Updated terms covering positive test on ships

[Interestedcruisefan]

29 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

 Cunard/P&O finally (after months of my chasing for a "buyer beware clause") are finally doing the right thing and informing the passengers of the risk.

 

 

I don't think the buyer beware clauses are fit for purpose tbh

 

Deliberately unclear 

 

Hence why people still are asking questions or being shocked when they find out they are responsible for the costs 

 

The lack of transparency from the cruise lines is appalling IMO

 

Even once they know there's an issue they try to hide it in flowery cruise line speak that gives the impression you have nothing to worry about etc

 

Meanwhile in the terms and conditions well hidden away somewhere will be the plain speak that covers them from liability 

 

I think it's time trading standards got involved in looking at all this tbh

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Interestedcruisefan

[Victoria2]

OK, I'll bite.

 

I quite appreciate you [Icf] are playing the ultimate Devil's Advocate here and putting your spoon to great use but

 

What is unclear about anything could and might happen when travelling during a pandemic?

 

For goodness sake, the media [UK] has been awash with travellers complaining how 'the rules have changed' whilst they've been away/ were about to go away...

 

If 'you're' going to take a holiday during a pandemic, then Caveat Emptor and all that and if ;you' can't Emptor your Caveat, then you shouldn't be thinking of going on holiday.

[Interestedcruisefan]

14 minutes ago, Victoria2 said:

What is unclear about anything could and might happen when travelling during a pandemic?

 

So we both agree what happens is very unclear? 

 

But I'm saying the cruise lines are deliberately making things less clear with their messages

 

When they could easily make it very clear for everybody

 

And it's not even subtle

 

Cunards recent statement about quarantine is deliberately misleading IMO 

 

Under the heading

 

Sail with Confidence - Our Assurance To You

 

Saying they will help and support you get suitable quarantine and flights home 

 

Not once making it clear they aren't going to be paying for any of that

 

Some people will read that and not realise what it means

 

I absolutely guarantee 

 

The lack of transparency is unreal in a situation as serious as this

 

Meanwhile people on here who do know what it means then blame the passengers for not understanding the risks!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Interestedcruisefan

[Megabear2]

15 minutes ago, Interestedcruisefan said:

 

I don't think the buyer beware clauses are fit for purpose tbh

 

Deliberately unclear 

 

Hence why people still are asking questions or being shocked when they find out they are responsible for the costs 

 

The lack of transparency from the cruise lines is appalling IMO

 

Even once they know there's an issue they try to hide it in flowery cruise line speak that gives the impression you have nothing to worry about etc

 

Meanwhile in the terms and conditions well hidden away somewhere will be the plain speak that covers them from liability 

 

I think it's time trading standards got involved in looking at all this tbh

 

 

 

 

 

ICF: The acceptance by the cruise lines that there is a problem is a step in the right direction, albeit "flowery cruise speak". In fairness until the first offloaded Fred passenger raised their head when international cruising from the UK restarted hardly anyone, yourself included, knew there might be an issue.

 

I came to these boards armed with information because I had already considered the quarantine risk as an individual. Most people when buying insurance or booking a cruise do not read the huge amount of literature accompanying such purchase and this is why it is coming as such a shock on this particular board.

 

You are very active on many forums so keep in touch with other people's problems, many are not.

 

You will recall back in September I mentioned RCI/Celebrity terms being clearer and more passenger orientated. With the arrival of Omicron and the massive amount of positive tests occurring they too have rowed back and are telling people they may be on their own if offloaded ashore.  

 

Ultimately it is a passenger's responsibility to read what they're signing up for and weigh the risk.  The information has always been out there just most of us never bother to find it and consider the consequences it may have on us.

 

We too, as passengers, have responsibilities and are now better able to see what they are.  I am not sure apart from committing financial suicide by saying don't sail what you can further expect from the cruise lines?

 

What is really needed is the underwriting issue to ge addressed and this can only ge achieved by joint pressure from the cruise lines, the passengers and possibly Government intervention.  

 

Months ago I suggested everyone booked on a cruise should email their cruise line and local MP to highlight the problem. Many on the P&O CC board did so.  The answer is not ideal but the current update is better than what was there previously.

[Victoria2]

1 minute ago, Interestedcruisefan said:

But I'm saying the cruise lines are deliberately making things less clear

 

When they could make it very clear

 

And it's not even subtle

And when does personal responsibility come into play? 

 

I don't think the announcements are making anything less clear. The bottom line is, the travel world is a mess. Wrap around care with travel insurance has gone out the window.

 

This situation is new. The cruise world doesn't seem to have woken up to some of the implications  yet so travel at your own 'peril' and accept it's your responsibility to ensure 'you're OK with the 'anything might happen' scenario and if your insurance won't cover certain aspects, then it's down to 'you'. If the cruise line, in this instance, 'helps out' then that's a bonus.

 

 

 

 

 

[Megabear2]

17 minutes ago, Victoria2 said:

OK, I'll bite.

 

I quite appreciate you [Icf] are playing the ultimate Devil's Advocate here and putting your spoon to great use but

 

What is unclear about anything could and might happen when travelling during a pandemic?

 

For goodness sake, the media [UK] has been awash with travellers complaining how 'the rules have changed' whilst they've been away/ were about to go away...

 

If 'you're' going to take a holiday during a pandemic, then Caveat Emptor and all that and if ;you' can't Emptor your Caveat, then you shouldn't be thinking of going on holiday.

That's a little unfair to those locked in to cruises/holidays fully paid for possibly years ago who are unable to cancel without huge losses.  Yes, I would agree with you regarding new bookings made since the depth of the pandemic became known but most definitely not for those locked in and constantly moving their funds in the form of unprotected FCC with no financial protection if they don't rebook.

[Megabear2]

9 minutes ago, Victoria2 said:

This situation is new. The cruise world doesn't seem to have woken up to some of the implications  yet 

 

 

 

 

 

With the greatest of respect it is not new. Carnival UK Head Office acknowledged in September that it was correct that you could not insure negative offloaded testers.  I have pages of emails where they acknowledge this and state they are having meetings at the highest level to seek a solution. Therefore at least Cunard and P&O should have been addressing it urgently with the insurance companies, especially the one they recommend.  If they have not been doing so it would appear to be a dereliction of customer care.

[Victoria2]

5 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

That's a little unfair to those locked in to cruises/holidays fully paid for possibly years ago who are unable to cancel without huge losses.  Yes, I would agree with you regarding new bookings made since the depth of the pandemic became known but most definitely not for those locked in and constantly moving their funds in the form of unprotected FCC with no financial protection if they don't rebook.

and which I addressed comments ago when I said it was slightly [British understatement]  hard on those who can't defer, cancel etc in the immediate timescale.

 

[Alanxx]

I thought some people might be interested in the Travel Insurance that comes with a Nationwide Bank Account.It is for a joint bank account for my wife and I ........Here is the wording

 

Your cover while you’re away

You’re covered for emergency medical costs abroad. This includes additional transport and accommodation costs if you need treatment or your return home is delayed due to having to quarantine because of the coronavirus on your trip.

Some countries require you to quarantine when you arrive. If the FCDO were not advising you to quarantine when you booked your trip, opened your current account or began your trip, you’re covered for reasonable additional accommodation and transport costs.

 

[Victoria2]

Just now, Megabear2 said:

With the greatest of respect it is not new. Carnival UK Head Office acknowledged in September that it was correct that you could not insure negative offloaded testers.  I have pages of emails where they acknowledge this and state they are having meetings at the highest level to seek a solution. Therefore at least Cunard and P&O should have been addressing it urgently with the insurance companies, especially the one they recommend.  If they have not been doing so it would appear to be a dereliction of customer care.

The situation is new with regards to the Covid pandemic which has affected the world since March '20.

[cruising.mark.uk]

ICF - perhaps you can help us and the cruise lines by explicitly laying out the text that you would like to see on the cruise line websites, text which meets your standards for clarity and transparency and which it will be impossible for any passenger to read without understanding precisely what it means?

[stratton007]

58 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

I've just double checked my research since offloading began. Staysure have apparently not to date accepted liability for negative offloading.  I know personally one person still battling with them from October. This doesn't mean of course that the person will not eventually get some recompense from them, but does highlight the need to have easy access to finance.  

 

On other forums people state they are having to meet all costs upfront and are using credit cards to do so.

Thanks for the info, keep me posted please

[Victoria2]

4 minutes ago, Alanxx said:

I thought some people might be interested in the Travel Insurance that comes with a Nationwide Bank Account.It is for a joint bank account for my wife and I ........Here is the wording

 

Your cover while you’re away

You’re covered for emergency medical costs abroad. This includes additional transport and accommodation costs if you need treatment or your return home is delayed due to having to quarantine because of the coronavirus on your trip.

Some countries require you to quarantine when you arrive. If the FCDO were not advising you to quarantine when you booked your trip, opened your current account or began your trip, you’re covered for reasonable additional accommodation and transport costs.

 

Very similar to our insurance  t&cs. We have a clause where a companion might be required to assist, Could be interesting arguing that one! 🙂

[Harry Peterson]

4 minutes ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

ICF - perhaps you can help us and the cruise lines by explicitly laying out the text that you would like to see on the cruise line websites, text which meets your standards for clarity and transparency and which it will be impossible for any passenger to read without understanding precisely what it means?

Perhaps a clear warning that passengers may be offloaded, rather than allowed to remain on the ship, and that travel insurance will not necessarily cover the costs incurred?

[Megabear2]

5 minutes ago, Alanxx said:

I thought some people might be interested in the Travel Insurance that comes with a Nationwide Bank Account.It is for a joint bank account for my wife and I ........Here is the wording

 

Your cover while you’re away

You’re covered for emergency medical costs abroad. This includes additional transport and accommodation costs if you need treatment or your return home is delayed due to having to quarantine because of the coronavirus on your trip.

Some countries require you to quarantine when you arrive. If the FCDO were not advising you to quarantine when you booked your trip, opened your current account or began your trip, you’re covered for reasonable additional accommodation and transport costs.

 

Most of the UK packaged bank accounts offer better cover in this respect than standalone insurance companies.  Nationwide, Halifax/Lloyd's group, M&S seem to have a term appearing to cover offloading.  After speaking with them back in September I advised all individuals to contact these companies and ask for something in writing to reply to the specific question.  It was a mixed bag of replies with most saying on a case by case basis.  

 

Only Allianz were prepared to give a straight "yes" answer.

[Harry Peterson]

8 minutes ago, Alanxx said:

I thought some people might be interested in the Travel Insurance that comes with a Nationwide Bank Account.It is for a joint bank account for my wife and I ........Here is the wording

 

Your cover while you’re away

You’re covered for emergency medical costs abroad. This includes additional transport and accommodation costs if you need treatment or your return home is delayed due to having to quarantine because of the coronavirus on your trip.

Some countries require you to quarantine when you arrive. If the FCDO were not advising you to quarantine when you booked your trip, opened your current account or began your trip, you’re covered for reasonable additional accommodation and transport costs.

 

Isn’t that the summary of cover, though, rather than an extract from the actual terms of the policy?

[Megabear2]

11 minutes ago, Victoria2 said:

and which I addressed comments ago when I said it was slightly [British understatement]  hard on those who can't defer, cancel etc in the immediate timescale.

 

Indeed you did but with many thousands booked on cruises using FCC it is not unreasonable they might seek a little comfort that their loyalty in rebooking should be rewarded without a possible kick in the teeth if they are unfortunately offloaded.

[Host Hattie]

I have moved this discussion about offloading and insurance to a new thread.

[cruising.mark.uk]

Sorry, this got lost in the thread transfer!

 

 15 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

Perhaps a clear warning that passengers may be offloaded, rather than allowed to remain on the ship, and that travel insurance will not necessarily cover the costs incurred?

Thanks.  The first element of that is now very clearly stated, thanks at least in part to Megabear's engagement with CCL:

https://www.cunard.com/en-gb/frequently-asked-questions.sailing-with-confidence.faq667.summary

I think the second element is also well covered in the third para at the link 'The guest’s travel insurance provider will handle all matters in relation to their isolation stay and repatriation home, providing they took adequate Covid-19 coverage on their policy'.  Those who would like it made more explicit might like to suggest to CCL that they adjust the text to make it more clear, perhaps adding a sentence to the effect of 'Guests should check the cover provided under their policy with their insurer prior to travel'?

 

Edited to add:

The links do seem to take me to different places at different times.  Here is the 3rd para in full of the text to which I was referring above.  Interestingly, the link above now seems to lead to a different FAQ!

In situations where guests are required to disembark the ship, we shall always work with the local authorities to secure the most appropriate accommodation to continue the period of isolation. In most instances, these will be pre-determined hotels that have been identified as ones able to accommodate positive cases of Covid-19. The guest’s travel insurance provider will handle all matters in relation to their isolation stay and repatriation home, providing they took adequate Covid-19 coverage on their policy. Guests will be able to make a complimentary call from the ship to their insurance provider to advise of their disembarkation and should email their positive test results to them as soon as possible. Our dedicated support team will provide ongoing support to any guests in these circumstances.

At the moment, this text is at para 3 of this link:

https://www.cunard.com/en-gb/the-cunard-experience/sailing-with-confidence/our-assurance-to-you#

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by cruising.mark.uk

[Megabear2]

25 minutes ago, Host Hattie said:

I have moved this discussion about offloading and insurance to a new thread.

Thank you. 

[Victoria2]

30 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

Indeed you did but with many thousands booked on cruises using FCC it is not unreasonable they might seek a little comfort that their loyalty in rebooking should be rewarded without a possible kick in the teeth if they are unfortunately offloaded.

It comes down to business practices.

 

In an ideal world, the refund forthcoming to QM2 Christmas passengers would be afforded all passengers affected by cancellation or quarantining.

 

Is the world ideal?

 

We have been affected by holiday transfers on at least six cruises and had a cruise fully paid for. We chose to take the FCC but were warned later, by our agent it would not be covered in the same way a normal booking would be. A deposit in FCC is one thing. A fully paid up fourteen day almost top tier QG cabin is  quite another.

 

Consequently, we offloaded the amount onto another booking. Maybe were were lucky in a] having a savvy agent and b] being able to book another cruise.

 

I think we can consider ourselves loyal clients but we looked after ourselves and didn't expect anything else of Cunard.

 

 

[Interestedcruisefan]

1 hour ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

ICF - perhaps you can help us and the cruise lines by explicitly laying out the text that you would like to see on the cruise line websites, text which meets your standards for clarity and transparency and which it will be impossible for any passenger to read without understanding precisely what it means?

 

Something like this.  I've not had chance to check so forgive me any mistakes below. I could word it better with more time

 

Important Information Re Risk Of Quarantine:

 

in the unlikely event you test positive on board or are deemed to be a close contact of anyone who tests positive on board you will almost certainly be required to quarantine

 

When this is able to take place on the ship you will incur no extra costs for you or your travelling  companions

 

In some cases you may have to be disembarked and quarantine on land. This is often beyond our control.

 

When this does happen we need to make you aware you are fully responsible for all costs of land quarantine including  food, medical costs, transfers and flights home. However, you will be allocated customer service staff to help you organise all of the above.

 

Please be aware quarantine facilities and food options will  vary from country to country. They are beyond our control and sadly although we will always be there to support you remotely we have no control over the level of quality you will receive whilst in quarantine. Also please be aware quarantine facilities will not always be hotel standard and will often be medical facilities as their primary role is to control the spread of Covid.

 

We strongly advise you take out insurance to cover you for all of the above

 

When taking out insurance please be aware that experience shows us that it is more often than not only positive test passengers who are covered by Covid insurance. If you test negative but choose to quarantine or leave the ship to stay with a positive companion your insurance may not cover your costs above.

 

Please be assured we are following all protocols to avoid you having to be quarantine whilst cruising with us.  In the unlikely event you do have to quarantine either on board ship or on land we will provide you with a FCC for the portion of the cruise you are unable to enjoy properly with us. 

 

Please can you ensure all members of your travelling group are aware of the quarantine risks above and please can the lead booker tick the box to acknowledge they and all of the traveling party are happy to travel knowing the risks associated with quarantine many of which are beyond our control. 

 

(I think bearing in mind business have to get us to opt in just  to receive emails nowadays  that something as important as this warrants a tick box to confirm understanding. And stuff as important as this right now should NOT be hidden away in smallprint in amongst the other normal terms and conditions nor hidden away in flowery cruise with confidence statements) 

 

Let's be brutally honest we all agree you can't actually cruise with confidence right now

 

You can however cruise still albeit fully aware of the added risks

 

Let's just have more transparency is my hope

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Interestedcruisefan

[cruising.mark.uk]

Thank you.  

I think all elements of your text are covered in the 'In the event of testing positive on board' text at the second link in my post 45 above.

 

Given how difficult it can be to find these various sections of the website, I agree that it would be beneficial for CCL to include this text in an email to travellers in advance of their cruise.  I haven't cruised Cunard or P&O post re-start (due P&O in Feb), but have cruised with Celebrity and Princess, both of which bombarded us with emails about Covid protocols, testing procedures and the like in the days and weeks leading up to the cruise.  Assuming Cunard do the same, it would be easy to highlight this text in those emails.

[Interestedcruisefan]

1 hour ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

Thank you.  

I think all elements of your text are covered in the 'In the event of testing positive on board' text at the second link in my post 45 above.

 

Given how difficult it can be to find these various sections of the website, I agree that it would be beneficial for CCL to include this text in an email to travellers in advance of their cruise.  I haven't cruised Cunard or P&O post re-start (due P&O in Feb), but have cruised with Celebrity and Princess, both of which bombarded us with emails about Covid protocols, testing procedures and the like in the days and weeks leading up to the cruise.  Assuming Cunard do the same, it would be easy to highlight this text in those emails.

Mark youve actively gone looking for all the various warnings and admitted how difficult it is to piece together 

 

And you knew what to look for

 

And you will admit even the bits you point to aren't transparent and clear regardless 

 

If anything needs to be transparent, in one place and something that EVERY cruiser should be informed with right now it's the facts about quarantine

 

We should all want what happens to be totally transparent for every cruiser 

 

So that nobody can possibly travel without knowing the facts

 

Transparency should not be something to be scared of 

 

It should be something to be applauded

 

And then we can actually all agree if someone cruises now and has bad luck they can't really complain as they knew what they wrote signing up for

 

People say that now when both you and I and others on here know full well it's far from the case

 

It's very hard work getting to know the risks 

 

That's not what cruising is all about 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Interestedcruisefan

[Underwatr]

18 hours ago, Interestedcruisefan said:

So based on the above the guests and contacts pay for the quarantine abroad and the transfers home if they test positive. 

 

And the ship gives you FCC for any of the cruise you miss.

 

And thats somehow described as

 

"Sailing with confidence - our assurance to you" 

 

I would describe it as:

 

"Test positive on board and you cover all the costs.  Don't say you weren't warned!"

From personal experience, it's better than how they treat you in the event of any other medical situation that necessitates being taken off the ship.