Crown Princess propulsion issues again

[rrshinn]

Received an email today of engine issues on the Crown and itinerary changes.  This is ridiculous, the ship has a history of engine problems and now they've made the AK cruise season pretty much a waste of money.  Poor management to not fix these issues during the pandemic down time.  Anyone know what is going on?

[MarcsSharon]

So disappointing…all this money for 2 quick ports..oh wait …forget the couple of hours n Victoria. I am done with Princess. Will look to cancel tomorrow, along with our travel companions. 
 

[AZjohn]

It's not unique to Princess.

But agree it really sucks when it's your cruise.

[Jlhutch6]

Can you cancel if you’re paid in full?

[flaminog]

Awesome. Just opened my email to this, thanks for the heads up. 
 

***** are we supposed to do in icy strait point for 3 hours? Actually asking-never been to Alaska and pissed-was looking forward to Ketchikan. Will see if my TA can shift to a different ship.

[rrshinn]

Crazy!  You're right two quick ports.  We had a float plane tour in Ketchikan that's out the window.  Although they did give us a $100 credit for our trouble.🤣  Warning to all Crown Princess travelers this summer if you can cancel GET OUT.

[caribill]

Another thread on the subject points out that the changed port times on ports that stayed the same meant they had booked independent shore excursions that depart before the ship will now arrive.

 

Others posted that they have Princess excursions that were before the ship will now arrive and wonder if Princess will be able to provide the same excursions with a later arrival. With so many ships in port, excursion providers may not be able to provide the Princess excursions at a later time.

[Cuedon]

5 hours ago, flaminog said:

***** are we supposed to do in icy strait point for 3 hours? Actually asking-never been to Alaska and pissed-was looking forward to Ketchikan

I find ISP a rather pleasant place to go out and wander around on one of the wilderness trails for an hour or two.

 

There's also an old salmon canning factory that's converted into a free museum with retail space that I found interesting.

 

Having said that, if I had to choose, I'd go to Ketchikan over ISP most of the time, and definitely if it was my first time. 

[chengkp75]

8 hours ago, rrshinn said:

Poor management to not fix these issues during the pandemic down time.

Before you cast aspersions about poor management, do you have facts to back these up?  What, exactly, were the previous "issues"?  What was the exact failure?  What is the exact failure this time?  Is this a propulsion problem or another generator problem?  If it is another generator problem, is it the same generator of the 6 onboard, or a different one?  Is it the same failure as the last time, or a different one?  These generators, unlike your car's engine, are torn apart, every moving part inspected, and renewed, every 2-3 years.  You essentially have a new engine every time it is overhauled.  Is this a design problem that only the manufacturer, not Princess, could remedy?  Is this an overhaul that is delayed due to supply chain difficulties in getting spare parts?

 

Yes, it sucks when it impacts your vacation, but even equipment maintained to manufacturer's standards can break down.

[rrshinn]

As to poor management look at the Crown Princess record of propulsion problems over many years.  There was plenty of opportunity to permanently correct the problem.  Also a KP grad class of 80.  37 years with ExxonMobil, last 20 as seagoing Master.  Crew can only do so much if corporate does not support a permanent resolution to a chronic issue.

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, rrshinn said:

As to poor management look at the Crown Princess record of propulsion problems over many years.  There was plenty of opportunity to permanently correct the problem.  Also a KP grad class of 80.  37 years with ExxonMobil, last 20 as seagoing Master.  Crew can only do so much if corporate does not support a permanent resolution to a chronic issue.

Again, what is the "problem"?  Is it one problem? Is it many problems?  If it is a different problem each time, does that make it a "chronic" problem?  With your experience, you should know that complex things can have any multitude of things fail.  I have issues with Princess' and Carnival Corp's management in several areas, but I don't caste aspersions until I have the facts.  I don't see any facts here.  Do you know what the "chronic" problem is, and whether there is a fix for it, short of pulling the entire engine out of the ship?  And, those engines are used widely, why is it just "chronic" for Crown Princess?

[cruisingrob21]

The crown was scheduled to originally return to service in March or April of 2022 if I recall with a series of Hawaii and coastal cruises RT from Seattle.  That was late last year I believe.  Perhaps its been an issue they have been working on for a while.

 

The crown's next drydock, as of a few months ago, is to be this October in Portland but if they can't fix the issue before then, I have little hope they will be able to during.  I went on a tour of the drydock here in Portland when the Caribbean was sitting high and dry earlier this month.  The drydock team doesn't really get involved with engine issues unless its a complete replacement which obviously is more expensive than a fix, in most cases.  

 

As chegkp75 alludes to, its all speculation without more information. 

[VibeGuy]

Informed speculation alert:  fouled heat exchangers limiting total engine output.  Have to isolate each one in series to de-foul.  
 

source:  small birdie with some technical chops in this area when dealing with ships that have been effectively mothballed 

 

supporting evidence:  sailings in August and September, pre-dry dock haven’t been modified.  Yet.   Problem is amenable to underway resolution but takes time. 
 

 

 

 

[chengkp75]

13 minutes ago, VibeGuy said:

Informed speculation alert:  fouled heat exchangers limiting total engine output.  Have to isolate each one in series to de-foul.  
 

source:  small birdie with some technical chops in this area when dealing with ships that have been effectively mothballed 

 

supporting evidence:  sailings in August and September, pre-dry dock haven’t been modified.  Yet.   Problem is amenable to underway resolution but takes time. 
 

Yeah, OP titled this "propulsion" issue, then "engine" issue, so no credibility for "chronic" problem.  This is definitely a likely scenario, but I'm surprised that they shut off the impressed current anti-fouling in the sea chests, and didn't rotate engine rooms during the shutdown.  Also, surprised that they didn't open the plate heat exchangers when sailings started.  Poor onboard maintenance decisions, not really poor corporate policy.  Yes, can take time, but I've done this many times during a 1-2 day port call, so while a bit frenetic, it can be done in time.

[VibeGuy]

So the discussion around our dinner table focused on whether you could accurately predict Δt at typical cruise speeds and hotel loads without actually achieving them - sure, you can set the chillers to max blast but unless you’re making 20kts, can you really see degraded temperature exchange linear to changes in minimal demand?   It’s not like there’s some giant dead load to send the electricity to.   If you’re a Marine Traffic subscriber, look at the historical track data for Crown.  She ain’t going anywhere fast of late - max 10kts over the last two weeks. 
 

In any event, it’s a bad look.  It also makes me twitch a little bit for anyone who is booked on Royal, Sapphire or Diamond early in their returns to service.  Like me.  Who is booked on all three now, including the first Royal back.   I don’t personally care to ever see Ketchikan again in my life, but I don’t want to hear about how missing it is RUINING someone’s DREAM VACATION. 

 

If a day in Ketchikan is your dream, I beg you, dream bigger. 

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by VibeGuy

[OKCruiseMan]

Not happy.

One of the better stops is replaced with a pit stop of a couple of hours.

One stop is cut short and all remaining excursions are booked or more expensive. 

They offer a $100 credit as if that is even close to the impact. An insult.

Victoria was already a late evening stop of little value.

A future cruise credit if offered will do little for a future cruise with inflation.

Not a good way to get back into operation.

At this point I think they should offer to book you on the original itinerary in 2023 at the same rate and offers as booked, and take the ship to the repair shop!

 

[chengkp75]

40 minutes ago, VibeGuy said:

So the discussion around our dinner table focused on whether you could accurately predict Δt at typical cruise speeds and hotel loads without actually achieving them - sure, you can set the chillers to max blast but unless you’re making 20kts, can you really see degraded temperature exchange linear to changes in minimal demand?

Yep, because fouling raises the delta P across the cooler (not sure of your reference to "chiller"), so pressure at the SW pump and cooler inlet is more, while cooler outlet pressure is lower to nil.  We always clean coolers based on high SW pressure alarms, as this indicates blockage of the cooler.  Without water flow, you get no heat transfer, so no cooling.  And, the SW flow through the cooler is the same whether you have one engine idling, or three engines at full load.  The only difference is on the FW side, where at low load the cooling water bypasses the cooler, and at high loads it all goes through the cooler.  Its pretty basic marine engineering, surprised that this caught them unaware.

[VibeGuy]

I meant electrical demand from the refrigeration system compressors.  I suspect other than propulsion they’re the biggest loads onboard and you could use them to sink current. I am not sure how adequately a moored ship or one moving at slow speed with sort of “baseline” hotel loads can get even one 16ZAV40S running all that hard.  
 

   I remain a little unconvinced that ΔP, ΔΤ or ΔF have a known, predictable linearity in the case of non-laminar flows in the cooling system.  Again, dinner table chit chat proposed that things were possibly known to be mildly degraded and then when they got closer to showtime they invoked a test or operational state that said “surprise! - condition gets 8x worse at 4x load”. 
 

In any event, bad form. Bad customer optics.  Bad all around. 

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, VibeGuy said:

I remain a little unconvinced that ΔP, ΔΤ or ΔF have a known, predictable linearity in the case of non-laminar flows in the cooling system.

I'm not much on fluid mechanics these days, but I do know that plate heat exchangers tend to be laminar.  But, again, the SW flow through the cooler is the same at all times, so with less flow (high differential pressure), you get less cooling.  The typical system will operate fine at low SW flows, if the load is low, since the FW cooling loop will bypass the cooler trying to keep the temperature of the FW up.  At high loads, when the bypass valve closes, and all FW flow goes to the cooler, then the lack of SW flow makes its presence known by not cooling the FW sufficiently.  I couldn't tell you if there is a "predictable linearity" between SW flow and cooling, but any marine engineer who has worked more than a year, will know that when the SW pressure rises, the strainers or coolers are fouled, and will need cleaning.  We don't do calculations and theoreticals, we work off learned experience.  

[JeffT237]

18 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Its pretty basic marine engineering, surprised that this caught them unaware.

 

8 minutes ago, VibeGuy said:

things were possibly known to be mildly degraded and then when they got closer to showtime they invoked a test or operational state that said “surprise! - condition gets 8x worse at 4x load”

 

Obviously you guys have a wealth of knowledge and understanding that the average cruiser does not, so in simple terms do you think the early cruises are at risk on the Crown?  Being on the May 7th Crown sailing out of Seattle makes me a little nervous.  My concern has been the ability for the ship to get from SoCal to Seattle with the issues that it is having without encountering anything new.  I realize this would be your opinion only, and honestly as this is our first cruise with Princess I don't have a lot of confidence in them right now.  

 

Thanks

 

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, JeffT237 said:

 

 

Obviously you guys have a wealth of knowledge and understanding that the average cruiser does not, so in simple terms do you think the early cruises are at risk on the Crown?  Being on the May 7th Crown sailing out of Seattle makes me a little nervous.  My concern has been the ability for the ship to get from SoCal to Seattle with the issues that it is having without encountering anything new.  I realize this would be your opinion only, and honestly as this is our first cruise with Princess I don't have a lot of confidence in them right now.  

 

Thanks

 

Given the number of bodies in the engineering department on cruise ships (I've worked as Chief on them), and given the twin engine rooms and redundant cooling systems, if they can't get all the coolers cleared in 6-7 days, there's a bigger problem.  I don't know what speed they are making now, nor what speeds they need to make the future itinerary, but day by day, their capability to make speed should be getting better.

[VibeGuy]

Near-Zero risk of not sailing.  It’s never zero, but I have every confidence in both the vessel and both shoreside and fleet ops to make the right decision where safety is concerned.  The number of entities that would scream bloody murder and stop sailings without a single care  for the commercial concerns of Princess or Carnivore provides a more than adequate margin of assurance that the vessel is fit to sail. 
 

Further changes to itineraries:  higher but still low-ish.   I mean, you’ll still hit Skagway and Glacier Bay, for sure.  You could leave Victoria at 3 am and still make Seattle on time.   Everything else, I don’t think Princess is trying to run on the razor’s edge here, but stuff happens - it remains the Pacific Ocean.  

[VibeGuy]

The most they’ve made in the last two weeks I can see data for is 10.1 knts in any given three-minute AIS window.  
 

To get normal port calls on the 7NT glacier bay itineraries ex-SEA you need to be able to operate over 19 for the open ocean segments. 

[chengkp75]

27 minutes ago, VibeGuy said:

I meant electrical demand from the refrigeration system compressors.  I suspect other than propulsion they’re the biggest loads onboard and you could use them to sink current. I am not sure how adequately a moored ship or one moving at slow speed with sort of “baseline” hotel loads can get even one 16ZAV40S running all that hard.

The Crown has 4 16V and 2 12V engines.  Hotel load takes up about 75-80% load of one 12V, around 6-8Mw.  Low speed will be a combination of 16V and 12V engines, but the system is designed to monitor power demand and remove generators when it calculates that the remaining engines will still be below 75% load.  

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, VibeGuy said:

The most they’ve made in the last two weeks I can see data for is 10.1 knts in any given three-minute AIS window.  
 

To get normal port calls on the 7NT glacier bay itineraries ex-SEA you need to be able to operate over 19 for the open ocean segments. 

Most likely operating on one engine room (2 16V and 1 12V, two SW coolers common to all engines in the space), with marginal cooling in that engine room.  If they clear the two coolers in the other engine room, they should be able to push up to 12-14 knots, with the other engine room secured for cleaning, and then with one cooler in that engine room cleaned, up to 17-18 knots.  Typically, the itinerary speed is set for operating with one engine out of service for maintenance, so they could near the required speed even with only 3 of 4 coolers cleaned.  They will have to watch this, and likely be cleaning them more frequently over the next weeks, as stuff that is in the piping breaks loose and fouls the coolers again.

 

This has been going on for two weeks, already?  Where was the ship laid up?  Warm or cold water?  They may be experiencing fouling die-off caused by a change in water temperature, with the shells of the mollusks breaking off as they die, and fouling the coolers.  Yeah, that could take a couple weeks, but you set up and have teams ready to take a cooler offline and clean it as quickly as possible.

 

I seem to remember a Princess ship that came down from Alaska and started a Mexican itinerary, and had a couple of weeks of mollusk die-off that affected engine performance.

Edited April 28, 2022 by chengkp75