Philippines ($289 a month, $219 Indonesia and $485 in Bosnia) the crew are generally supporting MANY family members in comfortable conditions in their home countries. It is a huge sacrifice for most, but they many come back year after year and really enjoy what they do and enjoy being able to comfortably support their families back home. Many come from cultures where working abroad is a common part of their culture. By the end or in the middle of their contracts they all go through the "this is my last contract I swear!" Stage.... they go home, realize the limited options and the difficulty for them finding jobs which pay even a fraction of what they earn, and come back. I have friends from all over the world and this is generally the case. Don't get me wrong.... you work HARD onboard, weird split shifts, little time off... but you get compensated. Non tipped is still a decent salary depending on where you are from which is why crew in this positions "tend" to be from certain countries... plus it depends on the recruiting... staff (Spa, Gift Shop etc... are 3rd party contractors). Is the salary and hours equal to what you would make in America or Western Europe? NO, which is why you don't find many from here. But crew are generally satisfied with their compensation and those who aren't, are free to quit when they wish and not return.... just my 2cents

May I ask what your position was ?

[poz222]

Photographer, 5 years

[BoDidly]

That had to be an interesting job . Can I take it they hired on people with experience in this field in the past ? Now days I get the feeling they train their own people onboard when hired ?

[faeriemom03]

I have thought about it, but I am hoping that they make enough money to make it worth it for their families. I feel sadder that they are away from their families and children for so long, and that some of the passengers treat them horribly. I do my best to help in that regard. I treat them graciously (as I do with anyone in the service industry), and I tip well.

 

I also don't think it's as black and white as "if they didn't want to do it they'd find other jobs." That is a viewpoint held by those with privilege. There aren't always other options. Not everyone you meet working in a restaurant, hotel, or in any other minimum wage job in the US *wants* to be there. They do it to support themselves and their families, and they can't or there's aren't other jobs available. It can't be any different for the people working on a cruise ship, especially in countries where there just aren't a lot of jobs.

[dd likes to cruise]

I met a bartender on another cruise line who had worked more than 35 years for RCCL. And he was american. Lives in North Carolina. Happy as can be!

 

The crew I've spoken to are mainly happy overall. Sure they don't like being away from family so much but as mentioned it is worth it for the pay they receive or they would not do it contract after contract.

[Staceyface1]

I believe the hourly salary is less, however they have zero expenses while on ship. No rent, no electric bills, no heating bills, no need for auto insurance, room and board is free.... so I believe they are all probably doing ok.

 

 

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[PAPERBKWRITER]

The illegal busing tables in your favorite family restaurant works for two years gets free housing and meals and goes back home and buys a ranch...You do what yo have to do.

[Elaine5715]

I used to work onboard... the salary paid by CCL to "tipped" positions is crazy low, however with tips it is a decent salary... when you consider where many of the workers, it is 5-15+ times the average wage in their country. Tipped positions can make $50-$100+ a day.... compare that to the average salary of say Philippines ($289 a month, $219 Indonesia and $485 in Bosnia) the crew are generally supporting MANY family members in comfortable conditions in their home countries. It is a huge sacrifice for most, but they many come back year after year and really enjoy what they do and enjoy being able to comfortably support their families back home. Many come from cultures where working abroad is a common part of their culture. By the end or in the middle of their contracts they all go through the "this is my last contract I swear!" Stage.... they go home, realize the limited options and the difficulty for them finding jobs which pay even a fraction of what they earn, and come back. I have friends from all over the world and this is generally the case. Don't get me wrong.... you work HARD onboard, weird split shifts, little time off... but you get compensated. Non tipped is still a decent salary depending on where you are from which is why crew in this positions "tend" to be from certain countries... plus it depends on the recruiting... staff (Spa, Gift Shop etc... are 3rd party contractors). Is the salary and hours equal to what you would make in America or Western Europe? NO, which is why you don't find many from here. But crew are generally satisfied with their compensation and those who aren't, are free to quit when they wish and not return.... just my 2cents

 

There are repeat posters here that insist stewards and wait staff make $100,000 so no need for them to tip so thanks for some facts.

[Elaine5715]

I believe the hourly salary is less, however they have zero expenses while on ship. No rent, no electric bills, no heating bills, no need for auto insurance, room and board is free.... so I believe they are all probably doing ok.

 

 

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Majority of their salaries are sent home to support large and extended families in countries where multiple children are expected, school is not free and wives do not work.

[poz222]

There are repeat posters here that insist stewards and wait staff make $100,000 so no need for them to tip so thanks for some facts.

 

They sure do count on tips... that IS basically their income... cutting tips directly impacts them! They are not making huge money by US standards, but they ARE making Really great money by their country standards. They miss their families a lot and the home country but most have made peace with that, they get frustrated but most I know also take great pride in being able to provide for their immediate and extended family and most enjoy the comradre onboard. the cruise line provides a good standard of life (aside from the long hours) and for the most part the crew I know is happy for the opportunity. That is not to say ALL are happy and they DO have complaints, but overall it is not a terrible life onboard.... I found that many of the ones most unhappy and complaining were caused by issues back home tainting their view and not because of the job or cruiseline directly. It really is a like a family onboard and I miss those days sometimes! And like any customer service related job, there are jerks but usually the good ones outweigh the bad! So please be nice and tip your staff!

Edited November 24, 2016 by poz222
Added

[ohioblue52]

I always thought the tips the room stewards get was quite a bit if it really is about $5 per person, per day staying in the cabins and they have 20 - 30 cabins. They also get room/board included in that hourly wage and with the cost of rent and food...that is a huge benefit.

 

This is the jist if it all. If people would take the time and think about it. If a steward and 2 assistants work 30 cabins twice a day for $4.00/p in tips x2 for double occupancy $8/day. That's $240/day divided between 3 is $80/day in tips alone. $80 divided by a 12 hour day = $6.66/hour. 30 cabins in 12 hours is about 25 min/ cabin. Not too bad a wage when you have almost zero expenses. I have a son that works in home health care, he makes $12.50/hour, he has to pay rent, utilities, fuel and vehicle expense, insurance, food and so on.

[StolidCruiser]

This is the jist if it all. If people would take the time and think about it. If a steward and 2 assistants work 30 cabins twice a day for $4.00/p in tips x2 for double occupancy $8/day. That's $240/day divided between 3 is $80/day in tips alone. $80 divided by a 12 hour day = $6.66/hour. 30 cabins in 12 hours is about 25 min/ cabin. Not too bad a wage when you have almost zero expenses. I have a son that works in home health care, he makes $12.50/hour, he has to pay rent, utilities, fuel and vehicle expense, insurance, food and so on.

 

Perhaps you or your son should sign up for the job considering its not too bad a wage (by your calculation).

[ohioblue52]

Perhaps you or your son should sign up for the job considering its not too bad a wage (by your calculation).

 

He has considered it, but has never even seen the ocean let alone been on a ship. It is a big step to leave the security of home and family and go to sea for most Americans.

[ohioblue52]

I wonder what others would consider to be a fair wage for say room steward or waiter?

[jimbo5544]

This is the jist if it all. If people would take the time and think about it. If a steward and 2 assistants work 30 cabins twice a day for $4.00/p in tips x2 for double occupancy $8/day. That's $240/day divided between 3 is $80/day in tips alone. $80 divided by a 12 hour day = $6.66/hour. 30 cabins in 12 hours is about 25 min/ cabin. Not too bad a wage when you have almost zero expenses. I have a son that works in home health care, he makes $12.50/hour, he has to pay rent, utilities, fuel and vehicle expense, insurance, food and so on.

 

 

I see many holes in your math....or logic (not about your son).

 

 

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[sparks1093]

He has considered it, but has never even seen the ocean let alone been on a ship. It is a big step to leave the security of home and family and go to sea for most Americans.

 

Fortunately enough do that the US Navy has enough personnel to stay manned:).

[sparks1093]

I wonder what others would consider to be a fair wage for say room steward or waiter?

 

It doesn't matter what we thing as long as they think it's fair. (And FWIW I wouldn't do their job for the salary I make.)