Reports from Carnival Panorama

[BlerkOne]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

While Congress may have set a "precedent" with Alaska this year, that is a specific law passed by Congress, and cannot be used by a government agency to alter the requirements elsewhere.  And, if CBP were to merely say, "well, that's okay, you missed all your ports due to covid" so we won't assess a fine, they would lose all chance of doing so for any circumstance in the future.  As I said, they will definitely assess the fine, but will also almost assuredly waive it upon appeal from Carnival.

As this is likely to be ongoing for a few cruises, Congress could make a new covid exemption for the left coast with certain automatic triggers for as long as the pandemic lasts. I suppose they could even make it retroactive.

[BlerkOne]

3 minutes ago, smellywax said:

I agree, the crew have been fantastic! We were on lido deck and then in the elevators following where 2 families were majorly complaining and mad they were missing their golf outing today after missing their zip lining yesterday and what an “effed up Christmas.” I wanted to tell them it’s effed up that being together wasn’t enough. Glad there are others on the ship that are making the most of it.

Certainly better than 2020.

[chengkp75]

5 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

That is true, but the parent nation could exempt the "private island", same as Congress did for Alaska/Canada. I think the only question then would be how much it would cost the cruise lines.

Well, your island choices are Kiribati (3300+ miles), the Galapagos (2800+ miles) or Isla Guadalupe, Mexico, and Mexico does not seem likely to "exempt" an island given their current stance.

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

As this is likely to be ongoing for a few cruises, Congress could make a new covid exemption for the left coast with certain automatic triggers for as long as the pandemic lasts. I suppose they could even make it retroactive.

The difference is that the Alaska exemption benefited US citizens and businesses in Alaska, while the Mexican one would benefit strictly foreign corporations.  And, given the rising numbers of covid cases on cruises, I don't think there are as many supporters for a cruise line exemption these days.

Edited December 28, 2021 by chengkp75

[ohioNCLcruiser]

I wonder if it's in Carnival's best interest to cancel the next voyage, really space out the crew and let everyone be in their own quarantine for the next week? One way to nip it or reset the numbers for now to allow the ship back in ports. 

[BlerkOne]

7 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, your island choices are Kiribati (3300+ miles), the Galapagos (2800+ miles) or Isla Guadalupe, Mexico, and Mexico does not seem likely to "exempt" an island given their current stance.

I think it would have to Mexico or not at all. Never say never.

 

The cruise lines are still deeply in debt and if they fail, many American jobs and revenue will be lost. I think there is more at stake than strictly foreign corporations. 

 

 

[ArchieCruise]

21 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The difference is that the Alaska exemption benefited US citizens and businesses in Alaska, while the Mexican one would benefit strictly foreign corporations.  And, given the rising numbers of covid cases on cruises, I don't think there are as many supporters for a cruise line exemption these days.

If given an extension to stay within the US then maybe go north up the coast (I know not ideal in winter) or maybe at least stop in San Diego or Catalina.  

[tm_aw_love]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

 

Actually, if all the foreign ports are missed, then Carnival would be charged as being in violation of the PVSA, and a fine levied.  It would then be on Carnival to request an exemption from the fine due to the port authorities not allowing the ship to enter (outside Carnival's control), and they would almost assuredly get it.  In all cases like this, where foreign ports are missed (weather, mechanical, or local conditions), CBP issues the fine (gotta keep the paperwork correct), and then the line has to appeal.

From what I understand they did actually get all the way into port in PV... what would be the difference between this and any other 'technical stop'?

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, ArchieCruise said:

If given an extension to stay within the US then maybe go north up the coast (I know not ideal in winter) or maybe at least stop in San Diego or Catalina.  

I know that the Alaska exemption bill passed by acclamation, but I think that if Congress goes to the well again, that CBP, USCG, Homeland Security, and State Departments would have a whole lot of issues with allowing foreign crew to work in the US.  US maritime labor would also not look kindly on a second exemption.

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, tm_aw_love said:

From what I understand they did actually get all the way into port in PV... what would be the difference between this and any other 'technical stop'?

Technical stops do not meet the requirements of the PVSA.  

Edited December 28, 2021 by chengkp75

[ohioNCLcruiser]

5 minutes ago, tm_aw_love said:

From what I understand they did actually get all the way into port in PV... what would be the difference between this and any other 'technical stop'?

Passengers have to be allowed to actually get off. Ten years or so cruise lines going to Hawaii were doing a 2 hour stop in Ensenada in the middle of the night to comply with this law while not actually allowing passengers off. NCL went to court and had it changed.

[monykalyn]

OP hope you enjoy the cruise/ship anyway! Thanks for taking time to update. At some point ya just gotta laugh right?

Just pushed out Jan 15 cruise on panorama out to March. Hopefully things calmed down by then...

@chengkp75 I really appreciate your detailed and knowledgeable responses-not only to this post but others. 

[cruisingguy007]

47 minutes ago, CeleBrat said:

Given that all of the Western MEX ports seem to be closing-off to the Carnival ships, it almost seems that the next few Western cruises really aren't viable.

 

I wouldn't mind a cruise to nowhere or a technical stop cruise for the right price, though this itinerary has good port stops, a week on Panorama ship is plenty enjoyable for me. Well, with everything open and operational (full experience) and covid not flaring out of control that is. I'm even worried about my April cruise now. May have to push that back to 2023 and do a local land vacay if conditions don't improve. Figured things would be normal by then. Surprise! The Mrs is leaning that way too. Feels like we are starting all over again almost. I think omicron is just getting started too, the next few weeks will be a dozy. Enough people will be jabbed though and a lot of minor cases isn't such a bad thing IMO. Hopefully, folks that are lower risk, get their jabs/boosters and continue to sail on even with these hangups.      

[Ferry_Watcher]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

US maritime labor would also not look kindly on a second exemption.

FYI, many of our Washington State ferry runs had to be cancelled/suspended due to qualified labor shortages. Since the Alaska cruises are seasonal, and most of the jobs on the ships are either food service or housekeeping, I can't imagine it would be a big draw for US workers.  As for the engine room, it's still a seasonal sailing, and I don't know if US workers would want to travel with the ship to Asia or other parts of the world after the Alaskan cruise season ends.

[BlerkOne]

10 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Technical stops do not meet the requirements of the PVSA.  

Would discharging an ill passenger qualify? It seems to me ships are still stopping in Cozumel and perhaps other Mexican ports not on the left coast.

[cruisingguy007]

24 minutes ago, ArchieCruise said:

If given an extension to stay within the US then maybe go north up the coast (I know not ideal in winter) or maybe at least stop in San Diego or Catalina.  

 

Yup, I'd do this no problem. They could run west coast runs, east coast runs and south/gulf runs. I would cruise with stops along the west from Seattle on down to Diego and good with any stops along the way. If the lines have no foreign ports then maybe a temporary accommodation to run US cruises could be granted. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by cruisingguy007

[chengkp75]

Just now, BlerkOne said:

Would discharging an ill passenger qualify? It seems to me ships are still stopping in Cozumel and perhaps other Mexican ports not on the left coast.

That depends on whether the ship actually "clears for entry" or not.  Typical medical evacuations are not "cleared", just given permission to disembark the patient.  

[chengkp75]

5 minutes ago, Ferry_Watcher said:

FYI, many of our Washington State ferry runs had to be cancelled/suspended due to qualified labor shortages. Since the Alaska cruises are seasonal, and most of the jobs on the ships are either food service or housekeeping, I can't imagine it would be a big draw for US workers.  As for the engine room, it's still a seasonal sailing, and I don't know if US workers would want to travel with the ship to Asia or other parts of the world after the Alaskan cruise season ends.

First off, there is a major difference between US ferry crew in housekeeping or food service, and foreign crew on cruise ships in the same jobs.  The major one is that the USCG requires that every crew member on a US flag ship be a credentialed mariner, with hours of shoreside training prior to working on a ship, and with a full FBI background check.  Also, the mariner documents cost a good bit.  These requirements are what keeps the NCL POA understaffed most of the time.  There is no pool of credentialed mariners in the food service and housekeeping jobs that are just waiting for jobs, unlike the foreign crew.  And, no US mariner would work for the international crew wages, but part of the required work visa for "cruises to nowhere" is that the foreign crew is paid what a comparable US worker would be paid.

[urbanhawk]

I feel the passengers disappointment and pain.  I would think their port taxes and fees would be refunded, for what it's worth.

[seekatz]

Off topic a bit, but as these are now sea days is the cruise director building in more activities.

When we sailed the Miracle a month ago, only a CBS news and a home show and few movies.

Can you let us know what the experience is on the Panorama for activities and TV. Thanks

[BlerkOne]

19 minutes ago, urbanhawk said:

I feel the passengers disappointment and pain.  I would think their port taxes and fees would be refunded, for what it's worth.

I think they are automatically added back to shipboard accounts.

[travelplus]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

 

Actually, if all the foreign ports are missed, then Carnival would be charged as being in violation of the PVSA, and a fine levied.  It would then be on Carnival to request an exemption from the fine due to the port authorities not allowing the ship to enter (outside Carnival's control), and they would almost assuredly get it.  In all cases like this, where foreign ports are missed (weather, mechanical, or local conditions), CBP issues the fine (gotta keep the paperwork correct), and then the line has to appeal.

This is so crazy because of COVID a county does not let you dock so therefore an aitomatic exepmtion should be granted as it was not Carnival's fault. At least you won't need to clear Customs on return because technically while you entered International waters you never physically docked in any port. Am I right?    Perhaps Carnival will be required to call at Ensenada for formalities. 

 

I will be on the February 26 sailing of the Panorama so we shall see what happens.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by travelplus

[travelplus]

1 hour ago, cruisingguy007 said:

 

I wouldn't mind a cruise to nowhere or a technical stop cruise for the right price, though this itinerary has good port stops, a week on Panorama ship is plenty enjoyable for me. Well, with everything open and operational (full experience) and covid not flaring out of control that is. I'm even worried about my April cruise now. May have to push that back to 2023 and do a local land vacay if conditions don't improve. Figured things would be normal by then. Surprise! The Mrs is leaning that way too. Feels like we are starting all over again almost. I think omicron is just getting started too, the next few weeks will be a dozy. Enough people will be jabbed though and a lot of minor cases isn't such a bad thing IMO. Hopefully, folks that are lower risk, get their jabs/boosters and continue to sail on even with these hangups.      

7 nights on a cruise without Ports that I can easily fly to would not be the end of the world living in the SF Bay Area. While I would love to do the Shore Excursions I booked if it turns out we skip a port or ports I am not that upset. If I am given $50 I would buy a Bottle of Wine or put it towards my Adult drinks.  We have to be flexible.   I would rather be on a cruise then stuck  on I80 in the snow! 

Maybe we have to turn our thinking around. Instead of the Ports we focus on the cruise as the primary reason we are going on vacation like a moving All Inclusive Vacation and the ports secondary.  Then we won't be as disappointed. As long as Carnival provides a good cruise with food, entertainment and a safe environment then I am all for a 7 Day Cruise to Nowhere.

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by travelplus

[travelplus]

2 hours ago, nslatin said:

So if Panorama is denied port entry at  PV, Mazatlan and Cabo does this put Carnival in violation of the PVSA?

Of course not its  not like Carnival missed the ports on purpose.

[chengkp75]

5 minutes ago, travelplus said:

This is so crazy because of COVID a county does not let you dock so therefore an aitomatic exepmtion should be granted as it was not Carnival's fault. At least you won't need to clear Customs on return because technically while you entered International waters you never physically docked in any port. Am I right?    Perhaps Carnival will be required to call at Ensenada for formalities. 

 

I will be on the February 26 sailing of the Panorama so we shall see what happens.

 

 

The exemption is almost automatic, it just has to be done.  The only reason an exemption would be granted is for something outside Carnival's control.

 

A "technical stop" in Ensenada for "formalities" is not allowed.

 

And, yes, you will have to clear customs and immigration upon return, since you "cleared" out of the country at embarkation.  The ship itself is foreign terrritory, and has duty free sales.