Gratuities

[pcur]

2 hours ago, Rusty_lock said:

I did read the thread and that is what they said, quite specifically.  The OP, in their second post, posited the bizarre scenario where they would use no services aboard the ship.  That their future posts clarified their position doesn't grant you license to respond pedantically or in a condescending manner to me. 

Hmmmmmm…sorry I offended you. I was trying for a polite response.

 

I never thought the person was trying to avoid gratuities, just trying to understand the custom. Kind of like mentally walking around it, and coming from different perspectives.

Edited February 9, 2022 by pcur

[xxHadleyxx]

1 hour ago, billslowsky said:

Otherwise it will never change.

Shortchanging the staff won't cause it to change. Why would it?  Corporate still made just as much off of you.   

Refusing to sail on lines that rely on tips might, if you get enough people to join you in leaving behind the mass market lines for the somewhat higher end one which include tips in the fare, might create change.

[Amberle3]

48 minutes ago, xxHadleyxx said:

Shortchanging the staff won't cause it to change. Why would it?  Corporate still made just as much off of you.   

Refusing to sail on lines that rely on tips might, if you get enough people to join you in leaving behind the mass market lines for the somewhat higher end one which include tips in the fare, might create change.

Only if they know that's why you're refusing to sail on those lines. And frankly when the bigwigs are going over the reports and talking with their PR and marketing folks about why people aren't choosing to cruise with them chances of them hitting on "well gosh it's because we don't actually pay our crew anything close to a living wage!" is not going to be amongst the reasons they even think of.

 

The cruise industry - aside from the higher end cruises - is built around the idea of keeping fares low and paying the crew next to nothing. They work 10-16 hour days at various locations around the ship, 7 days a week, for up to 10 months at a time and rarely get a day off, while getting a monthly salary that's less than most people pay for 1 good meal at a decent restaurant. Plus they have to pay fees for their uniforms, sometimes they have to pay for internet access, dining staff have to pay a weekly "breakage fee" even if they haven't broken any dishes etc etc. To say that these folks rely on tips is definitely not an understatement.

 

I would love for the process to change. But unless there's a very vocal, very obvious movement to get the cruise lines to include tipping in the base fare the sad reality is that it's a practice that's likely to continue.

[Akkers]

As someone has correctly pointed out its a clash of cultures.

We in the UK are used to paying a fixed price. The fixed price usually includes taxes, staff wages, bills, profits etc.  If a retailer displays a TV for sale at 700GBP then we can buy it or not buy it depending on our budget and we know that the 700GBP will pay for the retailers profit, taxes, costs, staff wages etc. And we expect the retailer to pay a fair wage to the staff (there is a legal minimum wage in the UK). The only extra we can expect is delivery charges if we want it delivered.

So in my book, a business should quote one simple price out of which they can make  profit, pay taxes, wages etc and the customer either pays or not depending on what their budget is and if they can afford that figure.  Simple - one price; buy or not buy.

What next? Will they have a charge for using the bathroom onboard the ship?

Isnt there some kind of international law on minimum wages on ships?

Edited February 9, 2022 by Akkers

[UNCFanatik]

1 hour ago, xxHadleyxx said:

Shortchanging the staff won't cause it to change. Why would it?  Corporate still made just as much off of you.   

Refusing to sail on lines that rely on tips might, if you get enough people to join you in leaving behind the mass market lines for the somewhat higher end one which include tips in the fare, might create change.

 

I am sorry but no one is "short changing" the staff in regards to their decision to tip or not. Crew/Staff wages are not the responsibility of the consumer.  Tipping culture is out of control in the US and has some major dark sides that frequently get left out of conversations of this nature. 

[UNCFanatik]

14 minutes ago, Amberle3 said:

Only if they know that's why you're refusing to sail on those lines. And frankly when the bigwigs are going over the reports and talking with their PR and marketing folks about why people aren't choosing to cruise with them chances of them hitting on "well gosh it's because we don't actually pay our crew anything close to a living wage!" is not going to be amongst the reasons they even think of.

 

The cruise industry - aside from the higher end cruises - is built around the idea of keeping fares low and paying the crew next to nothing. They work 10-16 hour days at various locations around the ship, 7 days a week, for up to 10 months at a time and rarely get a day off, while getting a monthly salary that's less than most people pay for 1 good meal at a decent restaurant. Plus they have to pay fees for their uniforms, sometimes they have to pay for internet access, dining staff have to pay a weekly "breakage fee" even if they haven't broken any dishes etc etc. To say that these folks rely on tips is definitely not an understatement.

 

I would love for the process to change. But unless there's a very vocal, very obvious movement to get the cruise lines to include tipping in the base fare the sad reality is that it's a practice that's likely to continue.

 

The crew are not indentured servants or anything of that nature. They WILLFULLY signed cruise ship contracts. I do think that crew wages should be increased and let the market decide what its willing to pay for a cruise. There is a reason the cruise lines arent registered out of the US and they engage in aggressive recruiting in selective parts of the world. 

 

[UNCFanatik]

5 minutes ago, Akkers said:

As someone has correctly pointed out its a clash of cultures.

We in the UK are used to paying a fixed price. The fixed price usually includes taxes, staff wages, bills, profits etc.  If a retailer displays a TV for sale at 700GBP then we can buy it or not buy it depending on our budget and we know that the 700GBP will pay for the retailers profit, taxes, costs, staff wages etc. And we expect the retailer to pay a fair wage to the staff (there is a legal minimum wage in the UK). The only extra we can expect is delivery charges if we want it delivered.

So in my book, a business should quote one simple price out of which they can make  profit, pay taxes, wages etc and the customer either pays or not depending on what their budget is and if they can afford that figure.  Simple - one price; buy or not buy.

What next? Will they have a charge for using the bathroom onboard the ship?

Isnt there some kind of international law on minimum wages on ships?

 

I fully agree and as a US citizen I feel the tipping culture is out of control putting the burden on the customer for supplementing staff wages and not the proper focus on the employer. 

 

I agree, as a consumer, I wish I could just pay the price listed for a good/service instead of being asked to tip for certain industry sectors. 

[billslowsky]

1 minute ago, UNCFanatik said:

 

The crew are not indentured servants or anything of that nature. They WILLFULLY signed cruise ship contracts. I do think that crew wages should be increased and let the market decide what its willing to pay for a cruise. There is a reason the cruise lines arent registered out of the US and they engage in aggressive recruiting in selective parts of the world. 

 

Thy definitely aren't indentured... it's that "hero complex" that comes through where people think that the workers are being treated unreasonably when in fact, the workers know what they got into and continue to re-up.  It may be a really good alternative to what was available back in their home areas.  That some choose to spend months away from their families in the name of providing for them, while many westerners wouldn't do it, is part of their culture as well.  

[xxHadleyxx]

2 hours ago, UNCFanatik said:

 

I am sorry but no one is "short changing" the staff in regards to their decision to tip or not. Crew/Staff wages are not the responsibility of the consumer.  Tipping culture is out of control in the US and has some major dark sides that frequently get left out of conversations of this nature. 

The expected daily gratuity is very clearly explained well before you ever set foot on the ship.  You know full well that is part of cruising.  Taking advantage of a loop hole which allows you to refuse to tip, when wages are based on that, is short changing the staff.

Can you legally do it?  Yes.  But it's a crappy thing to do.   

 

I really do hope at some point the lines all move to making the standard gratuities mandatory, much like a resort fee.  Or, just include them in the quoted fare in the first place.   Then no one can skip out on it and the staff will fare better (and it don't change what those of us tipping already are spending)

[xxHadleyxx]

2 hours ago, Amberle3 said:

Only if they know that's why you're refusing to sail on those lines. And frankly when the bigwigs are going over the reports and talking with their PR and marketing folks about why people aren't choosing to cruise with them chances of them hitting on "well gosh it's because we don't actually pay our crew anything close to a living wage!" is not going to be amongst the reasons they even think of.

 

The cruise industry - aside from the higher end cruises - is built around the idea of keeping fares low and paying the crew next to nothing. They work 10-16 hour days at various locations around the ship, 7 days a week, for up to 10 months at a time and rarely get a day off, while getting a monthly salary that's less than most people pay for 1 good meal at a decent restaurant. Plus they have to pay fees for their uniforms, sometimes they have to pay for internet access, dining staff have to pay a weekly "breakage fee" even if they haven't broken any dishes etc etc. To say that these folks rely on tips is definitely not an understatement.

 

I would love for the process to change. But unless there's a very vocal, very obvious movement to get the cruise lines to include tipping in the base fare the sad reality is that it's a practice that's likely to continue.

I agree that's not likely to bring about change.  But it's more likely to than randomly stiffing the crew

[UNCFanatik]

2 minutes ago, xxHadleyxx said:

The expected daily gratuity is very clearly explained well before you ever set foot on the ship.  You know full well that is part of cruising.  Taking advantage of a loop hole which allows you to refuse to tip, when wages are based on that, is short changing the staff.

Can you legally do it?  Yes.  But it's a crappy thing to do.   

 

I really do hope at some point the lines all move to making the standard gratuities mandatory, much like a resort fee.  Or, just include them in the quoted fare in the first place.   Then no one can skip out on it and the staff will fare better (and it don't change what those of us tipping already are spending)

 

I am all for upfront pricing. No problem for me. 

 

And there is no "loop hole". My cruise fare goes towards the wages of the crew members. It is not my responsibility as a consumer to be expected to supplement the wages beyond what the company is paying them. You should direct your attention towards the cruise lines not the consumers. 

 

No one is "skipping out on tipping". It is OPTIONAL. 

[xxHadleyxx]

2 hours ago, Akkers said:

As someone has correctly pointed out its a clash of cultures.

We in the UK are used to paying a fixed price. The fixed price usually includes taxes, staff wages, bills, profits etc.  If a retailer displays a TV for sale at 700GBP then we can buy it or not buy it depending on our budget and we know that the 700GBP will pay for the retailers profit, taxes, costs, staff wages etc. And we expect the retailer to pay a fair wage to the staff (there is a legal minimum wage in the UK). The only extra we can expect is delivery charges if we want it delivered.

So in my book, a business should quote one simple price out of which they can make  profit, pay taxes, wages etc and the customer either pays or not depending on what their budget is and if they can afford that figure.  Simple - one price; buy or not buy.

What next? Will they have a charge for using the bathroom onboard the ship?

Isnt there some kind of international law on minimum wages on ships?

And yet the very vocal anti tippers on this thread are American. 🤷‍♀️

 

It's cruise industry standard.   Even British line P&O had daily gratuities added until 3 years ago.   

 

I'd love it if it changes. I like living somewhere with living wages and minimal tips.  But, I'm not short changing waitstaff in the US, or cruise staff in the meantime.  Obviously others are fine with doing so.   

 

 

[UNCFanatik]

1 minute ago, xxHadleyxx said:

I agree that's not likely to bring about change.  But it's more likely to than randomly stiffing the crew

 

No one is "stiffing the crew". Its not my responsibility to pay the crew for a job they are contracted to perform. Its wrong for Royal to charge automatic gratuity on drinks of 18%. Is someone handing me a beer worth 18% of the price of the beer? 

[time4u2go]

5 minutes ago, UNCFanatik said:

 

I am all for upfront pricing. No problem for me. 

 

And there is no "loop hole". My cruise fare goes towards the wages of the crew members. It is not my responsibility as a consumer to be expected to supplement the wages beyond what the company is paying them. You should direct your attention towards the cruise lines not the consumers. 

 

No one is "skipping out on tipping". It is OPTIONAL. 

I'm curious...do you eat at restaurants?  If so, do you tip?

[billslowsky]

Just now, time4u2go said:

I'm curious...do you eat at restaurants?  If so, do you tip?

 

Do you tip at McDonalds?  Do you tip helpful flight attendants?  Do you tip police and firemen?

[UNCFanatik]

Just now, time4u2go said:

I'm curious...do you eat at restaurants?  If so, do you tip?

 

The restaurants that I eat at do not try to automatically try to charge me a tip. 

[time4u2go]

7 minutes ago, billslowsky said:

 

Do you tip at McDonalds?  Do you tip helpful flight attendants?  Do you tip police and firemen?

Um...no.  Why do you ask?

[billslowsky]

1 minute ago, time4u2go said:

Um...no.  Why do you ask?

Exactly.

[time4u2go]

2 minutes ago, billslowsky said:

Exactly.

Huh?

[ReneeFLL]

2 hours ago, UNCFanatik said:

…Tipping culture is out of control in the US and has some major dark sides that frequently get left out of conversations of this nature. 

What dark sides are there?

[UNCFanatik]

9 minutes ago, ReneeFLL said:

What dark sides are there?

 

Discrimination and sexual harassment to name a few... 

 

[billslowsky]

9 minutes ago, UNCFanatik said:

 

Discrimination and sexual harassment to name a few... 

 

"Black food service workers whose incomes largely derive from tips have earned less during the coronavirus pandemic than their White counterparts and are more likely to experience retaliation for enforcing social distancing and mask rules, according to a new report by One Fair Wage, a national worker-advocacy group."  (Washington Post, May 2021)

 

"In a study, both black and white patrons at a moderately priced Midwestern restaurant tipped black servers less than their white counterparts. This disparity was found in spite of the fact that patrons reported being more pleased with the black servers’ work." (Pacific Standard magazine)

 

"A new study published in the Journal of Economic Psychology found waitresses whose customers deemed them as attractive tended to tip more. "  (Business Insider)

 

 

Plenty more articles out there...

 

[ReneeFLL]

40 minutes ago, UNCFanatik said:

 

Discrimination and sexual harassment to name a few... 

 

That never would have occurred to me because I tip on service and that's all I see. Since you mentioned it I can see where some people let that come into play. Dumb people. (the tippers and not the servers)

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by ReneeFLL

[Amberle3]

1 hour ago, UNCFanatik said:

 

No one is "stiffing the crew". Its not my responsibility to pay the crew for a job they are contracted to perform. 

Except the crew contract very clearly tells them that their expected salary is based primarily on tips. And the cruise line makes it very clear to passengers what the expected tips are.  

Believe me no one in their right mind is going to sign a contract to work 10-16 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 10 months, for a net sum of about $15 a week. 

 

Additionally many times the cruise lines use agents for their hiring, and those agents charge the workers anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand dollars - which gets deducted from their earnings. And cruise lines will also "pay for" the worker's airfare to the US, which actually is a loan and also comes out of their earnings. So in many cases, especially for new workers or ones at the beginning of their contracts, they start out their contracts being very much in debt to the cruise line. 

 

The bottom line is that the cruise line makes it clear to workers that they actually get paid almost nothing and their income is from tipping, and they make it clear to the passengers that tipping is expected. They really should call it something other than a "tip", but they don't.

 

 

[LGW59]

5 minutes ago, Amberle3 said:

Except the crew contract very clearly tells them that their expected salary is based primarily on tips. And the cruise line makes it very clear to passengers what the expected tips are.  

Believe me no one in their right mind is going to sign a contract to work 10-16 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 10 months, for a net sum of about $15 a week. 

 

Additionally many times the cruise lines use agents for their hiring, and those agents charge the workers anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand dollars - which gets deducted from their earnings. And cruise lines will also "pay for" the worker's airfare to the US, which actually is a loan and also comes out of their earnings. So in many cases, especially for new workers or ones at the beginning of their contracts, they start out their contracts being very much in debt to the cruise line. 

 

The bottom line is that the cruise line makes it clear to workers that they actually get paid almost nothing and their income is from tipping, and they make it clear to the passengers that tipping is expected. They really should call it something other than a "tip", but they don't.

 

 

Believe me no one in their right mind is going to sign a contract to work 10-16 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 10 months, for a net sum of about $15 a week.  Where did you come up with this $15/week rubbish. STOP you clearly know this is false!