Ruby Princess - Special Inquiry - Evidence To Date

[Cruisegroover]

16 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

Not sure about spelling but I heard..Londero, Anderson, Williams, Lake and Waters.  If you plan to review recordings.

Thanks yes Mr Londero was one of the passengers who was taken off the ship by ambulance and was interviewed on TV. 

[BRANDEE]

12 minutes ago, Cruisegroover said:

My best friend was on Ovation that returned on 18 March after leaving Sydney on 12 March. They were advised NSW Health didn't require them to self isolate as they had not got off the ship having just sailed around in circles waiting to come back to Sydney after NZ closed the ports before they got there. OPT was busy that week with unscheduled returns and Voyager come in the morning and Ovation in the afternoon.

 

A Canadian man then reported tested positive  My friend had a phone call from Royal HQ in Florida in the early hours of the 22nd to tell her to self isolate. She also had emails from NSW Health. 

 

No doubt there are internal government reports about the whole response to the cruiseships in March that could only be made available through the Freedom of Information Act if someone requested them and if the government agreed to them being released.

 

On my 15 hours flight coming home on the evening of Mar 19, I sat with a crew member of the Ovation. She was going home to a family reunion .

 

[BRANDEE]

10 minutes ago, Cruisegroover said:

Thanks yes Mr Londero was one of the passengers who was taken off the ship by ambulance and was interviewed on TV. 

Glad to hear he survived!

[Cyrix400]

Another major error of Health NSW, following detailed examination today (Thur 18 Jun) of Dr McAnulty, Executive Director, Health Protection NSW,    (The Commissioner is doing his homework before questioning the witnesses and he doesn't miss anything).

 

Headline from Sydney Morning Herald (pay wall)

Old health protocols were used to clear Ruby Princess, inquiry hears

Assessment protocols which allowed the COVID-carrying Ruby Princess cruise ship to enter Sydney should have already been scrapped and re-written, a senior NSW Health official says.

 

link to the free :

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-18/nsw-coronavirus-ruby-princess-government-process-was-outdated/12368902             Article headed:

Top NSW Health official admits Ruby Princess should not have been deemed 'low risk' for coronavirus       Quote: 

 "

A top NSW Health official has told an inquiry the assessment process that deemed the Ruby Princess "low risk" was outdated and should have been scrapped before the ship docked"

Deals with the changing definition of suspected covid symptoms, not taken into account during 19 March assessment of Ruby Princess

[Porky55]

13 hours ago, BRANDEE said:

Not sure about spelling but I heard..Londero, Anderson, Williams, Lake and Waters.  If you plan to review recordings.

If I was one of these passengers I would be very anxious about my upcoming interview with Commissioner Bret Walker.
While ever you stay with facts you will be fine but of course this is a very emotional subject (as on this forum) and it will be difficult 🤔

 

[Cyrix400]

IN FAIRNESS TO CARNIVAL........CLARIFICATION

18 hours ago, Cyrix400 said:

 

In light of the Diamond Princess Japan Covid problems in Feb 2020, no evidence appears to have emerged to date at the  Roby Princess Inquiry that Carnival HQ was greatly concerned  afterwards with updating  the cruise ships  with the  changing  information about Covid 19. (Ruby Princess received no updates from HO)

 

 

 

Firstly, YES - Carnival was passing on to pax  ALL the evolving information and requirements  from NSW Health, during the cruise commencing 8 March and the prior one.

 

But - NO - the Ruby Ship Doctor gave evidence that she was NOT  getting any other, general updates  about Covid from anyone at the Carnival HQ, including their Chief Medical Officer, following Feb 2020 problems with Diamond Princess and until 19 March.   

[christodan]

1 hour ago, Cyrix400 said:

But - NO - the Ruby Ship Doctor gave evidence that she was NOT  getting any other, general updates  about Covid from anyone at the Carnival HQ, including their Chief Medical Officer, following Feb 2020 problems with Diamond Princess and until 19 March.   

I can't see a problem with that. Different country different protocols. I can't see Carnival watching what's happening in Japan and overriding what the local health authorities are telling them to do. It's probably against some law, anyway. Imagine, for example if they told EVERYONE to self isolate on the ship, they would probably be accused of taking people's liberties away, if NSW Health did not approve it.

[BRANDEE]

3 hours ago, Porky55 said:

If I was one of these passengers I would be very anxious about my upcoming interview with Commissioner Bret Walker.
While ever you stay with facts you will be fine but of course this is a very emotional subject (as on this forum) and it will be difficult 🤔

 

As the inquiry continues, Commissioner Walker is getting less patient with the witnesses who..hem and haw..their answers.  I would not want to be questioned by him..his long pauses would rattle me..but he is being extremely thorough.

[OzKiwiJJ]

2 hours ago, christodan said:

I can't see a problem with that. Different country different protocols. I can't see Carnival watching what's happening in Japan and overriding what the local health authorities are telling them to do. It's probably against some law, anyway. Imagine, for example if they told EVERYONE to self isolate on the ship, they would probably be accused of taking people's liberties away, if NSW Health did not approve it.

Princess would have copped a lot of flack whatever they did. 

 

Imagine Ms Double-Transplant's reaction if she'd been told she couldn't do whatever she wanted around the ship.

[mr walker]

2 hours ago, christodan said:

I can't see a problem with that. Different country different protocols. I can't see Carnival watching what's happening in Japan and overriding what the local health authorities are telling them to do. It's probably against some law, anyway. Imagine, for example if they told EVERYONE to self isolate on the ship, they would probably be accused of taking people's liberties away, if NSW Health did not approve it.

I can see a problem with the ship not getting the updated protocols from NSW Health. When Mr Mifsud was asked about this he advised it was not his job, and, further pressed, advised that it would be the responsibility of the Carnival Health & Safety (?) Dept in USA. He also made some remarks about a local group in Chatswood, led by the P&O VP that perhaps would have some involvement.

An issue seems to be that it was fine for NSW Health to 'publish' new documents, but there seemed no process to ensure that they got to where they needed to go. Likely systemic failings from both Carnival & NSW Health.

Lessons will be learned and requirements tightened, but addressing the culture within these organisations will be difficult. 

 

Sorry I meant to say that I agree that Princess holding the passengers onboard without instructions from NSW Health to do so would have created problems. Mr Mifsud did make mention of that.

Edited June 18, 2020 by mr walker

[Cyrix400]

Evidence today - the summary of two pax witnesses Mr Lake and Mr Londero - see link attached.

Note (not in the report) that Mr and Mrs Londero were quite complimentary of the Princess medical care ('they took good care of us') and that Mrs emailed Ruby doctor expressing her thanks for the care, a few days after arrival/ recovery. 

 

Another witness, Mr Anderson, felt very well the  whole cruise and started feel ill a few days after arrival. He had covid, his wife did not. Cruise line was particular re hand washing, he said, but servers did not wear masks.

Some witnesses did not read health leaflets placed under their door - some did not hear on board announcements re medical care if feeling unwell, some said it was the general announcement re medical care as on other cruises re noro.

Mr Walters, from North West Tasmania, was asked by the Sydney  post-cruise hotel if came from the cruise ship - then was told to stay in the room.

 

Interesting points made by the last  pax witness Mrs Williams. Went to see   the ship doctor with sore throat, chills, headache. Saw a male nurse - no suggestion to see the doctor.  Says she did not receive any advice.
She decided to self-quarantee in her cabin on her own initiative, as was concerned with not infecting others.

On disembarkation day she  had some difficulty getting a mask from the nurse - had to ask the nurse three of four times and previously had to 'talk the nurse into' taking her temperature as she was told there was no need for it. She was not formally aware of the Border Force requirement to self isolate, but decided to stay at home on arrival, as she did not want to be responsible for spreading covid to anyone else.

 

Not clear, but it seems some more witnesses on Monday will be pax from USA.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-19/coronavirus-ruby-princess-woman-told-to-isolate-after-she-died/12373930

Coronavirus patient told to isolate two days after she died, Ruby Princess inquiry hears

  "  A passenger on board the Ruby Princess whose wife contracted coronavirus says NSW Health rang and asked if she was in isolation two days after she died."

 

 

 

[Cruisegroover]

1 hour ago, Cyrix400 said:

Evidence today - the summary of two pax witnesses Mr Lake and Mr Londero - see link attached.

Note (not in the report) that Mr and Mrs Londero were quite complimentary of the Princess medical care ('they took good care of us') and that Mrs emailed Ruby doctor expressing her thanks for the care, a few days after arrival/ recovery. 

 

Another witness, Mr Anderson, felt very well the  whole cruise and started feel ill a few days after arrival. He had covid, his wife did not. Cruise line was particular re hand washing, he said, but servers did not wear masks.

Some witnesses did not read health leaflets placed under their door - some did not hear on board announcements re medical care if feeling unwell, some said it was the general announcement re medical care as on other cruises re noro.

Mr Walters, from North West Tasmania, was asked by the Sydney  post-cruise hotel if came from the cruise ship - then was told to stay in the room.

 

Interesting points made by the last  pax witness Mrs Williams. Went to see   the ship doctor with sore throat, chills, headache. Saw a male nurse - no suggestion to see the doctor.  Says she did not receive any advice.
She decided to self-quarantee in her cabin on her own initiative, as was concerned with not infecting others.

On disembarkation day she  had some difficulty getting a mask from the nurse - had to ask the nurse three of four times and previously had to 'talk the nurse into' taking her temperature as she was told there was no need for it. She was not formally aware of the Border Force requirement to self isolate, but decided to stay at home on arrival, as she did not want to be responsible for spreading covid to anyone else.

 

Not clear, but it seems some more witnesses on Monday will be pax from USA.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-19/coronavirus-ruby-princess-woman-told-to-isolate-after-she-died/12373930

Coronavirus patient told to isolate two days after she died, Ruby Princess inquiry hears

 

  "  A passenger on board the Ruby Princess whose wife contracted coronavirus says NSW Health rang and asked if she was in isolation two days after she died."

 

 

 

Thanks for that summary. I did listen and will read the transcript when available as I found it to be very interesting on each person had to say. I can't click on your see link attached but I am not that great at computers.

 

Mr Londero was on 60 Minutes 3 May talking of his experiences. I noted that he said Princess refunded his medical costs around 24 April and he was able to claim an excess on his travel insurance (words to that effect so correct me if I am wrong there) but 60 Minutes stated he had not seen a cent of those expenses. Gee 60 Minutes never let the facts get in the way of a good story could have easily been edited before airing the story given his interview probably took place a few weeks before.

 

Mr Walters appeared on a 7 News story when his wife was still in ICU and he said he hadn't seen her for 30 days and his wedding anniversary was coming up. That story was factual and quite sad actually to see his anguish. 

 

 

 

 

[robncruise]

It is incomprehensible that Mrs Williams states she  had no "formal" notification from Border Force authorities to self isolate.  I received at least 5 maybe 6 leaflets from both Australian Border Force and NSW Health in the last few days prior to arrival in Sydney .( I kept them all as well as the info Princess provided when we embarked on March 8 )   All gave explicit instructions to self isolate for 14 days on arrival whether at home or in a hotel for international travellers with a later departure date.  This was also conveyed verbally by some official at the queue when leaving the terminal.   

[OzKiwiJJ]

Not incomprehensible, robncruise. Some people don't even look at the notices they get given, they just bin them. Possibly part of that is due to too many effin' Effy (and other) junk notices. 

 

It might help if the cabin stewards put them on the pillows under the chocolates, rather than with the Patters.

 

I'm like you, though, after separating out the junk notices, I keep every Patter and notice we are given on a cruise and file them after reading them.

[BRANDEE]

6 hours ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

Not incomprehensible, robncruise. Some people don't even look at the notices they get given, they just bin them. Possibly part of that is due to too many effin' Effy (and other) junk notices. 

 

It might help if the cabin stewards put them on the pillows under the chocolates, rather than with the Patters.

 

I'm like you, though, after separating out the junk notices, I keep every Patter and notice we are given on a cruise and file them after reading them.

Our cabin steward put the notices on the bed.  We started to joke about her leaving my husband his daily "love" notes.  I kept 9 of them.  3 each from Princess, Australian Border Force and Department of Health.  The Effy and spa treatment specials went right to the bin.  Looking back at them today, I actually checked with a pen..the paragraphs directed at international passengers.  I have to agree with robincruise..there was too much to claim I got nothing. 

 

Still hoping double transplant is giving testimony..need something to laugh about.   

 

It was so sad to hear Mr. Lake's story..going on vacation and having your wife died as a result is heartbreaking.

[Cyrix400]

12 hours ago, Cruisegroover said:

Thanks for that summary. I did listen and will read the transcript when available as I found it to be very interesting on each person had to say. I can't click on your see link attached but I am not that great at computers.

 

Mr Londero was on 60 Minutes 3 May talking of his experiences. I noted that he said Princess refunded his medical costs around 24 April and he was able to claim an excess on his travel insurance (words to that effect so correct me if I am wrong there) but 60 Minutes stated he had not seen a cent of those expenses. Gee 60 Minutes never let the facts get in the way of a good story could have easily been edited before airing the story given his interview probably took place a few weeks before.

 

Mr Walters appeared on a 7 News story when his wife was still in ICU and he said he hadn't seen her for 30 days and his wedding anniversary was coming up. That story was factual and quite sad actually to see his anguish. 

 

 

 

 

As I recall it, Mr Londero was charged about $8000 for on board med treatment - he wasn't unduly surprised as he knew the medical expenses on board are expensive.  He had to  transfer some money from his other account to his credit card, so that amount could be charged before he left the ship.

He got most of it re-imbursed by his insurance company, and Princess refunded his excess. He was happy with this.

 

Re LINK - if you have trouble to access the link from my previous response, copy it to your browser and try again - should work.

 

[Cyrix400]

"NSW lays blame for Ruby Princess on feds"

I've just come across this interesting summary (about week old) from the evidence given by Dr Tobin NSW health concerning the Ruby Princess report. 

With acknowledgement to the Saturday Paper. (pay wall)  The first few paragraphs are:

https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2020/06/13/nsw-lays-blame-ruby-princess-feds/15919704009963

"   The New South Wales government prepared a confidential report congratulating itself on how it managed the March 19 arrival of the Ruby Princess cruise ship, which was responsible for the largest single outbreak of Covid-19 in Australia, including 26 deaths here and overseas.

 

The undated and unattributed report, which was tendered into evidence at the Ruby Princess inquiry this week, appears to blame the federal government for what became at least 1000 Covid-19 cases. It defends the NSW Health assessment process that designated the ship as “low risk” ahead of it docking in Sydney.

 

It says if officials had kept passengers aboard longer instead of letting them disembark and travel home to self-isolate, the infection rate would have been worse.

 

This is despite evidence that officials inconsistently applied their own coronavirus-specific protocol, leading to passengers disembarking before the results of Covid-19 testing were known.

The nine-page document says the process “acknowledged there is no ‘no-risk’ setting for Covid-19 but balanced the level of risk against the benefit of removing passengers from a cruise ship on which the virus could be circulating”.

 

Grilling NSW chief biosecurity officer Dr Sean Tobin on Wednesday, commissioner Bret Walker, SC, condemned the report as “spin”. Walker said the sentence about balancing risk contradicted the sworn evidence Tobin had given, which stated there was no public health benefit in letting passengers disembark."

[Porky55]

19 hours ago, Cyrix400 said:

Interesting points made by the last  pax witness Mrs Williams. Went to see   the ship doctor with sore throat, chills, headache. Saw a male nurse - no suggestion to see the doctor.  Says she did not receive any advice.
She decided to self-quarantee in her cabin on her own initiative, as was concerned with not infecting others.

I find this passengers evidence most interesting 🤔

Her complaint was that she wasn’t given due care by medical staff (male nurse) but eventually admitted in cross question that she didn’t have money to pay to actually see the Dr on board.
Admitted herself (and don’t blame her for this) was shattered by eventual Covid diagnosis.

[OzKiwiJJ]

11 hours ago, BRANDEE said:

Our cabin steward put the notices on the bed.  We started to joke about her leaving my husband his daily "love" notes.  I kept 9 of them.  3 each from Princess, Australian Border Force and Department of Health.  The Effy and spa treatment specials went right to the bin.  Looking back at them today, I actually checked with a pen..the paragraphs directed at international passengers.  I have to agree with robincruise..there was too much to claim I got nothing. 

 

Were the notices left with the Patters on the bed, which is usual with most notices onboard? 

 

They probably need to be clearly separate, and possibly printed on some sort of coloured paper that makes them stand out. And perhaps the safety briefing should note that important notices about health and safety will be that colour - not that the ignoramuses listen to the safety briefing but still...

[OzKiwiJJ]

1 hour ago, Porky55 said:

I find this passengers evidence most interesting 🤔

Her complaint was that she wasn’t given due care by medical staff (male nurse) but eventually admitted in cross question that she didn’t have money to pay to actually see the Dr on board.
Admitted herself (and don’t blame her for this) was shattered by eventual Covid diagnosis.

From memory, of the one cruise where I had to have treatment at the medical centre, you had to authorise them to charge it to your account before you can see the doctor.

 

One thing I've learnt from travelling is that you need to ensure you have a decent credit limit and enough available credit on at least one card in case of emergencies, and also to cover those blasted holds that take ages to come off.

[BRANDEE]

6 minutes ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

Were the notices left with the Patters on the bed, which is usual with most notices onboard? 

 

They probably need to be clearly separate, and possibly printed on some sort of coloured paper that makes them stand out. And perhaps the safety briefing should note that important notices about health and safety will be that colour - not that the ignoramuses listen to the safety briefing but still...

Our last three cruises have been medallion, so there is no longer a mail box outside your door for mail. 

We also have been blessed with very attentive stewards.  We find our chocolate and time change notices near the pillow. 

Across the bottom of the bed was spread out all the mail for the evening.  The next day Patter , the Effy and Spa specials, invitations to cocktail party,  and last but not least the health notices. 

From the day Princess announced the cease of operations there was at least one notice per night. There is letter head in blue from the Australian Department of Health with the big letters that say..Coronavirus disease (COVID-19).  The ones from the Australian Border Force has a Police medallion on the left side.  It is one of their notices that states for Australians that the 14 day quarantine began at last port.  So that meant Australians only had to isolate for 10 more days.  And the notices from Princess were more about the cruise pause and refund options and apologies.

The only two things slide under out door was our flight confirmation and last copy of the room statement.  That had to be about 2am Mar 19.

The last day of full cruise ..March 18..the announcement about going to the medical center if not feeling good with headaches, fever, flu like symptoms, also said it was at no cost. (The announcement about going to the medical center was also made on the 16th and 17th but I am not sure if it was stated free on those two days..didn't pay attention) Something I never noticed before was sea sickness pills being given out at passengers service..We did have two very rough days and nights returning home.  Than a most calm last sailing day!

 

 

[OzKiwiJJ]

Thanks, BRANDEE. It sounds like the notices would have been hard to miss. We've always had great cabin stewards on Princess but it may also depend on whether you dine late or early. Early diners might return to their cabins before the Patters and notices are distributed. 

 

Oh dear, it sounds like the dreaded Tasman Sea was in one of it's naughty moods for your return crossing. It can be fun at times. 😋 We always carry seasickness meds just in case. 

[By The Bay]

2 hours ago, BRANDEE said:

Something I never noticed before was sea sickness pills being given out at passengers service..We did have two very rough days and nights returning home.

 

I have never seen that before either.

[BRANDEE]

29 minutes ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

Thanks, BRANDEE. It sounds like the notices would have been hard to miss. We've always had great cabin stewards on Princess but it may also depend on whether you dine late or early. Early diners might return to their cabins before the Patters and notices are distributed. 

 

Oh dear, it sounds like the dreaded Tasman Sea was in one of it's naughty moods for your return crossing. It can be fun at times. 😋 We always carry seasickness meds just in case. 

We had one very bad night going south to New Zealand..I was in bed and the roll was so big..I thought the ship was going over.  On the way back we had two nights of rocking and rolling.  The Tasmanian Devil for sure!

[OzKiwiJJ]

6 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

We had one very bad night going south to New Zealand..I was in bed and the roll was so big..I thought the ship was going over.  On the way back we had two nights of rocking and rolling.  The Tasmanian Devil for sure!

We had 5 metre seas one night on one crossing which didn't bother me too much except it movement kept me from falling asleep for quite a while. DH reckons that I ended up sleeping diagonally on the bed that night!

 

On another cruise we apparently went through 6 metre seas in the early hours as we got close to Tasmania. I slept right through it but woke up when we hit calmer waters up the Tasmanian coast. Go figure!