New Princess Sphere class ships?

[Wishing on a star]

A lot of whining and boo-hooing and calling out 'class system' seems to be going on here.

As well as reminiscing about the good old days of cruising.

But, guess what, remember people, only the independently wealthy were able to 'luxury' cruise then.

If people want luxury experiences, then that will cost.  A lot.

People want semi-luxury 'cruising' at carnival prices, and get upset when people who are willing and able to pay more get more.   People want 'luxury' experiences at base fare 'Carnival' prices.  

Everybody wants what they think they should be entitled to.

I think people on both sides should be very careful about pointing fingers.

 

Anybody who pines for that white-glove and lobster service needs to admit what they would really cost them on a current luxury cruise line.

 

Yes, Princess has been guilty of delivering a sub-standard product.

Tiny drab cabins, rock hard old broken down musty beds, minuscule balconies...  on and on.

But, they have gotten a lot of things right, too.

 

I will reserve judgement here until I see more finalized deck plans.

If the Dome, half of an increased size Sanctuary, a nice wake-view area, and adequate dining venues are available to all guests, then that will be a good thing.

[JimmyVWine]

4 minutes ago, cruzsnooze said:

You're assuming the sanctuary hasn't been enlarged to accommodate more passengers. Let's not jump to conclusions until we actually see the ship and read the real time reviews when it starts sailing.

That is true.  But as noted earlier, it seems impossible to stretch the public venues by 23%.  They might be able to find some additional space here and there.  But ships get bigger by going up (hence the 21 decks) not by going out.  Still need to pass through the Panama Canal.  

[SantaFeFan]

3 hours ago, Steelers36 said:

The next one will be Moon Princess, or one of the planets. 

Venus Princess..... 

 

Oops, someone beat me to the comment I made and I would only be plagiarizing them. LOL!

Edited September 16, 2022 by SantaFeFan

[JimmyVWine]

3 minutes ago, Wishing on a star said:

People want semi-luxury 'cruising' at carnival prices, and get upset when people who are willing and able to pay more get more.

I don't think anyone is complaining about people getting more when they pay more.  The concern is that the rest will get less, but pay the same (or more).  Look to "Plus" versus "Premier" and what that did to wine.  No one begrudges the people paying for Premier getting what they are getting.  But it cannot be denied that people who are paying for Plus are getting less than they did before Premier was introduced.  The introduction of the higher end module caused the lesser priced module to be downgraded.  So there  is precedent for the fear. 

[HBCcruiser]

8 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

I don't think anyone is complaining about people getting more when they pay more.  The concern is that the rest will get less, but pay the same (or more).  Look to "Plus" versus "Premier" and what that did to wine.  No one begrudges the people paying for Premier getting what they are getting.  But it cannot be denied that people who are paying for Plus are getting less than they did before Premier was introduced.  The introduction of the higher end module caused the lesser priced module to be downgraded.  So there  is precedent for the fear. 

The change in the wine (and higher-end booze) prices is due to high inflation. All of wine I buy is more expensive now then it was just a few months ago. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by HBCcruiser

[Guest ldtr]

24 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

If the way that Princess treated wine service after the rollout of "Premier" is any indication, in the exclusive dining venues it will be: "Here is tonight's wine list" whereas in the MDRs it will be: "We have red or white." 

Depends upon what they have in a box.

[SantaFeFan]

2 hours ago, Syracusefan44 said:

I hope these 4000+ passenger ships are not a trend for Princess and they build at least one smaller ship with a capacity of 1500 passengers or less.
 

After cruising exclusively with Princess over the past 16 years my wife and I decided to take a look at the itineraries offered by Holland America on the Volendam which has a capacity of 1425 passengers.  We have decided to give them and book a 28 day cruise to the Amazon River.  They also have some fantastic itineraries to French Polynesia, Africa, etc. on this small ship.

 

We love Princess Cruises and hope they don’t become like Royal Caribbean   with a fleet of mega ships. 

 Princess in the recent past has mentioned that newer ships will be larger, never smaller. I have a feeling that this new direction is a John Padgett driven change. After all, he came from Disney Corp where he lead the invention, development and implementation team that was responsible for introducing Disney's Magic Band, Fast Pass+, among other extra cost "innovations".

[JimmyVWine]

3 minutes ago, HBCcruiser said:

The change in the wine (and higher-end booze) prices is due to high inflation. All wine is more expensive then it was just a few months ago. 

A. Not really true. My purchasing has not revealed a noticeable price increase, (though shipping costs have increased, but that isn't really an issue for Carnival Corp.)  And the volume by which Carnival purchases wine (the single biggest purchaser of wine in the world) means that they have strong buying leverage. 

 

B. Price increases have nothing whatsoever to do with Plus being relegated to "Red or White" with no mention of what is being served.  The ship knows what it has in stock and could easily tell the customer.  It's not as if the lower end wines are hiding under someone's bed and they just found a bottle.  The lower end wines are held in greater inventory than the higher end wines.  I promise you that there are more bottles of $6 Sauvignon Blanc on the ship than there are $45 bottles of Chardonnay.  But they have no problem listing the latter on printed lists while they refuse to list the former.  

[HBCcruiser]

Just now, JimmyVWine said:

A. Not really true. My purchasing has not revealed a noticeable price increase, (though shipping costs have increased, but that isn't really an issue for Carnival Corp.)  And the volume by which Carnival purchases wine (the single biggest purchaser of wine in the world) means that they have strong buying leverage. 

 

B. Price increases have nothing whatsoever to do with Plus being relegated to "Red or White" with no mention of what is being served.  The ship knows what it has in stock and could easily tell the customer.  It's not as if the lower end wines are hiding under someone's bed and they just found a bottle.  The lower end wines are held in greater inventory than the higher end wines.  I promise you that there are more bottles of $6 Sauvignon Blanc on the ship than there are $45 bottles of Chardonnay.  But they have no problem listing the latter on printed lists while they refuse to list the former.  

I buy wine all of the time and live in California. Prices are higher. This impacts restaurants as well as the cruise industry. I knew that the increase in booze/wine coming a while ago - and spoke about it in one of the CC threads. It is happening across other cruise lines as well. Cruise lines make money on alcohol sales. They are not in it to break even. 

 

I agree with you regarding the listing of just red/white. They should offer more choices. I think that this allows them to substitute wine choices as needed without having to constantly change the menus. Don't know. On our last cruise in July we were told that they are still dealing with supply chain issues. Hopefully things will improve rather than get worse. 

[sloopsailor]

LOL! It's pretty easy to guess who are wealthy and can afford these new "exclusive" changes being introduced with the new ship. Just read the comments defending them. 😉 

[Guest ldtr]

18 minutes ago, Wishing on a star said:

A lot of whining and boo-hooing and calling out 'class system' seems to be going on here.

As well as reminiscing about the good old days of cruising.

But, guess what, remember people, only the independently wealthy were able to 'luxury' cruise then.

If people want luxury experiences, then that will cost.  A lot.

People want semi-luxury 'cruising' at carnival prices, and get upset when people who are willing and able to pay more get more.   People want 'luxury' experiences at base fare 'Carnival' prices.  

Everybody wants what they think they should be entitled to.

I think people on both sides should be very careful about pointing fingers.

 

Anybody who pines for that white-glove and lobster service needs to admit what they would really cost them on a current luxury cruise line.

 

Yes, Princess has been guilty of delivering a sub-standard product.

Tiny drab cabins, rock hard old broken down musty beds, minuscule balconies...  on and on.

But, they have gotten a lot of things right, too.

 

I will reserve judgement here until I see more finalized deck plans.

If the Dome, half of an increased size Sanctuary, a nice wake-view area, and adequate dining venues are available to all guests, then that will be a good thing.

Actually Princess has been delivering a competitive product that has supported considerable expansion of passenger carrying capacity over the past 10 years.  Up until this point they have resisted the trend by several other lines to move to the ship within a ship concept.  As I stated earlier I do not care if people that pay more get more.  I do have an issue when the change results in the quality of what I get is negatively impacted.  Seen this change before in other lines in each case when the new special dining rooms are put into place, there have been pretty clear impacts on the MDR in the selection, quality and level of service.  This will certainly show up if Princess takes the same route as Celebrity and chooses to retrofit Royal class ships to the same ship within a ship system.  

 

With Celebrity some of those changes were not only the loss of some menu items in the MDR, but also more crowded as portions of the MDR were carved out and new wall built for the more space per passenger new dining spaces.  Staff count in the MDR was also reduced with a higher staff count per passenger in the new dining rooms.  They also took the formerly public Micheal's Lounge and made it for suites only.  They also made reserved seating in the center of the balcony for suites.  Those are changes that directly impacted the quality of my experience on Celebrity and why the number of cruise days on Celebrity went from about 40 per year to maybe 10 every 2 years.  It is the cruise lines choice and some love it.  

 

In some ways it is kind of like when Disney changed to the additional fee system for bypassing lines.  Those that pay for them get shorter waits, but certainly those that did not have been negatively impacted by longer waits.

[JimmyVWine]

3 minutes ago, HBCcruiser said:

I agree with you regarding the listing of just red/white. They should offer more choices. I think that this allows them to substitute wine choices as needed without having to constantly change the menus.

The problem with their excuse is that the ships operate on a closed system.  When the ship leaves port, it has what it has.  The idea of a constantly changing menu is a fiction.  Sure, it might change week to week, but even that is a stretch.  But not day to day.  You could go to a restaurant and the sommelier might tell you that they have a wine that they just got in that isn't on the list.  Happens all the time. But that is impossible on a cruise ship.  Especially with the lower end stuff that they have by the roomful.  

[Guest ldtr]

14 minutes ago, SantaFeFan said:

 Princess in the recent past has mentioned that newer ships will be larger, never smaller. I have a feeling that this new direction is a John Padgett driven change. After all, he came from Disney Corp where he lead the invention, development and implementation team that was responsible for introducing Disney's Magic Band, Fast Pass+, among other extra cost "innovations".

Princess has been headed in the larger ship direction long before Padgett.  It is driven by the economics of price competition in the main stream cruise line market.  Smaller ships are less economically efficient in both operating and capital costs.  Want smaller ships,  no way around higher fares.

[Guest ldtr]

2 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

The problem with their excuse is that the ships operate on a closed system.  When the ship leaves port, it has what it has.  The idea of a constantly changing menu is a fiction.  Sure, it might change week to week, but even that is a stretch.  But not day to day.  You could go to a restaurant and the sommelier might tell you that they have a wine that they just got in that isn't on the list.  Happens all the time. But that is impossible on a cruise ship.  Especially with the lower end stuff that they have by the roomful.  

In the mainstream market yes.  In the luxury cruise market such flexibility exists.  Before Crystal failed a friend of ours asked for a specific type wine, local to the area the cruise was in (Portugal).  They did not have it.  The next day after a port stop they made sure that they did

[Guest ldtr]

8 minutes ago, sloopsailor said:

LOL! It's pretty easy to guess who are wealthy and can afford these new "exclusive" changes being introduced with the new ship. Just read the comments defending them. 😉 

Actually willingness to spend money on such things is not necessarily a measure of ones net worth, as it is about ones perception of value. I know a lot of people that are perfectly willing to spend above their means for things that make them feel special, just as I know many that spend below their means because such strokes of their ego are not necessary and they do not perceive the extra costs as having value.

[PTMary]

20 minutes ago, ldtr said:

In some ways it is kind of like when Disney changed to the additional fee system for bypassing lines.  Those that pay for them get shorter waits, but certainly those that did not have been negatively impacted by longer waits.

 

We always took advantage of the Fast Pass system Disney had for years. It was free for all and no one had an undue advantage over the next park guest, and only one jump at a time possible to make it even for everyone. Considering that John Padgett was part of the team that developed the additional fee bypass system, it makes sense that the same thing is happening at Princess now that he is president. We saw the same thing happen to what used to be our favorite cruise line, Celebrity, when Lisa Lutoff-Perlo took over as president and began to introduce the many extra cost features the newer ships are rife with. 

 

Then they decided to charge people $15 per day to jump to the front of the line. Where everyone had equal opportunity to make that jump, which was fair to everyone, now only the people willing to pay another $15 (over the already steep $120+ per day to enter the park) can bypass people, while the ones who don't pay that extortionist price stand in line even longer. 

 

Thank you Mr. Padgett for looking out for the little guy. (sarcasm)

Edited September 16, 2022 by PTMary

[Guest ldtr]

46 minutes ago, cruzsnooze said:

You're assuming the sanctuary hasn't been enlarged to accommodate more passengers. Let's not jump to conclusions until we actually see the ship and read the real time reviews when it starts sailing.

  So much of this thread is sounding like sour grapes because some can afford a more luxurious cruise then others. Everyone has the same opportunity to book into the two upscale categories. Some people eat at Denny's - McDonalds - Mortons, there are choices and we can go where we're comfortable.  

However the question then becomes where else to they take that space from.  

 

No sour grapes or even a question of affordability.  It is a question of what negative impacts occur that reduce the value of the experience of the remaining passengers.

 

To put it another way when I fly on a plane everyone knows what they get for their dollar, an improvement of services to business class, usually does not negatively impact the service it coach, it is what it is.   What happens when ships go to the ship within a ship concept is more like an airline deciding that only those in business class can use the seats in the waiting area and everyone else needs to stand while waiting for the plane.  It would be a change unlike services on the plane that would negatively impact the value for others.

[cruisingrob21]

looks like the faux walk in closets are gone - they gone back to a "hallway" of cabinets similar to most other lines.  Always liked the "walkin"

[Guest ldtr]

5 minutes ago, PTMary said:

 

Considering that John Padgett was part of the team that developed the additional fee bypass system, it makes sense that the same thing is happening at Princess. We always took advantage of the Fast Pass system Disney had for years. It was free for all and no one had an undue advantage over the next park guest, and only one jump at a time possible to make it even for everyone.

 

Then they decided to charge people $15 per day to jump to the front of the line. Where everyone had equal opportunity to make that jump, which was fair to everyone, now only the people willing to pay another $15 (over the already steep $120+ per day to enter the park) can bypass people, while the ones who don't pay that extortionist price stand in line even longer. 

 

Thank you Mr. Padgett for looking out for the little guy. (sarcasm)

Used to love Disney parks.  Would usually spend a few days there whenever I was in Florida, as well as the fact that I live about 3 hours from Anaheim.  As a result of some of the changes, especially post pandemic, it is not on my future travel schedule.  Costs about the same to stay a few days in a Disney property and go to animal kingdom as it does to fly to South Africa and see the animals in the wild.

Edited September 16, 2022 by ldtr

[cruisingrob21]

2 minutes ago, ldtr said:

Used to love Disney parks.  Would usually spend a few days there whenever I was in Florida, as well as the fact that I live about 3 hours from Anaheim.  As a result of some of the changes, especially post pandemic, it is not on my future travel schedule.  Costs about the same to stay a few days in a Disney property and go to animal kingdom as it does to fly to South Africa and see the animals in the wild.

To be fair, supply and demand is broken at disney parks.  They could charge $300 a ticket and it would still be packed.  They can charge $5 for a bottle of water or $9 for a corndog and have people happily give them money for food that is mostly just average.

 

I wondered why the Royal princess initially only had 2 pools when the Ruby Princess, before it, had 4 or 5.  Well, pools cost money, they don't make money.

 

As cruising continues to grow in popularity, we (myself) are fools to think that prices won't grow with it.  And as others have pointed out, 30 years ago, cruises were extremely expensive often on older ships, in tiny, awkward rooms, with few amenities beyond a pool, a dining room, and a few lounges/bars.  It's certainly our right to complain/celebrate the changes we see in the new Sun Princess, but now that the keel has been laid, the only way you can change anything is either getting a job with Princess, or voting with your wallet.

[Sea Hag]

2 hours ago, Thrak said:

Wow. Very small interior cabins.

=========================

That's not the smallest interior I've ever seen. On some NCL ship or another, we were in one that was 127 square feet. That number really stuck in my memory.

[cruisingrob21]

2 minutes ago, Sea Hag said:

That's not the smallest interior I've ever seen. On some NCL ship or another, we were in one that was 127 square feet. That number really stuck in my memory.

I recall the movie "Out to Sea" with Walter Matthau and Jack Lemmon when they first get to their cabin.  Jack's character mutters something along the lines of "a good fart could give you a concussion"

[Guest ldtr]

11 minutes ago, cruisingrob21 said:

To be fair, supply and demand is broken at disney parks.  They could charge $300 a ticket and it would still be packed.  They can charge $5 for a bottle of water or $9 for a corndog and have people happily give them money for food that is mostly just average.

 

I wondered why the Royal princess initially only had 2 pools when the Ruby Princess, before it, had 4 or 5.  Well, pools cost money, they don't make money.

 

As cruising continues to grow in popularity, we (myself) are fools to think that prices won't grow with it.  And as others have pointed out, 30 years ago, cruises were extremely expensive often on older ships, in tiny, awkward rooms, with few amenities beyond a pool, a dining room, and a few lounges/bars.  It's certainly our right to complain/celebrate the changes we see in the new Sun Princess, but now that the keel has been laid, the only way you can change anything is either getting a job with Princess, or voting with your wallet.

TO date I have considered what I spend on Princess to be a decent value (just as I did with the money I spent on Celebrity before their changes).  Given a choice I would rather spend to cruise on a ship that does not follow the ship within a ship approach, such as Oceania, than I would to spend the same amount to be in one of the special ship within a ship groups.

 

One certainly expects prices will grow, it is the reduction of value as more of the limited space/staff on the ship gets redirected increasing services for group A the expense of group B.

Edited September 16, 2022 by ldtr

[sloopsailor]

16 minutes ago, cruisingrob21 said:

To be fair, supply and demand is broken at disney parks.  They could charge $300 a ticket and it would still be packed.  They can charge $5 for a bottle of water or $9 for a corndog and have people happily give them money for food that is mostly just average.

 

 

Disney could limit the number of tickets sold for each date. They won't because they care less about overcrowding than they do about revenue. This is the result in changing leadership at Disney Corp. I used to live in Southern California.

 

My family visited Disneyland the month it opened. We used to go two or three times per year. I have been to Disneyland over 60 times, and Walt Disney World at least a dozen times. For years Disney parks were the most fun places I visited. But, the honeymoon is over. We have decided to no longer patronize any of the Disney parks due to the explosive price increases over the last several years. The product is not better than before - just much more expensive. In fact, with the ever increasing over crowding, it is not pleasant at all. 

 

I am fearing that Princess is moving in that direction. With three additional Sphere class ships being planned - the second will debut in 2025 - the older ships (Grand and Crown class) will be sold off sooner than later as their design will no longer fit in with the new image Princess is moving towards. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by sloopsailor

[Sea Hag]

10 minutes ago, sloopsailor said:

NCL Prima has interior solo cabins that are 94 square feet small. Want a dose of claustrophobia, anyone?

 

I would be fine with that, but my poor hubby would go berserk!