Rhine water levels 2018 and similar topics

[sjde]

 Hmmm... we are in Wertheim today, Rudesheim tomorrow and they haven't said we’d have any disruptions heading to Koblenz & Düsseldorf.

[notamermaid]

10 minutes ago, sjde said:

 Hmmm... we are in Wertheim today, Rudesheim tomorrow and they haven't said we’d have any disruptions heading to Koblenz & Düsseldorf.

Oh, please remind me, my memory. Which ship are you on? From Wertheim you have a couple more days to go before entering the Rhine, I believe. Are you scheduled to be in Rüdesheim Saturday morning?

 

notamermaid

 

[sjde]

The Johann Strauss, 135 m , I believe. 

Rudesheim tomorrow. Maybe they don't want to say anything yet, hoping for rain. 

[notamermaid]

Ah, thanks, I remember now. I had looked this up, I thought it was a shorter ship. The Johann Strauss has been refurbished and is sailing under Swiss flag. Both company and marinetraffic give the length at 110m. The last signal came from your docking place at Wertheim only a few minutes ago. So it is the right ship in the right place at a favourable length. Sounds very promising, no wonder they do not expect interruptions.

 

Have a great time.

 

notamermaid

 

[sjde]

On a river cruise ship site, it gave the length as 135 m. 

[peasmith]

12 hours ago, paia40 said:

27NOV2018

We received email from viking todayabout our upcoming cruise on VIKING TIALFI 12-15-2018

 

Dear Viking Guest,

Thank you for choosing Viking for your upcoming European voyage. This message is to advise you regarding low water levels on the Rhine River that will likely impact your itinerary.

As this summer has been unusually dry, many European rivers have reached historically low levels. Unlike ocean sailing, as little as an inch or two determines whether navigation is possible, and river levels have been changing quickly throughout the season. Our nautical team continues to monitor the river levels closely to determine if and how your cruise may be affected.

At this time, we expect to enact what we call a mid-cruise "ship swap" part way through your itinerary to bypass the affected area. Because Viking operates identical ships traveling in opposite directions along the river, we are able to transfer you by motorcoach from your ship to an identical sister ship further along the river. There, you can resume your itinerary with minimal impact.

If water levels remain low, we may also need to dock in alternate locations where our regular docking locations are adversely affected by the conditions to ensure you are able to see the sights you came to see.

While we strive to give you as much information regarding how your cruise may be impacted ahead of time, river conditions today may be very different than on the day you pass through the affected area. This means we cannot confirm exact details until closer to departure, or even possibly after.

Rest assured, we have considerable experience in navigating situations like this and we are confident you will enjoy your journey with us, despite the low water conditions.

Should you have any questions regarding your cruise before your departure, please contact Customer Relations at customerrelations@vikingcruises.com

We look forward to welcoming you on board and wish you a wonderful journey.

Sincerely,

Viking

 

Us too for the Mani on the 14th December

 

[notamermaid]

7 minutes ago, peasmith said:

Us too for the Mani on the 14th December

Sounds like the Viking Tialfi will be your ship to swap to. Whichever it will be a swap does not sound to bad.

 

Jimmy_Buffett is pleased with the way it was handled:

15 hours ago, Jimmy_Buffett said:

It was a fine meal aboard the Rhine Star, salad, chicken breat and fries, lemon pie,all the beer or wine and wine and Gluvine,warm inside,too warm maybe heated boat, 2 or 3 hour cruise. Viking did a great job today.

 

Sounds really nice, better than I thought it would be. Well, catering differs a little from one boat to another. This is the Rhein Star: https://roesslerlinie.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/RheinStar-Ansichten.pdf

 

notamermaid

 

[hbr777]

4 hours ago, notamermaid said:

Makes me wonder even more why Ama is not even going into Germany. Yup, I am puzzled by that still, to the point of annoyance.

Me, too notamermaid.

Here's what I wonder - the AmaPrima and the AmaKristina are the two ships "stuck" on the Amsterdam side. The Prima has been doing Amsterdam to Amsterdam cruises, and the Kristina only goes as far as Rotterdam. Is it that they cannot get any closer to Germany due how the canals/rivers connect?  

[notamermaid]

The situation today. Hardly any change to yesterday. Weather forecast is a mix of temperatures, perhaps a little on the warm side for this time of year, overall no real frost, hardly any snow. Most precipitation will be rain. Not too much of it, I am afraid. Still, three consecutive days of rain over most of the Rhine catchment area is the best we have had for a while.

 

Well, with the levels this low the river will still struggle to get the figures up by more than an inch and have it stay that way so that sailing can commence for the 135m ships and the gorge to remain open for them. You probably guessed it, it does not look good.

 

With Viking sending out the message more than 14 days before the cruise I think it is clear that we are not really heading towards good figures.

 

Here goes: Maxau 329cm, Kaub 29cm, Koblenz 27cm.

 

Do you remember when in October we were stunned to read that the river at Kaub had fallen below the up to then lowest river level ever recorded? This month we have already been below that figure (35cm) for eight consecutive days. No change is anticipated at Kaub before Sunday.

 

Here is an (updated?) article from the New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/28/travel/european-river-cruises-low-water-cancel.html

 

A comment on this: the line "...making passage difficult for some cruise ships." is probably an understatement, especially when you look at the American market that is now served mostly by 135m ships. And the European market is heading that way, 135m with Arosa, Riviera Travel and Phoenix. CroisiEurope is the only company so far I know of that has clearly stated that they will not upgrade to 135m but stick to (building or refurbishing) 110m ships. That strategy is paying off this year.

 

notamermaid

 

 

[Love2TravelFar]

Thanks Everyone for all the great information. We are also scheduled on the December 8th Viking Basel to Amsterdam. After we got the email, my husband called yesterday to try and get a bit more information. It seems that on the swap day, we may miss the wine tasting and dinner at the monastery which I was really looking forward to.

[notamermaid]

20 minutes ago, hbr777 said:

Me, too notamermaid.

Here's what I wonder - the AmaPrima and the AmaKristina are the two ships "stuck" on the Amsterdam side. The Prima has been doing Amsterdam to Amsterdam cruises, and the Kristina only goes as far as Rotterdam. Is it that they cannot get any closer to Germany due how the canals/rivers connect?  

Interesting thought, and I must admit that I am not very familiar with the canal situation in the Netherlands. But in general they are deep-ish and Rotterdam to Emmerich is such an important waterway that the authorities will make sure everything is in order as much as possible. Ships certainly do get into Germany from Rotterdam, not just small barges. Two ships almost in tow, the Arosa Aqua and the Arosa Brava, are currently near Emmerich having sailed from Rotterdam. Both are 135m long. You can track them on marinetraffic, you need to zoom in well as at first they appear as only one marker. Their destination is Duisburg. With a destination Duisburg they could well be travelling empty. We will know for sure if they stop there for more than 48 hours. On a normal itinerary they will have Düsseldorf and or Cologne. As they also offer shorter than seven day cruises they could have either city as their disembarkation port for the possibly currently running cruise.

 

notamermaid

 

[peasmith]

40 minutes ago, notamermaid said:

Sounds like the Viking Tialfi will be your ship to swap to. Whichever it will be a swap does not sound to bad.

 

Jimmy_Buffett is pleased with the way it was handled:

 

Sounds really nice, better than I thought it would be. Well, catering differs a little from one boat to another. This is the Rhein Star: https://roesslerlinie.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/RheinStar-Ansichten.pdf

 

notamermaid

I don't think the Mani has moved since the 9th November according to cruisemapper but may be mistaken? It will all be a new experience for us - perhaps I should send the rain we have here in Cambridge today over!

 

The Rhein Star looks ok - dining area looks very regimental though! Does anyone know how long we are on this boat for and where it takes us from or to?

 

 

 

 

[Philandher]

21 minutes ago, notamermaid said:

The situation today. Hardly any change to yesterday. Weather forecast is a mix of temperatures, perhaps a little on the warm side for this time of year, overall no real frost, hardly any snow. Most precipitation will be rain. Not too much of it, I am afraid. Still, three consecutive days of rain over most of the Rhine catchment area is the best we have had for a while.

 

Well, with the levels this low the river will still struggle to get the figures up by more than an inch and have it stay that way so that sailing can commence for the 135m ships and the gorge to remain open for them. You probably guessed it, it does not look good.

 

With Viking sending out the message more than 14 days before the cruise I think it is clear that we are not really heading towards good figures.

 

Here goes: Maxau 329cm, Kaub 29cm, Koblenz 27cm.

 

Do you remember when in October we were stunned to read that the river at Kaub had fallen below the up to then lowest river level ever recorded? This month we have already been below that figure (35cm) for eight consecutive days. No change is anticipated at Kaub before Sunday.

 

Here is an (updated?) article from the New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/28/travel/european-river-cruises-low-water-cancel.html

 

A comment on this: the line "...making passage difficult for some cruise ships." is probably an understatement, especially when you look at the American market that is now served mostly by 135m ships. And the European market is heading that way, 135m with Arosa, Riviera Travel and Phoenix. CroisiEurope is the only company so far I know of that has clearly stated that they will not upgrade to 135m but stick to (building or refurbishing) 110m ships. That strategy is paying off this year.

 

notamermaid

 

 

Notamermaid (you'd probably struggle if you were at the moment!!),

What is the rainfall catchment area that specifically impacts on the Rhine Gorge and Kaub?

Thanks,

Philandher

[notamermaid]

1 minute ago, peasmith said:

I don't think the Mani has moved since the 9th November according to cruisemapper but may be mistaken? It will all be a new experience for us - perhaps I should send the rain we have here in Cambridge today over!

 

The Rhein Star looks ok - dining area looks very regimental though! Does anyone know how long we are on this boat for and where it takes us from or to?

 

 

 

 

Perhaps not the Mani, then. Rain, please yes, send some over. I just posted the sample photos for hiring the ship during events. It could look different for you. In fact, Viking might have another boat for you (supply - demand). There are more than ten to choose from among four or five companies. Apart from the ones that are already occupied with Christmas market (evening) trips in Cologne and the other major towns and cannot be chartered. Viking will decide according to the needs of their time frame how long your excursion boat trip will be. It can be between one and six hours, six hours if you want to see most of the castles. I have read mostly two to four hours mentioned. Which makes sense to me: time between breakfast and lunch, or over lunch, or between lunch and dinner. I would think more than four hours would not work well. But that is up to Viking. I am confident it will be a nice experience.

 

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

3 minutes ago, Philandher said:

Notamermaid (you'd probably struggle if you were at the moment!!),

What is the rainfall catchment area that specifically impacts on the Rhine Gorge and Kaub?

Thanks,

Philandher

Not much swimming possible for the maids in the river, you are right, must watch our tail.

 

Here is the Rhine catchment area:

 

The whole area is highlighted. For the Rhine gorge follow the map where it says Upper Rhine. You hit the two bends, the first is just after Mainz, the second is just after Rüdesheim where the Middle Rhine starts. That is the start of the gorge as well. Between the words Middle and Rhine the Moselle and the Lahn mark the end of the gorge. Both rivers already have taken water away from the gorge as they have small rivers draining into them rather than giving it into the gorge. The Main is the last large tributary to the Rhine before the gorge. It comes from the East. For the rain to benefit the Rhine gorge more needs to fall on the Eastern side of the river than on the western side as the Vosges mountains (west of Strasbourg) transport much of the water to the Moselle and the Saar rather than the Rhine.

 

This is the map taken from wikipedia. I could not find a better one to demonstrate this. I hope you can follow along with my explanation.

 

notamermaid

 

[Philandher]

9 minutes ago, notamermaid said:

Not much swimming possible for the maids in the river, you are right, must watch our tail.

 

Here is the Rhine catchment area:

 

The whole area is highlighted. For the Rhine gorge follow the map where it says Upper Rhine. You hit the two bends, the first is just after Mainz, the second is just after Rüdesheim where the Middle Rhine starts. That is the start of the gorge as well. Between the words Middle and Rhine the Moselle and the Lahn mark the end of the gorge. Both rivers already have taken water away from the gorge as they have small rivers draining into them rather than giving it into the gorge. The Main is the last large tributary to the Rhine before the gorge. It comes from the East. For the rain to benefit the Rhine gorge more needs to fall on the Eastern side of the river than on the western side as the Vosges mountains (west of Strasbourg) transport much of the water to the Moselle and the Saar rather than the Rhine.

 

This is the map taken from wikipedia. I could not find a better one to demonstrate this. I hope you can follow along with my explanation.

 

notamermaid

 

Thanks Notamermaid, that's much appreciated. Just one other request, what levels are required at Kaub to enable the135m vessels to navigate through the gorge?

[pvalent58]

20 hours ago, odie714 said:

Pete,

 

Thank you for the reply.  I'll look at the FB page.  Also, we received an email from Scenic today, it went to our spam folder. Please check yours if you have not received an update.

 

Deb

Yes, received the email and opted for the refund.   We’ll do our own land itinerary.  Too much uncertainty in the river.  

[DougK]

On 11/26/2018 at 4:18 PM, odie714 said:

Hello,

 

Has anyone else cruised with Scenic? There has been conflicting information from them with regards to the dress code for dinner.  We were told back in May from a Scenic representative that the welcome and farewell dinner are "fancier" but not formal.  No jacket or tie required for men.  Now, I've just received my e-documents and the dress code is much different.  Jacket and tie and more formal for women for welcome and farewell dinners and dressed casual for other nights.

 

I can't speak for the Christmas Market cruise, but jacket and tie (or formal women's wear) were definitely not required on the cruise we took on Scenic this past September. Some people dress fancier for a couple of events, but not all do and I don't think anybody feels out of place. I don't recall seeing many jackets, and I certainly didn't wear one. Just ignore what the e-documents say about dress.

[sjde]

So in preparation for the Rhine Gorge tomorrow , our   cruise director asked us to
use lots of water- “take 3 showers”- to lighten our load. She said we might hear scraping- which is normal even when river isn’t low. 

 

Ship draft is 1.7 meters. The Rhine is normally 3-4 m. deep. The Rhine Gorge is the deepest part of Rhine . 

[notamermaid]

5 hours ago, Philandher said:

Thanks Notamermaid, that's much appreciated. Just one other request, what levels are required at Kaub to enable the135m vessels to navigate through the gorge?

 

It is not clear and I cannot give a straightforward answer. I explained it a while back and it is hard to believe that this situation has been going on for so long now. My reply to the question by toseaornottosea is dated 9 September, but the whole thing started at the end of July! So hear is the post:

 

Quote:

 

toseaornottosea said:

Notamermaid, and others, I'm pretty sure this has already been discussed on this thread but please be kind enough to comment again. We will be on the Viking Rhine River Getaway Amsterdam to Basel departing Amsterdam in late September. This will be our first river cruise and we hope it will be a river cruise and not a coach tour. What are the minimum water levels that will allow Viking to cruise the Rhine and not have to swap ships and/or revert to coaches? Is there a website where can I find Rhine water levels at the most important/critical measuring stations? I welcome any information you can provide and I thank you in advance for your advice and guidance.

 

The short answer: is we do not know. Viking have never said explicitly on this board - at least since I have been around here in 2013 - at which point they cannot sail anymore. The long answer is, we do not know but can get close to a figure if we try to put this year's situation in a time frame and compare it to the water levels. I shall not speak for any company here as I could get into real trouble, as you can imagine, and can only guide you into a direction. I am sure you have followed this thread along a bit and read that Viking (and all the other companies) made such decisions sometimes at very short notice. Now without further ado and guarantee on my behalf, let us look back.

 

During the low water situation in 2015 we were able to establish that problems start around the river level mark 90cm at Kaub. During November of that year the level at Koblenz fell to 51cm at which point ship swaps and excursion boat substitutes were happening, a level we reached this year on 24 August. On 29 July of this year in post #117 I reported that the river level at Kaub had fallen to 86cm. On 31 July in post #125 I reported that Kaub had fallen to 83cm. I had not checked the website of Viking by then. But on 1 August I did and reported the same day in post #126 that Viking had updated their website (with a notice about the low levels on the Rhine). Kaub fell further but two Viking ships still made it through the Rhine gorge on 3 August. Later in August, when both Kaub and Koblenz were below their respective markers for the navigation channel depth (they happen to be both 78cm) the cruisers reported of ship swaps.

 

I hope this helps.

 

As regards the website for river levels. Here is the map again, this time through a different website, meaning you have an English legend underneath the map: https://www.bafg.de/EN/06_Info_Service/01_WaterLevels/waterlevels_node.html

 

As I write river levels are Maxau 397cm, Kaub 90cm, Koblenz 97cm.

 

notamermaid

 

End quote

 

 

We are currently at figures below 40cm at Kaub and a rise above that is not yet in the forecast or prediction. Rain is forecast for Sunday and for next week of course. We have had drizzle here today. For about two hours only. It might have been a bit more in the Upper Rhine valley.

 

notamermaid

 

 

 

 

[Valley Girl of VA]

For those on the AMAPrime or have taken her the last few weeks, were you notified before the cruise that you could have options?  I'm being told that they told everyone their options - either cancellation without penalty or compensation if you take the cruise.  Wondering if they are telling me the truth.

 

 

[Tedescokid1]

I got a canned response from them about our Dec cruise that they are taking it day by day. I haven't seen or heard from any AMA cruisers that we are being offered a choice. i did see that those on board have been told after the cruise they will receive some type of offer of compensation. 

[Philandher]

27 minutes ago, notamermaid said:

 

It is not clear and I cannot give a straightforward answer. I explained it a while back and it is hard to believe that this situation has been going on for so long now. My reply to the question by toseaornottosea is dated 9 September, but the whole thing started at the end of July! So hear is the post:

 

Quote:

 

 

The short answer: is we do not know. Viking have never said explicitly on this board - at least since I have been around here in 2013 - at which point they cannot sail anymore. The long answer is, we do not know but can get close to a figure if we try to put this year's situation in a time frame and compare it to the water levels. I shall not speak for any company here as I could get into real trouble, as you can imagine, and can only guide you into a direction. I am sure you have followed this thread along a bit and read that Viking (and all the other companies) made such decisions sometimes at very short notice. Now without further ado and guarantee on my behalf, let us look back.

 

During the low water situation in 2015 we were able to establish that problems start around the river level mark 90cm at Kaub. During November of that year the level at Koblenz fell to 51cm at which point ship swaps and excursion boat substitutes were happening, a level we reached this year on 24 August. On 29 July of this year in post #117 I reported that the river level at Kaub had fallen to 86cm. On 31 July in post #125 I reported that Kaub had fallen to 83cm. I had not checked the website of Viking by then. But on 1 August I did and reported the same day in post #126 that Viking had updated their website (with a notice about the low levels on the Rhine). Kaub fell further but two Viking ships still made it through the Rhine gorge on 3 August. Later in August, when both Kaub and Koblenz were below their respective markers for the navigation channel depth (they happen to be both 78cm) the cruisers reported of ship swaps.

 

I hope this helps.

 

As regards the website for river levels. Here is the map again, this time through a different website, meaning you have an English legend underneath the map: https://www.bafg.de/EN/06_Info_Service/01_WaterLevels/waterlevels_node.html

 

As I write river levels are Maxau 397cm, Kaub 90cm, Koblenz 97cm.

 

notamermaid

 

End quote

 

 

We are currently at figures below 40cm at Kaub and a rise above that is not yet in the forecast or prediction. Rain is forecast for Sunday and for next week of course. We have had drizzle here today. For about two hours only. It might have been a bit more in the Upper Rhine valley.

 

notamermaid

 

 

 

 

Thanks again and sorry to be a pain!!

[Host Jazzbeau]

1 hour ago, sjde said:

So in preparation for the Rhine Gorge tomorrow , our   cruise director asked us to
use lots of water- “take 3 showers”- to lighten our load. She said we might hear scraping- which is normal even when river isn’t low. 

 

Ship draft is 1.7 meters. The Rhine is normally 3-4 m. deep. The Rhine Gorge is the deepest part of Rhine . 

 

Sorry, can't read.  Font too big to fit on screen.

[orchidj5]

24 minutes ago, Tedescokid1 said:

I got a canned response from them about our Dec cruise that they are taking it day by day. I haven't seen or heard from any AMA cruisers that we are being offered a choice. i did see that those on board have been told after the cruise they will receive some type of offer of compensation. 

  We are on the 10 December Amastella-i inquired of my Travel agent when she sent my documents ( they were emailed to her-she printed them as well as vouchers and information for other aspects of our trip since we have independently booked air and hotels before and after). She said she had not as of yet received any notice of deviation or anything else but that AMA would do the best they could make it a positive experience.  About 5 days ago I got an email about downloading the AMA app which shows itinerary  and excursions and what not-that is still showing us having the booked itinerary -we have not received any information from AMA on deviation at this time.